Electric suns, solar flares and coronal mass ejections.

[Michael]

Just over 100 years ago, Kristian Birkeland conducted a series of experiments related to "cathode sun theory".

PICTURES UNIVERSE ELECTRIFIED SPACE - Prof. Birkeland of Norway Holds That Suns and Stars Are Charged Negatively. - Article - NYTimes.com

In his experiments, Birkeland recreated and scientifically "predicted" a number of key solar behaviors, including the release of both positive and negative particles in high speed solar wind events, coronal loops, solar "jets" and variety of behaviors that we now see in solar satellite images of the sun.

Birkeland's original interest in cathode sun theories began with his interest in the Aurora. During his lifetime he helped to establish a series of magnetic field measuring stations so he could track the effect of solar storms on the Earth's magnetic field.

Much of Birkeland's work was quite literally ignored/set aside until the 70's when spacecraft launched into space confirmed his theories related to aurora and the currents flowing through the poles of the earth.

Hannes Alfven did in fact take notice of Birkeland's work, and extended and expressed many of Birkeland's ideas in terms of MHD theory (magnetohydrodynamics theory), including the concept of coronal loops as "circuits".

A recent paper by Mann and Onel apply Alfven's circuit orientation to solar flare events, and include a host of actual satellite images to support that view.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0908/0908.0813v1.pdf

IMO, this "electrical" orientation to solar flare events is a highly productive way of viewing solar flare events. All bodies in the solar system with an atmosphere and a magnetic field experience "electrical discharges" in their atmosphere, and the sun has the largest of both. It's only natural that it would experience the largest electrical discharges in our solar system.

 

[Michael]

http://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/assets/img/dailymov/2011/12/25/20111225_1024_0131.mpg

FYI, last Christmas day the sun experience both types of coronal mass ejection processes, and several solar flare events. If you watch this video closely, you'll notice the sun experience two "dark filament eruptions", one at the very beginning of the day, actually as the day begins, and another at around 7:30. Both of the filament eruptions occur at around the 2:30 position on the clock. Both events occur nearer the center of the disk rather than near the limb.

This is followed by a series of high energy "electrical discharges" events (AKA MR events) from an active region in the southern hemisphere.

 

[Blayz]

When does the point of this thread arrive?

 

[Michael]

When does the point of this thread arrive?

The point was primarily educational in nature.

It's also an "electro"magnetic presentation of solar events rather than a "magnetic" view as portrayed in most "mainstream" presentations of events.

 

[Michael]

http://spaceweather.com/images2012/02jan11/farside2_fulldisk.jpg

SpaceWeather.com -- News and information about meteor showers, solar flares, auroras, and near-Earth asteroids

AR 1384 erupted in a way that is consistent with a dark filament eruption. The sun is definitely moving towards it's most active phase at this point.

 

[Blayz]

The point was primarily educational in nature.

It's also an "electro"magnetic presentation of solar events rather than a "magnetic" view as portrayed in most "mainstream" presentations of events.

Show me one "mainstream" presentation where events are portrayed as magnetic rather than "electro" magnetic.

 

[Michael]

Show me one "mainstream" presentation where events are portrayed as magnetic rather than "electro" magnetic.

Show me a half dozen mainstream papers that talk about the charge separation at the bases of the coronal loops like Alfven, and like that paper I cited by Mann and Onel.

 

[Loudmouth]

Michael,

Are you claiming that the energy given off by the Sun is not driven by nuclear fusion reactions in the core of the Sun?

 

[Blayz]

Show me a half dozen mainstream papers that talk about the charge separation at the bases of the coronal loops like Alfven, and like that paper I cited by Mann and Onel.

Why should I? I'm not the one making outrageous unsubstantiated claims, you are.

So I repeat. Back up your claim with some evidence.

 

[Michael]

Why should I?

Because if you did, you'd realize what I told you was true.

I'm not the one making outrageous unsubstantiated claims, you are.

True, but I cannot disprove a negative. Most mainstream papers related to CME's and solar flares are 'dumbed down' to a "magnetic" (B) orientation to plasma physics (MHD theory), with little or no regard to the electric or E orientation as described by Alfven. Few if any papers mention voltages, amperes, charge separation, or anything of the sort.

So I repeat. Back up your claim with some evidence.

I repeat that I cannot disprove a negative. If you can find E oriented papers related to solar flare events and CME events, please post them. I can't find very many of them other than the Mann and Onel paper. The few I've found relate to EARLY work from the likes of DUNGEY, and the likes of Alfven and Peratt, but almost none of the current papers address these issues from an E orientation.

 

[Nabobalis]

Equivalent Electric Circuit Models of Coronal Magnetic Loops and Related Oscillatory Phenomena on the Sun

Abstract

Coronal loops, which trace closed magnetic field lines, are the primary structural elements of the solar atmosphere. Complex dynamics of solar coronal magnetic loops, together with action of possible subphotospheric dynamo mechanisms, turn the majority of the coronal loops into current-carrying structures. In that connection none of the loops can be considered as isolated from the surroundings. The current-carrying loops moving relative to each other interact via the magnetic field and currents. One of the ways to take into account this interaction consists in application of the equivalent electric circuit models of coronal loops. According to these models, each loop is considered as an equivalent electric LCR-circuit with variable inductive coefficients L, capacitance C, and resistance R, which depend on shape, scale, position of the loop with respect to neighbouring loops, as well as on the plasma parameters in the magnetic tube. Such an approach enables to describe the process of electric current dynamics in the groups of coronal loops, as well as the related dynamical, energy release and radiation processes. In the present paper we describe the major principles of LCR-circuit models of coronal magnetic loops, and show their application for interpretation of the observed oscillatory phenomena in the loops and in the related radiation.

 

[Loudmouth]

For those who are interested, Mr. Mozina has already been shown why his ideas are wrong. You can check it out here:

Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares) - Page 78 - JREF Forum

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Wow, this guy surely gets around in the physics forum communities...

I was Michael Mozina'd.

 

[Michael]

Equivalent Electric Circuit Models of Coronal Magnetic Loops and Related Oscillatory Phenomena on the Sun

Cool. Five more to go.

 

[Michael]

For those who are interested, Mr. Mozina has already been shown why his ideas are wrong. You can check it out here:

Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares) - Page 78 - JREF Forum

Er, no. That crew is essentially the "EU haters" club. They spend all their time attacking the individual rather than addressing the actual topic. In fact the core "haters" are *STILL* convinced that "electrical discharges" are "impossible" in a plasma even though Dungey himself associated "electrical discharges" with the term "magnetic reconnection". That's essentially the equivalent of saying it's "impossible" for the earth to be round, it has to be flat.

 

[Michael]

FYI the 'circuit' and 'electrical discharge' orientation of plasma physics goes all the way back to Kristian Birkeland. Alfven also preferred a circuit oriented approach to all solar flare events. What Loudmouth calls "wrong" has actually been empirically demonstrated in a lab. In fact electrical discharges have been associated with solar flare events since Dungey first coined the term "magnetic reconnection".

 

[Michael]

1958IAUS....6..135D Page 135

FYI, Dungey himself associated the term "magnetic reconnection" with an "electrical discharge" event in plasma.

 

[Loudmouth]

Er, no. That crew is essentially the "EU haters" club. They spend all their time attacking the individual rather than addressing the actual topic. In fact the core "haters" are *STILL* convinced that "electrical discharges" are "impossible" in a plasma even though Dungey himself associated "electrical discharges" with the term "magnetic reconnection". That's essentially the equivalent of saying it's "impossible" for the earth to be round, it has to be flat.

Are you saying it is impossible for the Sun to produce energy through nuclear fusion?

 

[Michael]

Are you saying it is impossible for the Sun to produce energy through nuclear fusion?

No, in fact quite the opposite. What does that have to do with electrical discharges in plasma and circuit theory as it relates to solar flare events?

 

[Loudmouth]

FYI the 'circuit' and 'electrical discharge' orientation of plasma physics goes all the way back to Kristian Birkeland. Alfven also preferred a circuit oriented approach to all solar flare events. What Loudmouth calls "wrong" has actually been empirically demonstrated in a lab. In fact electrical discharges have been associated with solar flare events since Dungey first coined the term "magnetic reconnection".

But is the idea right? Are Alfven and Birkeland wrong? You never want to seem to discuss that, or even the physics involved. Instead, you revert back to "Alfven says so" for all answers. Tim Thompson said it best:

When people make a scientific argument, they present facts & reasonable interpretations thereof. Mozina does neither of these, but instead appeals to authority ("All he can ever say is "Afven said so", a religious acolyte parroting the ancient script of the demi-god."). Demi-god is Mozina's attitude towards Alfven (and Birkeland as well). He treats the writings of both in exactly the same way that literalists interpret holy scripture: Divine truth that cannot ever be challenged in any way. That is definitely a religious attitude. But in true science we all understand that even the most brilliant people can be wrong, and often are. Witness Einstein's rejection of quantum mechanics. Certainly Einstein was brilliant and certainly he did not engage in pseudoscience. But he certainly was wrong.

Mozina has never once, in all these years, even tried to present anything one might call a "scientific" argument. He avoids mathematics like the plague, which severely cripples his ability to argue anything. He occasionally refers to real data (e.g, SERTS data) but badly misinterprets its physical meaning. He puts a great deal of effort into examining press release images (rarely the science data from which they are derived) and then interpreting the pictures as proof positive that the entire discipline of physics is dead wrong, from one end to the other. And if he is challenged to support his own claims, he appeals the inerrant scripture ("Alfven said so") as proof positive that he cannot possibly be wrong. He tries to mimic science in some crude way, but fails miserably.

You aren't interested in actually discussing the physics. If you can show otherwise I would be interested in a discussion.