What do you believe in?

[cubinity]

God is good, and He cannot mix Himself with evil. Evil people are used by God in His plan, but He discards them when He's finished with them. The unsaved are like plastic silverware, which is used, then thrown in the trash. But the saved are like fine china, which is kept displayed proudly.

It doesn't matter how evil became evil. Evil is evil, regardless of its origin. You wouldn't say that a black car is any less black because somebody painted it that way.

No I wouldn't.
But, I also wouldn't argue that the car maker painted the car black, and then insist that it was not the car maker's fault, but actually the car's fault, that it was black.
Which is exactly what you are doing here.

Either a person is evil because they choose to be, or they are evil because they are made to be.
If by choice, then they are responsible.

If by design, then why does the designer hold the product responsible, and not hold himself responsible?
That would be like you dropping your fine china and breaking it, and then blaming the china for being broken, as if it was the china's fault.

 

[GrayAngel]

No I wouldn't.
But, I also wouldn't argue that the car maker painted the car black, and then insist that it was not the car maker's fault, but actually the car's fault, that it was black.
Which is exactly what you are doing here.

Either a person is evil because they choose to be, or they are evil because they are made to be.
If by choice, then they are responsible.

If by design, then why does the designer hold the product responsible, and not hold himself responsible?
That would be like you dropping your fine china and breaking it, and then blaming the china for being broken, as if it was the china's fault.

Romans 9:19-21 - One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Do you believe in what the Bible says?

 

[RobertZ]

Yeah.
My bad.
Apologies.

Mind explaining why when I perceive myself as being born again was important?
I am interested to know what made that an important enough part of the process for you that you would zero in on it in getting to know my testimony.

Because you stated that you became a Christian at the age of 9 so I was asking you if that was when you would say that you were born again? No hidden agenda, or evil intentions. Just an honest question from someone struggling with doubts concerning his own salvation.

I have known people in my life who said that they became a Christian at such and such an age and then later in life claimed to be born again for the first time ever, im wondering if thats the case with yourself or if you identify your born again experience at the age of 9 when you stated you became a Christian.

 

[RobertZ]

If by design, then why does the designer hold the product responsible, and not hold himself responsible?
That would be like you dropping your fine china and breaking it, and then blaming the china for being broken, as if it was the china's fault.

(Rom 9:19-21) One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

[cubinity]

Romans 9:19-21 - One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Do you believe in what the Bible says?

Yes, I believe what the Bible says.

Have you read the context of your soundbite?

Romans 9:30-32 closes up the point of the comments made above, by saying, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone...”

It is clear from the context of the passage that Paul did not mean this to say that God dictates every thought and decision of man to the point that their choices are irrelevant. This closing statement clarifies that the contrast he is actually making is that the Israelites are not accredited any more righteousness over the Gentiles because of their history of trying, but that God, in His sovereignty, can incorporate the Gentiles into His promises, and it isn't the place of the Israelites to challenge that decision.

The definitive statement here is that faith, not works, matter. The fundamental issue making the statement necessary is that faith is a choice, not forcefully designed into us, as you argue.

 

[RobertZ]

Romans 9:19-21 - One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Do you believe in what the Bible says?

Sorry, I didnt see that you already posted that.

 

[cubinity]

Because you stated that you became a Christian at the age of 9 so I was asking you if that was when you would say that you were born again?

I have known people in my life who said that they became a Christian at such and such an age and then later in life claimed to be born again for the first time ever, im wondering if thats the case with yourself or if you identify your born again experience at the age of 9 when you stated you became a Christian.

I believe I'm being born again.
It is a process, and one I hope to complete one day.

 

[RobertZ]

I believe I'm being born again.
It is a process, and one I hope to complete one day.

Well, maybe we differ on this subject but you are born again spiritually the moment that the Holy Spirit indwells you. The intial moment of being spiritually born again does happen in an instant and after that the process of sanctification begins where he works in you to make you more and more like Jesus until finally we are glorified when we see Christ.

Also why do you say that you hope to complete it one day? If your saved then you dont need to hope because its not up to you in the first place, its God who promises to complete the work that he himself started in you.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

[cubinity]

Well, maybe we differ on this subject but you are born again spiritually the moment that the Holy Spirit indwells you. The intial moment of being spiritually born again does happen in an instant and after that the process of sanctification begins where he works in you to make you more and more like Jesus until finally we are glorified when we see Christ.

Also why do you say that you hope to complete it one day? If your saved then you dont need to hope because its not up to you in the first place, its God who promises to complete the work that he himself started in you.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,

Hebrews 10:23
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

1 Peter 3:15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

1 John 3:3
And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

I hope because I believe what the Bible says...

 

[RobertZ]

I hope because I believe what the Bible says...

Well thats great then you need not worry about God not finishing that which he started. The passages you posted are more than a hope as if "im not sure but maybe" which it seems you are suggesting. Its a definite promise and a guarentee for the Believer.

See again Philippians 1:6, God doesnt start a work in you and then later on fail to complete it.

Also Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit. Who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.


So its not just a "I hope sort of thing", its a guarantee!

 

[cubinity]

Well thats great then you need not worry about God not finishing that which he started. The passages you posted are more than a hope as if "im not sure but maybe" which it seems you are suggesting. Its a definite promise and a guarentee for the Believer.

See again Philippians 1:6, God doesnt start a work in you and then later on fail to complete it.

Also Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit. Who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.


So its not just a "I hope sort of thing", its a guarantee!

I think you have a weaker implication for the word, "hope," than I do.
There is no doubt in my hope. There is no lack of certainty.

 

[RobertZ]

I think you have a weaker implication for the word, "hope," than I do.
There is no doubt in my hope. There is no lack of certainty.

No, quite the opposite is true as I went into detail that its a hope which is certain to be completed.

Apparently I just misunderstood your definition of hope so my apologies.

 

[cubinity]

No, quite the opposite is true as I went into detail that its a hope which is certain to be completed.

Apparently I just misunderstood your definition of hope so my apologies.

No prob.

 

[DeaconDean]

I believe I'm being born again.
It is a process, and one I hope to complete one day.

I'm sorry, but seeing this, I have to post.

Being "born-again" is not a process. It is not something to which it is started one day and finished sometime in the future.

Look up the Greek word for regeneration.

You really need to read this: Founders Ministries | ch32

It is synomous with "born-again".

It is not a process.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[cubinity]

I'm sorry, but seeing this, I have to post.

Being "born-again" is not a process. It is not something to which it is started one day and finished sometime in the future.

Look up the Greek word for regeneration.

You really need to read this: Founders Ministries | ch32

It is synomous with "born-again".

It is not a process.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Cool. Thanks for the info. I really don't think it's that important either way, but it's neat that you do. God bless.

 

[Skala]

well, if the Bible doesn't view it as a process, I'd say it's pretty important to view it as the Bible does.

 

[cubinity]

well, if the Bible doesn't view it as a process, I'd say it's pretty important to view it as the Bible does.

Great.
Tell me, how does the Bible view it?
I wasn't aware the thing was so specific on the matter.

 

[Skala]

Don't get me wrong, the Christian life is a process, but technically, theologians would call that "sanctification", (growing in holiness to be more like Christ) not "being born again".

Being born again is a one-time event that happens, and then it's done. It isn't a long, drawn out process, the way sanctification is. Here are some passages that speak of the new birth:

Joh 3:3-8
(3) Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
(4) Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
(5) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(7) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
(8) The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."


Eph 2:1-5
(1) And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
(2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
(3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
(4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
(5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

In none of these passages could a read conclude that the new birth is a process that you experience, but rather, it happens to you, and then it's done. Take the Eph 2 passage for example, Paul tells us that we were dead, then God made us alive. You wouldn't conclude that God is "slowly making us alive, over time, via a process". No, resurrection simply happens at an instant, and it's done with. You are now alive.

Anyways, I'm not sure what benefit there is from understanding the new birth as a process. But it seems that there is great benefit in understanding something the way the Bible understands it!

 

[cubinity]

Don't get me wrong, the Christian life is a process, but technically, theologians would call that "sanctification", (growing in holiness to be more like Christ) not "being born again".

Being born again is a one-time event that happens, and then it's done. It isn't a long, drawn out process, the way sanctification is. Here are some passages that speak of the new birth:

Joh 3:3-8
(3) Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
(4) Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
(5) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(7) Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
(8) The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."


Eph 2:1-5
(1) And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
(2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
(3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
(4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
(5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

In none of these passages could a read conclude that the new birth is a process that you experience, but rather, it happens to you, and then it's done. Take the Eph 2 passage for example, Paul tells us that we were dead, then God made us alive. You wouldn't conclude that God is "slowly making us alive, over time, via a process". No, resurrection simply happens at an instant, and it's done with. You are now alive.

Anyways, I'm not sure what benefit there is from understanding the new birth as a process. But it seems that there is great benefit in understanding something the way the Bible understands it!

Hey, thanks for this info and the opinion that accompanied it. I totally see what the Bible is saying, and am thankful for the reminder. Forgive me that I just happened to disagree with the "in a moment, and then it's done." conclusion. I guess I can see why you conclude that, and I can definitely appreciate if holding that opinion brings value to your faith. I, on the other hand, don't make the same conclusion, but still derive value from the conclusion I have made. Again, thanks and God bless!

 

[Skala]

Hey no problem.

I guess my question to you is: what makes you conclude the thing you conclude? What Bible passage?