What came first, Monotheism, or, Polytheism?

[Greg1234]

Psalms 82:

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’

Elohim standeth in the congregation of El, he judgeth among Elohim.

 

[GuardianShua]

Evidence please?.None of the Jewish sites support your argument.

The following Jewish sites refute your argument.

Genesis 1 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Jewish Bible (JPS 1917) - Bereshit Chapter 1


The second site supports the translation of First jewish site which i already gave.
[SIZE=+1]Genesis1:26 And G-d said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' The Elohim is clearly talking to others before the creation.

[/SIZE]


The hebrew breakdown for Genesis 1:26


[FONT=&quot]צַלְמֵנ[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]ְ[/FONT]
b·tzlm·nu
in·image-of·us
[FONT=&quot]תֵנ[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]דְמ[/FONT] $[FONT=&quot]ִ[/FONT]
k·dmuth·nu
as·likeness-of·us

Messianic's are mostly Trinitarian's because they mostly come from mainstream Christianity. Run those Hebrew words through an online translator. Or, check the NIV Exhaustive Concordance.

 

[razeontherock]

Again, you're looking at a difference in Jewish thought, between say 3 BC and 130 AD. Which difference solely came about, to distance the Christian sect from the rest of Judaism.

 

[GrayAngel]

Has anybody ever wondered why this so-called polytheistic God of the OT always operated as one unit. If the God was originally believed to be multiple gods, then why don't they have conversations back and forth? How come they never disagree? We see no interaction between these supposedly polytheistic Hebrew gods.

Psalms 82:

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’

Psalm 82 in full:

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

It's clear from this Psalm that the "gods" are not real gods in the sense that Yahweh is God. In the first verse, it says that the God judges.

In verse 5, the statement is made that the "gods" know nothing. How can a god know nothing?

Verse 7 says that the gods will die like mere mortals; "like every other ruler." Gods cannot die.

Then the final verse circles back to the idea of the first, with God judging the nations.

From this, I gather that these "gods" are most likely the rulers of the nations. God is the judge of all nations, and He is above every king. Kings will die, but God never will.

It's also possible that the verses are speaking of false gods, who will "die" when they're forgotten. Either way, these "gods" are clearly not equal to Yahweh.

 

[GuardianShua]

Has anybody ever wondered why this so-called polytheistic God of the OT always operated as one unit. If the God was originally believed to be multiple gods, then why don't they have conversations back and forth? How come they never disagree? We see no interaction between these supposedly polytheistic Hebrew gods.



Psalm 82 in full:

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

It's clear from this Psalm that the "gods" are not real gods in the sense that Yahweh is God. In the first verse, it says that the God judges.

In verse 5, the statement is made that the "gods" know nothing. How can a god know nothing?

Verse 7 says that the gods will die like mere mortals; "like every other ruler." Gods cannot die.

Then the final verse circles back to the idea of the first, with God judging the nations.

From this, I gather that these "gods" are most likely the rulers of the nations. God is the judge of all nations, and He is above every king. Kings will die, but God never will.

It's also possible that the verses are speaking of false gods, who will "die" when they're forgotten. Either way, these "gods" are clearly not equal to Yahweh.

We who will recieve life immortal are called gods, along with those who are already gods in the kingdom of heaven. There is only one who came into being and created all things. His name is Yahwah, "Life Began." This is what Yahshua said about himself:
John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

John 13:16
Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
Yahshua came to serve.
John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

 

[GuardianShua]

, נַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ; : We make man in our own image;

For the English language it should read. "I made man in our image." Look up the words "Royal We" for the Aramaic and Hebrew.

 

[GuardianShua]

, נַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ; : We make man in our own image;

For the English language it should read. "I made man in our image." Look up the words "Royal We" or "Majestic We" for the Aramaic and Hebrew language.
But yet the "Let us" in Genesis1:26, can be easily explained by the following example:

I see a group of children sitting and I tell them, "Let us play soccer!"

It is I who did the talking to an audience.

And Genesis 1:27 clarifies immediately by saying, "And God created man in His image"

Thus, it is still Yahwah alone who is Elohiym, who created man.

 

[Rationalt]

Messianic's are mostly Trinitarian's because they mostly come from mainstream Christianity. Run those Hebrew words through an online translator. Or, check the NIV Exhaustive Concordance.

Messianics?.Did i quote the messianics ?.

 

[Rationalt]

Has anybody ever wondered why this so-called polytheistic God of the OT always operated as one unit. If the God was originally believed to be multiple gods, then why don't they have conversations back and forth? How come they never disagree? We see no interaction between these supposedly polytheistic Hebrew gods.

As per the Pslams verses you posted below EL,(The Most High of the congregation) commands Smaller gods to fulfill his commands.

Psalm 82 in full:

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

It's clear from this Psalm that the "gods" are not real gods in the sense that Yahweh is God. In the first verse, it says that the God judges.

The word used is אֱלֹהִים (alhim) the same one used for EL.

As for these gods(The small g ) not knowing much, it can be argued some of those characteristics apply to Yahweh.

For example Yahweh promises that The descendents of Abraham will inherit all the cities

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

This Never happened.Despite Descriptions of Moses startling the egyptians with his Powers they(The egyptians) were living under Rule of Pharaohs.

The Jews of Israel came under the authority of PAGAN roman king.

Yahweh could not defeat the valley people because they had IRON chariots.

judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron )...

The story of being unable to drive out well equipped Canaanites continue in judges 1:27 -35.

In verse 5, the statement is made that the "gods" know nothing. How can a god know nothing?

Verse 7 says that the gods will die like mere mortals; "like every other ruler." Gods cannot die.

Then the final verse circles back to the idea of the first, with God judging the nations.

From this, I gather that these "gods" are most likely the rulers of the nations. God is the judge of all nations, and He is above every king. Kings will die, but God never will.

It's also possible that the verses are speaking of false gods, who will "die" when they're forgotten. Either way, these "gods" are clearly not equal to Yahweh.

Apparently Yahweh could not Judge the nations of Egypt and Italy-rome.I am talking only about the nearby nations.

Moses could not rule the Egyptians(As promised by Yahweh) .Egyptians under Pagan Pharaoh didn't even bother about Moses.The Jews finally came under PAGAN rulers of Rome and had to fear them.

Yahweh's desire to partake the sacrifices (Moving from tent to tent) doesn't appear to reflect the characteristics of the Most High God EL.

 

[GrayAngel]

As per the Pslams verses you posted below EL,(The Most High of the congregation) commands Smaller gods to fulfill his commands.

You're reading what you want to into scripture, otherwise it would be obvious that this is not the case. Read myths about Greek gods, and there's no doubt that their gods are many. But when you read the Old Testament, there's no indication that these "lesser gods" are real gods at all.

It's more likely that these "gods" were kings. Kings were sometimes referred to as gods, as were some of Yahweh's own representatives (because they acted on God's behalf). And as I mentioned, and you haven't addressed this yet, these "gods" were mortal.

The word used is אֱלֹהִים (alhim) the same one used for EL.

As for these gods(The small g ) not knowing much, it can be argued some of those characteristics apply to Yahweh.

For example Yahweh promises that The descendents of Abraham will inherit all the cities

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

This Never happened.Despite Descriptions of Moses startling the egyptians with his Powers they(The egyptians) were living under Rule of Pharaohs.

First off, God knows the future, and His predictions have always come true. You can't make prophecies if you don't know anything. The verses concerning the "lesser gods" were emphasizing the weaknesses of those "gods," showing them to be nothing compared to the everlasting strength of Yahweh.

Second, what was described here was the Promised Land. Israel would be given their own country. And this did come true. Even after the Egyptian empire ceased to exist, and the Roman empire after that met a similar fate, Israel still stands. Their land is still their land.

The Jews of Israel came under the authority of PAGAN roman king.

Yahweh could not defeat the valley people because they had IRON chariots.

judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron )...

The story of being unable to drive out well equipped Canaanites continue in judges 1:27 -35.

I don't know what version you're reading, but this is what mine says:

Judges 1:19 - The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron.

The inept ability to defeat the iron chariots was the weakness of Judah, not God. God was the one who shook the whole mountain of Sinai, for crying out loud. I think he could handle a few men with iron.

Apparently Yahweh could not Judge the nations of Egypt and Italy-rome.I am talking only about the nearby nations.

Moses could not rule the Egyptians(As promised by Yahweh) .Egyptians under Pagan Pharaoh didn't even bother about Moses.The Jews finally came under PAGAN rulers of Rome and had to fear them.

Yahweh's desire to partake the sacrifices (Moving from tent to tent) doesn't appear to reflect the characteristics of the Most High God EL.

The Bible never says that the Jews would rule over Egypt. What the Bible does say is that God is in charge. All government comes from Him, including that of the Romans. And as I said before, Israel is still standing. What happened to Egypt?

God is the judge of all nations. Every leader is under His authority, and He will end their rule, or even cause a whole nation to crumble, whenever He decides their time is up.

I'm not sure what your point is about the tents, but if you're trying to say that God is limited in where He can be, try reading the verse in context.

I Chronicles 17:4-5 - “Go and tell my servant David, ‘This is what the LORD says: You are not the one to build me a house to dwell in. I have not dwelt in a house from the day I brought Israel up out of Egypt to this day. I have moved from one tent site to another, from one dwelling place to another."

The verse is saying just the opposite, that we should minimize God into something we can fit into one house. God is everywhere.

 

[awitch]

What the Bible does say is that God is in charge. All government comes from Him, including that of the Romans...

God is the judge of all nations. Every leader is under His authority, and He will end their rule, or even cause a whole nation to crumble, whenever He decides their time is up.

So elections are just for show? If the Republicans didn't campaign at all some of them should still win if god already chose them, right? Almost all of the Republican incumbents said god wanted them to run so are they just wasting their time and money?

 

[razeontherock]

Almost all of the Republican incumbents said god wanted them to run so are they just wasting their time and money?

Apparently that's Palin's strategy?

 

[GrayAngel]

So elections are just for show? If the Republicans didn't campaign at all some of them should still win if god already chose them, right? Almost all of the Republican incumbents said god wanted them to run so are they just wasting their time and money?

According to the Bible, the government is under God's authority. But we at least have the illusion of control. In America, we elect leaders into office by vote, but God ordains who will be elected.

I'm not sure why you're talking about Republicans only, but the success of any party is entirely up to God. As for whether or not the losers are wasting their money, they don't know the future. None of us do. They run to give themselves a chance of winning, because no one will be elected by just sitting at home.

Of course, they're all going to say that God wanted them to run. They're playing the part to try to win our support. But even if they were honestly running because God told them to, a loss does not necessarily equal a waste of time.

 

[awitch]

According to the Bible, the government is under God's authority. But we at least have the illusion of control.

Why would god want to fool people like that?

 

[GrayAngel]

Why would god want to fool people like that?

How is God fooling us? We're the one's fooling ourselves. God's Word removes illusion.

 

[awitch]

How is God fooling us? We're the one's fooling ourselves. God's Word removes illusion.

I'm trying to figure this out. We fool ourselves into thinking we have control by having elections but god is the one who really picks the winner in advance?

 

[razeontherock]

I'm trying to figure this out. We fool ourselves into thinking we have control by having elections but god is the one who really picks the winner in advance?

Hey, there are votes, and there are votes. Have you met Vinny?

No seriously, G-d's worst Judgment is to leave a Nation to it's own devices and/or appoint corrupt leaders. It appears that is the boat we are in

 

[awitch]

No seriously, G-d's worst Judgment is to leave a Nation to it's own devices and/or appoint corrupt leaders. It appears that is the boat we are in

Doesn't god know we have separation of church and state?

And how come conservative Christian Republicans can't go 20 minutes without whining about how evil President Obama is if god ordained him? Shouldn't that be, like, blasphemy or something?

(Vinny? Is that your cousin?)

 

[razeontherock]

Doesn't god know we have separation of church and state?

I see no conflict there

And how come conservative Christian Republicans can't go 20 minutes without whining about how evil President Obama is if god ordained him? Shouldn't that be, like, blasphemy or something?

Oh wow, you really went there?!? Ok. In that case that would mean that Obama speaks great things about himself where he should not, declaring that he himself is god. You know, making him the antichrist and all. I don't think we're *that far* into it, yet

 

[Rationalt]

You're reading what you want to into scripture, otherwise it would be obvious that this is not the case. Read myths about Greek gods, and there's no doubt that their gods are many. But when you read the Old Testament, there's no indication that these "lesser gods" are real gods at all.

Seems the Psalms doesn't make any distinction between real and unreal gods.The word in hebrew is the same.

It's more likely that these "gods" were kings. Kings were sometimes referred to as gods, as were some of Yahweh's own representatives (because they acted on God's behalf). And as I mentioned, and you haven't addressed this yet, these "gods" were mortal.

Understand that alhim the hebrew word never means King or Kings.

Sure, these gods were mortal.They need to perform or perish.They are NOT secure.All the more Reason to suspect yahweh could be one of those smaller gods since jealousy comes out of insecurity.

First off, God knows the future, and His predictions have always come true. You can't make prophecies if you don't know anything. The verses concerning the "lesser gods" were emphasizing the weaknesses of those "gods," showing them to be nothing compared to the everlasting strength of Yahweh.

Hmmm, let us see.

Second, what was described here was the Promised Land. Israel would be given their own country. And this did come true. Even after the Egyptian empire ceased to exist, and the Roman empire after that met a similar fate, Israel still stands. Their land is still their land.

Lol.Yahweh had no role to play it seems.Jews were driven out of Israel by various people contrary to Yahweh's promise that the Land is Theirs forever. The Jews had to Buy the Land and declare it as a nation and had to Live under constant threat of suicide Bombers.

I don't know what version you're reading, but this is what mine says:

No difference in what i quoted and what you brought here.

Judges 1:19

- The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron.

The inept ability to defeat the iron chariots was the weakness of Judah, not God. God was the one who shook the whole mountain of Sinai, for crying out loud. I think he could handle a few men with iron.

Why do you think the ineptness was NOT shared By Yahweh?, especially since he promises them the land.

Judges 1:1-2

1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, “Who of us is to go up first to fight against the Canaanites?” 2 The LORD answered, “Judah shall go up; I have given the land into their hands.

The Bible never says that the Jews would rule over Egypt. What the Bible does say is that God is in charge. All government comes from Him, including that of the Romans. And as I said before, Israel is still standing. What happened to Egypt?

i see that you have removed the genesis verse i quoted.Perhaps i was incorrect in assuming that Jews were given promise to rule Egypt.

Let us see the verse again.

genesis/15-18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto your descendants have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

So, where is this Land?.