Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles

[Avodat]

Ok, what I mean is this. Would you quote the part about God writing the law on human hearts, to Gentiles, using that New Covenant verse? SH.

Yes, but please note also - this is just one part of G_d's equation for the world. As with all mathematical equations, you can't achieve the true answer unless you work out ALL the parts in the right sequence., including any that are in brackets. The new covenant by Yeshua's birth was meant for the Jews with the Gentiles coming into the equation at Epiphany - think of the banquet in Scripture in which G_d invites all the Jews but they do not come, so he widens the invite to gentiles as well. There's a difference between G_d's intention for his chosen people and the reality of their rejection of Yeshua - Paul saw this and told those Jews he was talking to that he was going to take the message of the new covenant to the Gentiles (and various parts of Scripture with the same message). Please note this does NOT mean that G_d has rejected the Jews. That would be heresy.

 

[Seeking Him]

Yes, but please note also - this is just one part of G_d's equation for the world. As with all mathematical equations, you can't achieve the true answer unless you work out ALL the parts in the right sequence., including any that are in brackets. The new covenant by Yeshua's birth was meant for the Jews with the Gentiles coming into the equation at Epiphany - think of the banquet in Scripture in which G_d invites all the Jews but they do not come, so he widens the invite to gentiles as well. There's a difference between G_d's intention for his chosen people and the reality of their rejection of Yeshua - Paul saw this and told those Jews he was talking to that he was going to take the message of the new covenant to the Gentiles (and various parts of Scripture with the same message). Please note this does NOT mean that G_d has rejected the Jews. That would be heresy.

Ok, but just so I understand you. That means you think the New Covenant, is active now, active since the cross, for Gentiles now, and they are quite literally in it, not just symbolically, or anything like that, in other words in the exact same way Jews are and will be?

And also, would that mean as of the cross and resurrection, Gentiles are bound to the full Mosaic law?

My secondary point is, what laws are being written, on the hearts of the Gentiles, are they different than what would be written on a Jewish heart? Thanks for your reply. SH.

 

[Seeking Him]

Yes, but please note also - this is just one part of G_d's equation for the world. As with all mathematical equations, you can't achieve the true answer unless you work out ALL the parts in the right sequence., including any that are in brackets. The new covenant by Yeshua's birth was meant for the Jews with the Gentiles coming into the equation at Epiphany - think of the banquet in Scripture in which G_d invites all the Jews but they do not come, so he widens the invite to gentiles as well. There's a difference between G_d's intention for his chosen people and the reality of their rejection of Yeshua - Paul saw this and told those Jews he was talking to that he was going to take the message of the new covenant to the Gentiles (and various parts of Scripture with the same message). Please note this does NOT mean that G_d has rejected the Jews. That would be heresy.

Inother words , it has to all work, for Jew and Gentile to be in the same Covenant. The Jews must have been in it as of the cross, so the Gentiles must have been in it, then also. And it has to be the same laws, yet that would bind the Gentiles to Judaism if it were the same Mosaic laws being written, and we see historically that was not the case, the church did not live under the Mosaic law, Jews and Gentiles. SH

 

[visionary]

This is what God says,

Jeremiah 6:1 Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths , where is the good way, and walk therein, and you shall find rest for your souls.

 

[visionary]

Inother words , it has to all work, for Jew and Gentile to be in the same Covenant. The Jews must have been in it as of the cross, so the Gentiles must have been in it, then also. And it has to be the same laws, yet that would bind the Gentiles to Judaism if it were the same Mosaic laws being written, and we see historically that was not the case, the church did not live under the Mosaic law, Jews and Gentiles. SH

We're are not good, but the law is holy, the commandment holy, just and good. And The Lord will help to obey Gods law, not throw it out. Throwing it out would not make sense to me. How can i throw something out that is good and holy?

 

[Avodat]

Inother words , it has to all work, for Jew and Gentile to be in the same Covenant. The Jews must have been in it as of the cross, so the Gentiles must have been in it, then also. And it has to be the same laws, yet that would bind the Gentiles to Judaism if it were the same Mosaic laws being written, and we see historically that was not the case, the church did not live under the Mosaic law, Jews and Gentiles. SH

But it doesn't make Jews into Gentiles or gentiles into Jews. In Christ we are all one. It would not bind the Gentiles to Judaism - it would bind them to G_d. This is a very important distinction. Peter discovered the truth in the incident with the blanket, the truth that G_d makes no distinction, as Paul also discovered. All who are willing to have Torah written on their heart of flesh (not stone) are equal in his sight. But universalism is NOT what G_d wants - his way is very exclusive in that you have to believe in him with your heart and confess him with your lips.

What the Church did, historically, does not mean that they got the equation right as we understand the equation today. They got part of the answer but it did not quite fit the whole sum. In order to make it 'work' and to find an answer, they came up with Replacement Theology, taking all the blessings but heaping the curses on Jews! Just as in mathematics, sometimes in takes generations to 'see' the missing key to a very complex set of data, so we are only now beginning to see the key to what Scripture says. If we jump in and impose our own data we shall get it wrong again!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But it doesn't make Jews into Gentiles or gentiles into Jews. In Christ we are all one. It would not bind the Gentiles to Judaism - it would bind them to G_d. This is a very important distinction. Peter discovered the truth in the incident with the blanket, the truth that G_d makes no distinction, as Paul also discovered. All who are willing to have Torah written on their heart of flesh (not stone) are equal in his sight. But universalism is NOT what G_d wants - his way is very exclusive in that you have to believe in him with your heart and confess him with your lips.

What the Church did, historically, does not mean that they got the equation right as we understand the equation today. They got part of the answer but it did not quite fit the whole sum. In order to make it 'work' and to find an answer, they came up with Replacement Theology, taking all the blessings but heaping on the curses on Jews!
Just as in mathematics, sometimes in takes generations to 'see' the missing key to a very complex set of data, so we are only now beginning to see the key to what Scripture says. If we jump in and impose our own data we shall get it wrong again!

Yeah.
A favorite Christian commentator of mine was accused of that, along with being anti-semitic

http://www.christianforums.com/t7428159/
Replacement theology? . . .what is it?

J Preston Eby, Eby minstry, Eby heresies, Eby writings, Preston Eby, Manifest Sons of God heresy, Latter Rain heresy

The anti-semitic MSOG movement that Eby claims to govern his ministry incorrectly and boldly appropriates the title "elect" from that of the remnant of Israel described during the Tribulation's Time of Jacob's Trouble, and applies it to themselves in true Replacement Theology fashion.

Eby's writing ministry includes a monthly message titled Kingdom Bible Studies Table of Contents as well as a number of booklets on various subjects. We discuss this subject below.

Eby attempts to carry the OT priesthood in Israel to the current day church.

This is classical Replacement Theology and incorrectly appropriates the program that God set up for Israel prior to the time of the Cross when Jesus Christ became our priest and mediator between man and God.

 

[visionary]

However, the goal of every Messianic Believer is to return to the Faith once delivered.

 

[Lulav]

If his laws were already written upon our hearts, we wouldn't even need a reason to have this forum, would we?

I believe that the 'active part' or 'role' we have in this is in turning our own will over to his. When we have done that, that is when he can 'reprogram' us to always walk in the right way that will bring us eternal life with him.

We won't have to think about it,
we won't have to talk about it,
there will be no misunderstanding of what he wants, we will just..................

BE.

Be, In harmony with each other and with Him. This I believe is the 'one' that Yeshua spoke of.

 

[Avodat]

If his laws were already written upon our hearts, we wouldn't even need a reason to have this forum, would we?

I believe that the 'active part' or 'role' we have in this is in turning our own will over to his. When we have done that, that is when he can 'reprogram' us to always walk in the right way that will bring us eternal life with him.

We won't have to think about it,
we won't have to talk about it,
there will be no misunderstanding of what he wants, we will just..................

BE.

Be, In harmony with each other and with Him. This I believe is the 'one' that Yeshua spoke of.

You are still missing the point! His desire for us was and is that his word would be written on our hearts but that has not been the case, hence the arrival of Yeshua to show us:
a) that it can be done
b) that it is a joy and brings life
c) that in this way only can a real relationship with G_d be made possible
d) yes, we would not say one to other learn about the Lord because all would know
e) If it happened then, truly, Jerusalem would be able to say baruch haba bashem Adonai - and really mean it and Messiah would return (as he said)
f) CF would, indeed, have no purpose any longer - given that it exists we have manifestly failed in achieving G_d's desire for us.


That we haven't achieved it doesn't give a de facto case that he didn't intend us to write it on our hearts

 

[rsduncan]

If his laws were already written upon our hearts, we wouldn't even need a reason to have this forum, would we?

I believe that the 'active part' or 'role' we have in this is in turning our own will over to his. When we have done that, that is when he can 'reprogram' us to always walk in the right way that will bring us eternal life with him.

We won't have to think about it,
we won't have to talk about it,
there will be no misunderstanding of what he wants, we will just..................

BE.

Be, In harmony with each other and with Him. This I believe is the 'one' that Yeshua spoke of.

Another question - What are we to do with this verse:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

???

 

[visionary]

We are a work in progress at this stage, Lulav points to a time when we will be like "one of us" that God talked about in

Gen3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Knowing both good and evil and choosing the good.

 

[Brandon4Rangers]

sort of like saying the Constitution and Bill of Rights isn't for Jews, ain't it?

 

[yedida]

When one starts using divisions, it gets confusing.

 

[Avodat]

We are a work in progress at this stage, Lulav points to a time when we will be like "one of us" that God talked about in Knowing both good and evil and choosing the good.

But that is just what G_d did NOT want to happen, in my Bible, at least! On the other hand he DID want, expect, us to have scripture embedded in our hearts, as Moses (and others) said.

 

[yedida]

But that is just what G_d did NOT want to happen, in my Bible, at least! On the other hand he DID want, expect, us to have scripture embedded in our hearts, as Moses (and others) said.

At Mt. Sinai God did say these words were to be in each one's hearts, but each one was to write them there themselves by doing them, discussing them at all times. In the New/Renewed Covenant as spoken of by Jer. God says HE will write the words on each heart. Same covenant, it seems, different administration, so to speak.

 

[Avodat]

At Mt. Sinai God did say these words were to be in each one's hearts, but each one was to write them there themselves by doing them, discussing them at all times. In the New/Renewed Covenant as spoken of by Jer. God says HE will write the words on each heart. Same covenant, it seems, different administration, so to speak.

The first was G_d's desire for man, but man was stiff-necked etc etc and refused to take it to heart. By the time we get to the exile he is looking forward to a time when his people will be receptive to his law being on their hearts. The fact that they were in exile was a direct consequence of disobeying the law and trying to find ways round it. Eventually, as the parable of the vineyard shows, having sent his prophets to teach the people by their example and life style, and they beat them and killed them, he sent his only son and they, being greedy to get the whole vineyard, plotted to kill him, too, so they could run the vineyard as they saw fit. Man has still not shown any interest in taking the law to heart, in spite of Paul's exhortation to do so, and not slaivishly follow the written law with man's embellishments. Etc etc

 

[Seeking Him]

Can somone please show me what post answered my simple point? How can some people say Gentiles are not in the New Covenant, while also saying it is just for Israel and Judah, while also saying it has not yet begun, all as they quote Jeremiah 31 , "written on the hearts"..to Gentiles, the ones they say are not in that covenant, the very covenant they also say has not yet begun yet!?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Can somone please show me what post answered my simple point? How can some people say Gentiles are not in the New Covenant, while also saying it is just for Israel and Judah, while also saying it has not yet begun, all as they quote Jeremiah 31 , "written on the hearts"..to Gentiles, the ones they say are not in that covenant, the very covenant they also say has not yet begun yet!?

Good points!

 

[brinny]

i would need clarification. If by "Torah" you mean the books in the Old Testament, it most certainly is for Gentiles, or any believer in the most High God, for in that instance it would be the very same books in my KJV Bible. Yes, it's for me, a Gentile, but more aptly identified as a child, a daughter of the Most High God.