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Universe is not homogeneous as far as we know

dad

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dad

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You seem to be insisting that no one ever tries to explain it, just so you can cling to your ancient myths.
People can try, but not pretend they know when all they do is use beliefs in unknowns states and myopic modern myths.

So if we see deuterium in the ancient universe, and if deuterium was created in the ancient universe, this is somehow wrong?
If we see deuterium on say, the space station, does that mean it flew in from the 'ancient universe'? There is no such thing as the ancient universe. That is a modern myth. I see no reason NOT so see flipped hydrogen, or deuterium in the far away universe, do you? Neither do I see any way to claim that some of it being there, (we know not in what else --if there is more in that unknown space than physical 3d stuff under earth laws) had to have been due to some modern myth or fable. It really is not a difficult issue or problem. Some hydrogen and deuterium exists far away..whoopee do.

And so far, the only thing you have provided to show that a same past state position is wrong is a literal interpretation of the Bible.
NO need to provide anything to show it is wrong until we have stuff that shows it is right. We do not. Not a small speck of any stuff anywhere, anytime anyhow. Really. Literally.

And you think that the ideas of a bunch of cavemen who had very little understanding of how the world works are more authoritative than science?
Yes. I do. A caveman that God gave detailed words to far outranks an apartment cave dweller of the truth molesting modern era making stuff up. Even a pagan caveman who wrote of real long lifespans, or how he married an angel, or some spirit king outranks that vacuous rantings of modern so called science gone mad men.

Aesop's fables indicate that animals could once speak. Can animals speak now? When was the last time you saw a lion or a fox or a bear talk? So I guess this proves that the past state was one where animals could talk!
Of course animals can talk. Man just can't listen too well.

I said that it is foolish to claim that science is false when it has a great deal of supporting evidence when the source you cite is the only source to mention it.
The same state past has NO evidence. What science has aside from the tales from the kook state dream factories is not an issue!
The Bible says a particular thing, and no other source anywhere says it, and you accept it as fact.
Such as..?
Science says a particular thing, and dozens of independently conducted experiments from all over the world, using different techniques, from different scientists, at different times all say the same thing, and you dismiss it as wrong.
It is not science that says that same state decay existed and is good for real time dates. Get over it.
This is what I am saying, and yet you try to turn it into a discussion about how ancient Egyptian records show people married ghosts.
No, the Egyptian records indicate they felt that spirits were the first kings of Egypt, showing that they lived together in this world. That collaborates the bible.

You laugh at my inability to provide verifiable evidence? I'm sorry, I must have missed all the bits where I showed how radio dating techniques prove it. Last I heard, those techniques are verifiable.
Don't feel bad I think we all missed where you showed that! So, what makes them verifiable in your mind now?? Show us one concrete example.
And isn't it hypocritical that you criticise my so-called lack of evidence, when you have provided none yourself?

No. If I claim there is NO evidence from science, then if I am correct, neither of us would have it! The sort of evidence we have is outside that box.



Here's something I came across...

Pristine relics of the Big Bang spotted

Let me quote a paragraph from this...

"For the first time, astronomers have discovered two distant clouds of gas that seem to be pure relics from the Big Bang. Neither cloud contains any detectable elements forged by stars; instead, each consists only of the light elements that arose in the Big Bang some 14 billion years ago. Furthermore, the relatively high abundance of deuterium seen in one of the clouds agrees with predictions of Big Bang theory."
Glad you caught that, this is exactly why I mentioned it.
Dad, could you explain why the relatively high abundance of deuterium seen in one of the clouds agrees with predictions of Big Bang theory if the predictions of the Big Bang theory are wrong?
Already addressed that when I brought it up. The hydrogen and etc exists...so what? In no way would the only reason it could exist be some fantasy universe sailing out of a speck. We know how far the space station is. If we saw a little deuterium in or near it, we could start to have a few real clues. Distant space we know nothing about, so all distance is out the window. We also do not know the laws there, and the space time fabric etc. So what we see may only be part of the picture. We do not know how deuterium or flipped hydrogen or etc are produced in a different space and state. Man has merely assumed it must have been produced a certain way, in a certain state. Meaningless.

There are many steps to get to what we call the distant universe that science takes. Every step is an earth state and law and space and time step! I would sooner ask Buzz Lightyear about infinity and beyond, than so called science about what goes on outside it's box! Bottom line..we do not know.
 
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Tiberius

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People can try, but not pretend they know when all they do is use beliefs in unknowns states and myopic modern myths.

And what do we do when we find things that could not have happened if the past state was different?

If we see deuterium on say, the space station, does that mean it flew in from the 'ancient universe'? There is no such thing as the ancient universe. That is a modern myth. I see no reason NOT so see flipped hydrogen, or deuterium in the far away universe, do you? Neither do I see any way to claim that some of it being there, (we know not in what else --if there is more in that unknown space than physical 3d stuff under earth laws) had to have been due to some modern myth or fable. It really is not a difficult issue or problem. Some hydrogen and deuterium exists far away..whoopee do.

And what is the problem with finding deuterium nearby?

NO need to provide anything to show it is wrong until we have stuff that shows it is right. We do not. Not a small speck of any stuff anywhere, anytime anyhow. Really. Literally.

You say this, despite the fact that you have not provided anything to show that your claim is right?

Yes. I do. A caveman that God gave detailed words to far outranks an apartment cave dweller of the truth molesting modern era making stuff up. Even a pagan caveman who wrote of real long lifespans, or how he married an angel, or some spirit king outranks that vacuous rantings of modern so called science gone mad men.

So you accept the veddas as truth then?

Of course animals can talk. Man just can't listen too well.

so you really think that parseltongue is real?

The same state past has NO evidence. What science has aside from the tales from the kook state dream factories is not an issue!

It has plenty of evidence, as I have shown countless times in this thread.

Such as..?

Show me a source outside the Bible that talks about Noah's ark.

It is not science that says that same state decay existed and is good for real time dates. Get over it.

Yes it is.

No, the Egyptian records indicate they felt that spirits were the first kings of Egypt, showing that they lived together in this world. That collaborates the bible.

Show me the specific records from ancient Egypt that say these things, then provide the passages from the Bible that agree with them.

Don't feel bad I think we all missed where you showed that! So, what makes them verifiable in your mind now?? Show us one concrete example.

So you are ignoring all the times where I told you that if the past state was different, different radio dating techniques would give different ages for the same sample?

No. If I claim there is NO evidence from science, then if I am correct, neither of us would have it! The sort of evidence we have is outside that box.

You have provided no evidence at all for your position, that is what I am saying.

It is hypocritical for you to claim that I have provided no evidence for my position when you have provided no evidence for your position.

Glad you caught that, this is exactly why I mentioned it.

So, what's your answer?

If the past state was different, why do we see something that a same-state past would have?

And your answer is...

Already addressed that when I brought it up. The hydrogen and etc exists...so what? In no way would the only reason it could exist be some fantasy universe sailing out of a speck. We know how far the space station is. If we saw a little deuterium in or near it, we could start to have a few real clues. Distant space we know nothing about, so all distance is out the window. We also do not know the laws there, and the space time fabric etc. So what we see may only be part of the picture. We do not know how deuterium or flipped hydrogen or etc are produced in a different space and state. Man has merely assumed it must have been produced a certain way, in a certain state. Meaningless.

In other words, you are saying, "Despite the fact that it matches exactly with what a same-state past suggests, it probably came about some other way."

You really think that a different past state that somehow produces the EXACT thing that a same state past would produce is the most likely explanation?

There are many steps to get to what we call the distant universe that science takes. Every step is an earth state and law and space and time step! I would sooner ask Buzz Lightyear about infinity and beyond, than so called science about what goes on outside it's box! Bottom line..we do not know.

Buzz Lightyear knows more about science than you do, and he's just a piece of plastic.
 
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dad

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And what do we do when we find things that could not have happened if the past state was different?
No idea, never found anything yet remotely similar to that particular fantasy.
And what is the problem with finding deuterium nearby?
No more than finding it far away! That was the point.

You say this, despite the fact that you have not provided anything to show that your claim is right?
My claim is that there is nothing to show your claimed state of the past ever really existed. Science doesn't know. Those that claim it does are the only ones needing proof.


So you accept the veddas as truth then?



so you really think that parseltongue is real?
Spirits have been on earth for a long time. Bad and good. I have no need to wave away spiritual based stories from the past! We can simply realize that only the bible has been well preserved and proven and fulfilled and verified as from God.
Show me a source outside the Bible that talks about Noah's ark.
Show me a source that talks of a same state far universe!?

Yes it is.
Then the present laws and forces required for atomic decay must be shown to have existed as is!

Show me the specific records from ancient Egypt that say these things, then provide the passages from the Bible that agree with them.
The king list names the earliest kings as spirit gods.


So you are ignoring all the times where I told you that if the past state was different, different radio dating techniques would give different ages for the same sample?
Makes no sense! How? Can't articulate?

You have provided no evidence at all for your position, that is what I am saying.
My position is that your so called science same state past has no evidence. That is evidenced by the lack of evidence!

It is hypocritical for you to claim that I have provided no evidence for my position when you have provided no evidence for your position.
Your position cannot be evidenced. Mine need not be by science.

So, what's your answer?

If the past state was different, why do we see something that a same-state past would have?

And your answer is...
Like what? I can't read minds...(that well)


In other words, you are saying, "Despite the fact that it matches exactly with what a same-state past suggests, it probably came about some other way."
Circular reasoning. The reason you got a match was because you started off assuming the same state, and also used it as a conclusion.

You really think that a different past state that somehow produces the EXACT thing that a same state past would produce is the most likely explanation?
Of course. Creation produced the universe, not any state of the past! I simply point out that the efforts to godlessly explain all things we see here with earth's present rules is...well, just that.

Buzz Lightyear knows more about science than you do, and he's just a piece of plastic.

So this is the model you hold up for knowledge? I rest my case.
 
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Tiberius

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I better change my so called science scientist avatar! Maybe put a red cross in the "C" or a C+ or something! They repeated the experiments that busted the E=MC2 myth!

Citation needed.

In other words, you have to provide something more than your say-so, because opinion is about as accurate as a storm trooper aiming at Luke Skywalker.
 
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dad

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Citation needed.

In other words, you have to provide something more than your say-so, because opinion is about as accurate as a storm trooper aiming at Luke Skywalker.
"The OPERA neutrino anomaly is the detection of apparently faster-than-light neutrinos by the OPERA experiment in September 2011. The detection is anomalous because speeds exceeding light violate special relativity,[1] a prevailing theory of physics."

OPERA neutrino anomaly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is news? Well, I guess it still is....
 
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Tiberius

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You didn't read it much, did you?

Dario Autiero, who leads the OPERA team's analysis of the superluminal result, has stated that further scrutiny and independent tests are necessary to definitely confirm or refute the results.[4] Independent tests by other collaborations are under way.

Hasn't been confirmed yet.

Indeed, this seems to indicate that there is an explanation for it.

Got anything better, or is it just stuff that hasn't been verified yet?
 
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dad

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You didn't read it much, did you?



Hasn't been confirmed yet.

Indeed, this seems to indicate that there is an explanation for it.

Got anything better, or is it just stuff that hasn't been verified yet?
It was repeated, same result. That seems to call into question any firm belief in the standard model. You see your standard godless belief system has not and never will be verified. That is what is going on here. By the way, did I notice your link was dated before the repeat verification? Focus. Your link date....10/14/2011

the repeat test....some days ago! Ho hum. Come on over to the winnin side! Water's fine.
 
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dad

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And can you show that they eliminated that possibility?
They have repeated tests that show that light is not the speed limit. In other words they do not really know. Could there be some shaft to the bottomless pit in the area that affects the results? Who knows? Are the results right? Who knows. Not you. Not science. Can the standard model be held up as knowledge and fact across time and all space? No. Which is the point.


If the bible accounts of the past are right, face it, there had to be a different nature and forces in place. I don't see anyone disagreeing here do you? Why is that? Because I am correct.

As for science, then, since it does not know, who cares what it might blather about on the issue? Either you know, or not. By science you sure don't.

Therefore, in lieu of proof that the universe is the same to it's edges, and in lieu of proof that the laws of the present on and near earth were the same in the early history of man on earth....the jury is out pal. Dismissed. The case is closed. Don't blame me.
 
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Tiberius

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They have repeated tests that show that light is not the speed limit.

As Chalnoth asked, which tests?

In other words they do not really know.

Doesn't seem to stop you from acting like you know.

Could there be some shaft to the bottomless pit in the area that affects the results? Who knows?

How would a bottomless pit cause the effect we see?

Are the results right? Who knows. Not you. Not science.

And not you. And my money is that it is science that will provide us with the answer, and it will match up to the standard model.

Can the standard model be held up as knowledge and fact across time and all space? No. Which is the point.

What's this? You speak as if it has been invalidated. it has not, not until they can prove that these particles are travelling faster than light. Many scientists still reject claims that the speed of light has been broken. They think it is far more likely that there is some error that is causing these results.

If the bible accounts of the past are right, face it, there had to be a different nature and forces in place. I don't see anyone disagreeing here do you? Why is that? Because I am correct.

Yeah, IF.

You are yet to prove that the Bible accounts are correct. I;ve asked you to provide evidence of this, but you have not.

As for science, then, since it does not know, who cares what it might blather about on the issue? Either you know, or not. By science you sure don't.

orly? For every development made by religion, I will name a hundred made by science.

Because science provides answers that we can use.

Therefore, in lieu of proof that the universe is the same to it's edges, and in lieu of proof that the laws of the present on and near earth were the same in the early history of man on earth....the jury is out pal. Dismissed. The case is closed. Don't blame me.

lol, you claim that the jury is out, and yet all you've been able to say is a bunch of "we don't know"s and "if"s.

I sure hope you aren't a lawyer, Dad...
 
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dad

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How would a bottomless pit cause the effect we see?
If any shaft to the pit existed one would suspect that it would involve the spiritual. If that were the case, then we would need to look at more than normal present state laws. But I am not saying that is the case of course. Who knows? Certainly not science...that is what I am saying.


And not you. And my money is that it is science that will provide us with the answer, and it will match up to the standard model.
Yoiu know, I bet they will scurry desperately to find any pathetic what if scenario based on a physical only present state as well. We are close on this one.


What's this? You speak as if it has been invalidated. it has not, not until they can prove that these particles are travelling faster than light. Many scientists still reject claims that the speed of light has been broken. They think it is far more likely that there is some error that is causing these results.
Face it, they do not know. Until they do, who cares what dreams they espouse?

Yeah, IF.

You are yet to prove that the Bible accounts are correct. I;ve asked you to provide evidence of this, but you have not.
The proofs God gave men are outside the box of modern present state science. But, hey, what isn't!!?

orly? For every development made by religion, I will name a hundred made by science.
All bow.
Because science provides answers that we can use.
Like nukes. No thanks. We can also utterly reject all we chose. Funny that.

lol, you claim that the jury is out, and yet all you've been able to say is a bunch of "we don't know"s and "if"s.
So until you can show knowledge then, the jury is out. As I said.
I sure hope you aren't a lawyer, Dad...
Why?? Afraid of a suit?
 
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Tiberius

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If any shaft to the pit existed one would suspect that it would involve the spiritual. If that were the case, then we would need to look at more than normal present state laws. But I am not saying that is the case of course. Who knows? Certainly not science...that is what I am saying.

So you are now inventing things that don't exist (bottomless spiritual pits) to prove your point.

Yeah, good luck with that.

Yoiu know, I bet they will scurry desperately to find any pathetic what if scenario based on a physical only present state as well. We are close on this one.

Funny, that's how I described your arguments in this thread!

Face it, they do not know. Until they do, who cares what dreams they espouse?

lol, is this the best you can do? Repeating your claims that they don't know?

The proofs God gave men are outside the box of modern present state science. But, hey, what isn't!!?

Everything testable, verifiable and conformable.


?

Like nukes. No thanks. We can also utterly reject all we chose. Funny that.

That's the most ridiculous argument I have ever seen. Science does a few things that you don't like, and thus ALL of science is bad? You just ignore all the good that science has done.

And yet, I bet you have no problem using that computer you are on right now, or watching TV, or medicine, or any number of other things you use every day that science has provided for you.

There's a word for that. Hypocrisy.

So until you can show knowledge then, the jury is out. As I said.

Is there an even prime number greater than two? Every mathematician in the world says no. But I say that unless they have counted EVERY number, they can't know! Therefore there IS an even prime greater than two! That proves it!

Why?? Afraid of a suit?

No, I'm afraid of you defending me one day. With your debate and logic skills I wouldn't stand a chance.
 
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