How can science "explain" miracles?

[jonmichael818]

My question is I hear about miracles every day, but it seems the non believers ignore them or makr make excuses on how the "miracle" happened. So how can they say miracles aren't real?

Miracles must be proven, not seen by some or talked about by others.

A good example I tell them is when I was a teen people came to me with prayer requests because my prayers always got answered.

Prove it!

One day my dads friend came over and asked for prayer for a little girl who had cancer. She was days away from dying and there was no hope for her at all. I believe she was in a coma too. ANyways, I prayed for her that night and a few hours later in the morning the friend called crying because the girl was talking and feeling great. They scanned for cancer and didn't understand because there was no cancer anymore! Even the doctor said it had to be miriacle.

IFFFF? That really happened??? I will even give you the benefit of the doubt. Lets say it did happen, how can you prove that it was supernatural? More than likely what would happen is that we would find that there is something natural about it. However unlikely about it, or even so uncarcinogenic about it, there is something that took place!
Something took place did it not? Can you explain it?

Maybe it did happen?

Can we explain it even if we saw it? NO! But because it is unexplained, means nothing!
Countless things throughout history where unexplainable, but now they are.

I'd love to see a miracle where someone gets an arm cut off, but on the way to the hospital the arm reataches and is healed. I'd like to see science explain that!

I would love to see it also!!

 

[ranunculus]

A christian will tell they know what started and when the universe started. Athiest will give you varied answers as the years go on because they "guess". The sometime have instruments that they assume are correct. Science is about thoerizing and guessin. Its not always right. I love to say that how right can science be who it changes it mind constantly? 1,000 years ago science assumed the world was flat.

Just in case you're serious.
Correcting ones mistakes leads to a better understanding of the world around them. By eliminating the number of false beliefs and maximizing the number of true beliefs, you get the most accurate picture of reality.
When your teacher used to give your homework back with red lines all over it, did you plug your ears and go lalalala? Or did you change your mind, e.g. correct your mistakes and learn from them in order to gain a better understanding of reality?
Which person has the most accurate beliefs? The one who never changed his mind, not even when new data is presented that conflicts with his views? Or the one who did change his mind when he's proven wrong?
And by the way a christian can claim he knows the explanation for the universe. If the answer is god did it, he hasn't explained anything.

Currently science has all kinds of "theories" about space. And yet in another 200 years most of those theories will change a bit as always.

Yes changed, as in corrected to more accurately portray reality, to conform to the best possible explanation for reality.
Newton's law of universal gravitation is flawed, It's good enough to put a man on the moon but not good enough to make a GPS work. But just because newton wasn't 100% correct, doesn't mean he was 100% wrong and didn't know what he was talking about.

I cannot believe I'm explaining why learning is good! It's got to be a poe.

 

[Jazer]

Oh thank you! I was starting to doubt that, Jazer has spoken like this here for days without a single Christian speaking up against him.

Jesus talks about how half the bridesmaids will be left behind. If there is no rapture and no tribulation then I would agree with you, my approach would not be justified. Also what use would it be if I could not communicate my point? That would also be a waste of time if the message got lost in the translation. What about Haiti? Was David Wilkerson justified to deliver the message he did, in light of the tragedy that was about to hit Haiti? Tragedy so severe that it would cause a lot of trouble if I posted photos. Should people not be warned when something like that is coming? Just like they want us to ignore that there was a Holocaust in Germany. Never mind that I have very close personal friends that went though that Holocaust and were even in concentration camps. We are suppose to ignore that and keep our mouth shut. So if you want to be a Polyanna, that is up to you. But do not expect that I am going to be that way. Otherwise if it is all the same to you then I will be on my way because there would be no reason for me to be here. If there is a rapture then the resurrection power of God would be working in your life right now to prepare you for that rapture. If the power of God is not at work in you, then the chance is good that you will be left behind and you will see the tribulation period.

President Bush felt justified to fight a war in Afganistan and in Iraq because of the twin towers, but I am banned from talking about it. Go figure. Was it in vain that Amerian soldiers, men and women had arms and legs blown off or their face burned off? But if it offends someone, then we are not allowed to talk about it? If someone is offended by the LA arsenist then we are not allowed to talk about it? Perhaps if you can learn from the tragedy of others then you can avoid having to experence tragedy for yourself.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Its bad I won't be here when the rapture happens. I'd like to see people explain what just happened! Although many non-believers told me "if" it happened they woudn't believe it. I asked them "And when God descends from heaven?". They said they wouldn't believe it either, it could be anyone.

Obviously they just like to find reasons to ignore the truth. Whats sad is they don't see we are not cramming God down their throats because were being mean. We are doing it because we don't them to suffer when they die. But they tend to skip the fact we care for them.

 

[Farinata]

Should people not be warned when something like that is coming?

What I was objecting to was the way you seemed to imply that because we haven't found a cure for Stephen Hawking's MND then that means he's a spiritually unfit human being (whatever that means). But let me leave that aside.

I actually 100% agree with you. If it turns out you're right, that the rapture is coming, that unbelievers will be cast into a lake of fire to burn for all eternity, that by saying a sinner's prayer I can safeguard my eternal soul, then you are absolutely justified in preaching and proselytizing. This information would be something I'd want to know. The problem is there is zero reason to believe that any of that is true and essentially all existing evidence drastically undercuts that narrative.

 

[ranunculus]

Its bad I won't be here when the rapture happens. I'd like to see people explain what just happened! Although many non-believers told me "if" it happened they woudn't believe it. I asked them "And when God descends from heaven?". They said they wouldn't believe it either, it could be anyone.

Obviously they just like to find reasons to ignore the truth. Whats sad is they don't see we are not cramming God down their throats because were being mean. We are doing it because we don't them to suffer when they die. But they tend to skip the fact we care for them.

Its bad I won't be here when Ragnarok happens. I'd like to see people explain what just happened! Although many christians told me "if" it happened they wouldn't believe it. I asked them "And when Odin descends from Asgard?". They said they wouldn't believe it either, it could be anyone.

Obviously they just like to find reasons to ignore the truth. Whats sad is they don't see we are not cramming Odin down their throats because were being mean. We are doing it because we don't them to suffer when they die. But they tend to skip the fact we care for them.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Then show me what he has accomplished other than to promote the atheistic agenda. If science is so wonderful why is he still sick. Why has science not cured whatever disease it is he has? Is this an example of where your not suppose to read a book by it's cover? I got red flags going off all over the place and your saying ignore them ignore them. Now even he admits that he was wrong. Let's quit talking about the man and tell me what you think he has accomplished. What makes you think that he is so brilliant and accomplished?

Hawking has done brilliant work with black holes, cosmology, and quantum gravity. And on top of that, he popularized his work for laypeople with his wonderful popular science books, including A Brief History of Time.

He has Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, one of the worst diseases a human being can be subjected to (in my opinion). You are a rather heartless person to mock him for that.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Problem with trying to make it look like all religions are the same is....they aren't. Christianity is the only one that has any historical fact to it. People DID see Jesus. There were plagues...etc. Even other cultures mention things that are in the bible. No religion, such as the the Norse "mythology", has any proof it existed...at all. And no countries seem to have any histroical evidence of any events taking place. Again, only christianity does.

Its ok though. I've had some debates with people that were full of fire. I end debates easily. I say a few things such as:

You cannot prove god doesn't exist. I cannot prove he does (depsite evidence). So I guess its a stalemate. Why keep talking about it?

Another thing I say is the whole 50/50 thing. If I were wrong when I die. I will not know because I will see nothing. If I am right, I see heaven. If you die, you will either see nothing or see hell. Which odds sound better to you? Its win/win for me! For you its win/lose.

Lastly I say I let atheists win. After all they want that feeling of "Ha I was right! I win!". I don't care what they choose to believe, because for now they can pretend they have accomplished something by telling me whats real and whats not. But in the end I, for lack of better terms, have the last laugh!

You get stuck trying to expain to God why you denied him. You may tell him "But...but...there was no proof you were real!", God will say "There was enough, but you ignored it or chose science to make it look like it was fake!". Then you say "Well how come you didn't give me a chance? Why am I going to hell?" God replies, "You had many chances, when people talked about me, you rejected them and me. You chose your outcome!"

I will say I use to get annoyed to no end when I would debate. But now that I am older I isntead laugh at debates because of how petty it is really. Wasting years or maybe even your whole life taunting christians and trying to show God is not real. All that anger in one life time. You could have been doing something useful in life.

Now you might say I waste time too by preaching about God. But the things is I don't waste time like you. I don't even have to speak to someone really. Someone can hear about my life story and become a christian. Where as you have to work every second of the day to get your point across.

::ignores topic so other person can feel superior::

---edit---
I wanted to point something out. I couldn't help but notice alot of the topics you go into are about miracles and/or faith. Something tells me something tragic must have happened in your life and you are blaming God for not doing something about it. So therefor you ridicule those who did have miracles happen because you can't stand they have such faith and it worked out for them. Not that you admit such a thing after all. Just saying...

 

[ranunculus]

Problem with trying to make it look like all religions are the same is....they aren't. Christianity is the only one that has any historical fact to it. People DID see Jesus. There were plagues...etc. Even other cultures mention things that are in the bible. No religion, such as the the Norse "mythology", has any proof it existed...at all. And no countries seem to have any histroical evidence of any events taking place. Again, only christianity does.

Nice smokescreen
Christianity doesn't have historical facts supporting it. The fact that real places or people are mentioned in the bible doesn't justify the miracle claims any more than the existence of new york proves that spiderman is real.
Citing Josephus or Tacitus as proof for the divinity of Jesus is useless since they weren't contemporaries, there have been at least some interpolations and text alone isn't sufficient to believe miracle claims.
I'm willing to accept there was a historical Jesus because Josephus for example mentions James, the brother of Jesus. But why should I accept the miracle accounts?

Its ok though. I've had some debates with people that were full of fire. I end debates easily. I say a few things such as:

You cannot prove god doesn't exist. I cannot prove he does (depsite evidence). So I guess its a stalemate. Why keep talking about it?

If a claim cannot be demonstrated to be either true or false, the logical step is to disbelieve the claim. So the question is: why do you believe in god?

Another thing I say is the whole 50/50 thing. If I were wrong when I die. I will not know because I will see nothing. If I am right, I see heaven. If you die, you will either see nothing or see hell. Which odds sound better to you? Its win/win for me! For you its win/lose.

Pascal's wager is a logical fallacy for about 4 or 5 different reasons. The one I like most is that it's just hedging your bets. It's not authentic. I'm sure god is going to be really happy you used him as an insurance policy. I'm sure he'd pat you on the back for trying to fool him.

Lastly I say I let atheists win. After all they want that feeling of "Ha I was right! I win!". I don't care what they choose to believe, because for now they can pretend they have accomplished something by telling me whats real and whats not. But in the end I, for lack of better terms, have the last laugh!

When I debate someone, I know I won't change their minds. I let the strength of the argument speak for itself so the people who read this besides you and me can decide for themselves which has the most merit.

You get stuck trying to expain to God why you denied him. You may tell him "But...but...there was no proof you were real!", God will say "There was enough, but you ignored it or chose science to make it look like it was fake!". Then you say "Well how come you didn't give me a chance? Why am I going to hell?" God replies, "You had many chances, when people talked about me, you rejected them and me. You chose your outcome!"

Yawn. Idle threats....

I will say I use to get annoyed to no end when I would debate. But now that I am older I isntead laugh at debates because of how petty it is really. Wasting years or maybe even your whole life taunting christians and trying to show God is not real. All that anger in one life time. You could have been doing something useful in life.

Trying to construct logical arguments in a language that isn't my mother tongue helps me grow and learn something new everytime.

Now you might say I waste time too by preaching about God. But the things is I don't waste time like you. I don't even have to speak to someone really. Someone can hear about my life story and become a christian. Where as you have to work every second of the day to get your point across.

::ignores topic so other person can feel superior::

I know for a fact the are people who have lost their faith thanks to rational thought and reasoned arguments.
(23 minutes) "This is how I discovered truth. My name is Chris and I'm an Ex Mormon." - YouTube

---edit---
I wanted to point something out. I couldn't help but notice alot of the topics you go into are about miracles and/or faith. Something tells me something tragic must have happened in your life and you are blaming God for not doing something about it. So therefor you ridicule those who did have miracles happen because you can't stand they have such faith and it worked out for them. Not that you admit such a thing after all. Just saying...

Haha, this is my signature from now on.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Its bad I won't be here when the rapture happens. I'd like to see people explain what just happened!

OTOH, we actually have seen what happens when the rapture, end times etc don't happen. Quite often in fact. Take this Camping fellow as a recent, prominent example. What a moron.

 

[Jazer]

Its bad I won't be here when the rapture happens. I'd like to see people explain what just happened!

I think that the moment after the rapture takes place the Muslims will declare WW3. There will be so much wide spread destruction everywhere that people will not notice that the church is no longer here. After all only half the church will be taken. The other half will be left behind to go into the tribulation period. The age of Grace will have come to an end. It will no longer be the church age. We will be under the law and that is what people want.

 

[CabVet]

I think that the moment after the rapture takes place the Muslims will declare WW3.

Yes, it's all the Muslim's fault. I say we convert them before they start WW3.

Amazing, simply amazing.

 

[sandwiches]

Maybe its just as simple as there are no mind blowing miracles like an arm reattaching simply because then it would (to some degree) prove it had to be God. And if we have proof, then we might be a little more....lazy in what we do.

I know people always ask me why doens't god just show himself. I said its because of faith. If we "knew" he existed we wouldn't have to work so hard to be like Jesus. True we would still be requierd to, but most wouldn't because they seen God, therefor why work so hard for it if you know its real! Or at least thats how I was taught.

I thought miracles were supposed evidence of God...

Now, you're saying they're not? If not, why not?

 

[Phred]

At a previus forum I went to made up of MANY diffrent people (christians, atheists, wiccans, spirtualists...etc) they would try to explain miracles and things like the "light" you see in near death experiences.

My question is I hear about miracles every day, but it seems the non believers ignore them or makr make excuses on how the "miracle" happened. So how can they say miracles aren't real?

A good example I tell them is when I was a teen people came to me with prayer requests because my prayers always got answered. One day my dads friend came over and asked for prayer for a little girl who had cancer. She was days away from dying and there was no hope for her at all. I believe she was in a coma too. ANyways, I prayed for her that night and a few hours later in the morning the friend called crying because the girl was talking and feeling great. They scanned for cancer and didn't understand because there was no cancer anymore! Even the doctor said it had to be miriacle.

How can someone explain that scientificly and say it was not a miracle?!? I'd love to see a miracle where someone gets an arm cut off, but on the way to the hospital the arm reataches and is healed. I'd like to see science explain that!

Pick an amputee. A deserving one. One from the Iraq war perhaps. Pray for him/her to regrow that limb. Pray really hard.

Now... when that person doesn't regrow that limb you tell me why your prayer didn't get answered.

Maybe you didn't have enough people praying? Get a whole bunch of you guys to pray. Pray really hard.

When the limb doesn't regrow you tell me why.

See, most "miracles" have natural explanations. Those that don't are either imaginary (such as the arm that reattached on the way to the hospital) or just made up.

But here's another way to convince people of "miracles". HOW do they happen? What force is used to make them happen? How did that little girl's cancer get removed from her body? No, not "goddidit" because that's not an answer. If you believe that a god did that then HOW did a god do that? Did he remove every cancerous cell from her body? HOW? What energy was used to zap them or did this god pluck each one out individually? Where did they go? EXPLAIN the miracle and you will convince a lot of people. Thing is, you guys never have explanations for these so-called "miracles". Because you never know what really happened.

How's that amputee coming?

 

[Jazer]

Yes, it's all the Muslim's fault. I say we convert them before they start WW3.

Amazing, simply amazing.

Actually it is Russia that has the weapons of destruction. I just think that somewhere along the way Russia will sell the weapons to the Muslims in exchange for their oil money. Of course weapon sales is big business. Russia, China and the USA all cash in on the sale of weapons of war. Of course you want to ignore all of that. WE can understand that people are not comfortable having to deal with disaster and war. When I was young I made a decision not to be a part of the war at the time. But I suppose everyone has their choices to make. There are young people today that made a decision to go to Iraq and Afganistan to fight against the Muslims. Some of them paid with their life, some of them just gave an arm or a leg. Do you feel what they did was in vain and that they should not have gone?

 

[Jazer]

Pick an amputee. A deserving one. One from the Iraq war perhaps. Pray for him/her to regrow that limb. Pray really hard.

Do you realize that you are trying to tell God what to do? Maybe you should allow Him to be God. I know this is difficult for you to grasp the concept. But He does know what He is doing. The world is a mess, but HE is doing a work to get it all straightened out.

 

[hollyda]

Do you realize that you are trying to tell God what to do? Maybe you should allow Him to be God. I know this is difficult for you to grasp the concept. But He does know what He is doing. The world is a mess, but HE is doing a work to get it all straightened out.

If praying for an amputee to regenerate limbs constitutes "telling" God what to do, why pray for anything? After all, if you're letting "God be God", and praying won't change whatever his will is, what's the point?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Do you realize that you are trying to tell God what to do? Maybe you should allow Him to be God. I know this is difficult for you to grasp the concept. But He does know what He is doing. The world is a mess, but HE is doing a work to get it all straightened out.

Then stop praying for anything. God's will be done, after all. If you're only allowed to pray for things to happen that could happen naturally, what's the point?

I thought the point of miracles was that they were things that didn't happen naturally, and only a supernatural explanation could explain it. Mighty suspicious to a skeptic if your God's "miracles" can be explained rationally rather easily.

 

[Phred]

Do you realize that you are trying to tell God what to do? Maybe you should allow Him to be God. I know this is difficult for you to grasp the concept. But He does know what He is doing. The world is a mess, but HE is doing a work to get it all straightened out.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Do you realize an atheist knows your Bible better than you do? I'm not praying for it, a true Christian believer is praying for it. And it's not some trivial thing, it's for a war veteran to regrow his severed limb. The Bible promises that if someone asks and believes they shall get it then they will.

But this time, instead of praying for something hidden, something that is out of sight and something that can have a natural explanation, I'm suggesting they pray for something that can have only ONE explanation. A miracle.

And you know what? It won't happen. It won't happen because there is no god there to make it happen. No matter how hard you pray, no matter how long you pray and no matter how many of you pray. God doesn't hate amputees... God doesn't exist. Just like Zeus, just like Mithras, just like Osiris. Not really there. Never was, never will be. You only have to look at the stubs of an amputee every time one goes by. Because they are never healed no matter how much prayer takes place.

I know it's a difficult concept for you to grasp.

 

[Greg1234]

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father." (John 4:3)

James 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." (James 4:3)

And it's not some trivial thing, it's for a war veteran to regrow his severed limb.

How about we resurrect him instead?