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What do you believe in?

Do you believe in free will or predestination? (Baptists only)

  • Free will

  • Predestination

  • Neither

  • Undecided


Results are only viewable after voting.

GrayAngel

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Free-will.

I know my icon isn't Baptist, but I run in Baptist circles and I go to a Baptist church, so I hope you'll take my vote...

If you regularly attend or are a member of a Baptist church, then you qualify.

Some of you who've seen my posts in the past know my own position. I'm for predestination.
 
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miamited

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I believe in free will of the individual and predestination of the saints.

To explain, I believe everyone has a free will choice as to whether they will believe the truth of God. However, God has predestined since before the foundations of the world were established that all those who would make that free will choice to believe His truth were predestined to spend eternity with Him. So God did not predestine the individual, but rather the 'church'.

I couldn't answer your poll because that option isn't available.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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D

dies-l

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I believe in free will of the individual and predestination of the saints.

To explain, I believe everyone has a free will choice as to whether they will believe the truth of God. However, God has predestined since before the foundations of the world were established that all those who would make that free will choice to believe His truth were predestined to spend eternity with Him. So God did not predestine the individual, but rather the 'church'.

I couldn't answer your poll because that option isn't available.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

^^This^^
 
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MrJim

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I believe in free will of the individual and predestination of the saints.

To explain, I believe everyone has a free will choice as to whether they will believe the truth of God. However, God has predestined since before the foundations of the world were established that all those who would make that free will choice to believe His truth were predestined to spend eternity with Him. So God did not predestine the individual, but rather the 'church'.

I couldn't answer your poll because that option isn't available.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

...I think I can live with this~starts to sound like one of the "Space/Time Continuum" episodes on Star Trek where something has already happened and has yet to happen at the same time:cool:
 
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GrayAngel

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I believe in free will of the individual and predestination of the saints.

To explain, I believe everyone has a free will choice as to whether they will believe the truth of God. However, God has predestined since before the foundations of the world were established that all those who would make that free will choice to believe His truth were predestined to spend eternity with Him. So God did not predestine the individual, but rather the 'church'.

I couldn't answer your poll because that option isn't available.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

The option is "Neither." Yours is an alternative view.
 
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D

dies-l

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The option is "Neither." Yours is an alternative view.

Actually, it is "both", which is not provided as an option. "Neither" would come into play if a person did not believe that individuals had free will AND that God does not predestine the elect. It is not a satisfactory answer for those of us who accept both realities.
 
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miamited

Ted
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Hi Robert,

You wrote: Predestination...it's directly supported and proven by Scripture.

That's absolutely true! It's what I believe! However, where you and I may differ is what the subject of 'predestination' is. The saints are predestined to conform to Christ and to recieve all the wonderful promises of their God. However, the question is not whether or not the predestination of the saints has or hasn't been determined, but rather who will be the saints.

Jim says that it sounds like some space time continuum. No, it is not nearly as difficult a concept to understand.

God predestined in eternity past that the saints would be with Him. Before He ever set the first foundation of the earth in the heavens He knew what He was about. He knew that He would create a creature with free will to choose whether or not they were willing to submit to His authority as Creator. He knew that in the end, He would close the book on this realm of creation and gather to Him all those who made that choice as we live our lives that He has graciously given us. He knew before the foundations of the world that the end of this story would be all about His glory. He knew all of this and He set in place a plan of salvation which began with the writing of His holy word and culminated in the sacrifice of His one and only Son.

The word, the sacrifice of the Son and the eternal home of the saints has all been predestined. Now, what is left is to find out who the saints are. Who will believe Him? Who will be faithful to Him? Who will see and understand and hear and apply the testimony of His word and His Son as the cornerstone of their life? He predestined from eternity past that the 'church', the very building that Jesus is gathering in right now, as you and I sit and type these words and live our lives. He predestined in eternity past that all those who would believe in His one and only Son would be saved.

Those people are the people that Jesus referred to as the 'ekklesia', Paul refers to as the saints and John refers to as the children of God. The 'church' has always been predestined for God's eternal glory. What we are working out today is the building of that 'church'. Just like the Son told you. On this rock I shall build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. That is the assurance that every born again believer rests in.

That once we are born again, we then become a part of Jesus' church. He writes our name in his Book of Life and in the end that 'church' of saints, that has been predestined since before the foundations of the earth were set in place will be saved! Praise God. Give Him glory for we all, though our sins are as scarlet, shall be washed as white as snow by the blood of the one who died for us. We then become a part of the 'church' which Jesus told Peter he was building and the church has been always and forever predestined to be saved.

The question is simple. Who will be a part of that church. Who will submit to the righteous authority of God, our Creator, and join with the 'church' of our Lord and Savior, Jesus. Praise God!! His plan is perfect and good.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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RobertZ

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Hi Robert,

You wrote: Predestination...it's directly supported and proven by Scripture.

That's absolutely true! It's what I believe! However, where you and I may differ is what the subject of 'predestination' is. The saints are predestined to conform to Christ and to recieve all the wonderful promises of their God. However, the question is not whether or not the predestination of the saints has or hasn't been determined, but rather who will be the saints.

Jim says that it sounds like some space time continuum. No, it is not nearly as difficult a concept to understand.

God predestined in eternity past that the saints would be with Him. Before He ever set the first foundation of the earth in the heavens He knew what He was about. He knew that He would create a creature with free will to choose whether or not they were willing to submit to His authority as Creator. He knew that in the end, He would close the book on this realm of creation and gather to Him all those who made that choice as we live our lives that He has graciously given us. He knew before the foundations of the world that the end of this story would be all about His glory. He knew all of this and He set in place a plan of salvation which began with the writing of His holy word and culminated in the sacrifice of His one and only Son.

The word, the sacrifice of the Son and the eternal home of the saints has all been predestined. Now, what is left is to find out who the saints are. Who will believe Him? Who will be faithful to Him? Who will see and understand and hear and apply the testimony of His word and His Son as the cornerstone of their life? He predestined from eternity past that the 'church', the very building that Jesus is gathering in right now, as you and I sit and type these words and live our lives. He predestined in eternity past that all those who would believe in His one and only Son would be saved.

Those people are the people that Jesus referred to as the 'ekklesia', Paul refers to as the saints and John refers to as the children of God. The 'church' has always been predestined for God's eternal glory. What we are working out today is the building of that 'church'. Just like the Son told you. On this rock I shall build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. That is the assurance that every born again believer rests in.

That once we are born again, we then become a part of Jesus' church. He writes our name in his Book of Life and in the end that 'church' of saints, that has been predestined since before the foundations of the earth were set in place will be saved! Praise God. Give Him glory for we all, though our sins are as scarlet, shall be washed as white as snow by the blood of the one who died for us. We then become a part of the 'church' which Jesus told Peter he was building and the church has been always and forever predestined to be saved.

The question is simple. Who will be a part of that church. Who will submit to the righteous authority of God, our Creator, and join with the 'church' of our Lord and Savior, Jesus. Praise God!! His plan is perfect and good.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted


I think you meant to quote 98cwitr and not me. In either case I do not believe we could ever agree with each other on the issue of free will because it seems to me that you dont believe that man after the fall of adam and eve is born into this world spiritually dead and unable to make a decision for Christ of his own accord. Before the fall their was a free will because mans nature was not yet corrupt, after the fall however that all changed and everyone after the fall is born into this world a slave to sin.

Salvation is all of God and if he didnt specifically choose and draw you to his son you could never have been saved. The new birth doesnt happen based upon someones decision, if it did it then the person making the decision would get credit for re birthing themselves something which is completely and utterly impossible for a human to do. The new birth is a supernatural work of God that none of us are anywhere near capable of understanding.
 
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miamited

Ted
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Hi Robert,

Yes, you are correct. I attributed the quote I copied to you and it should have been 98. My apologies.

However, I also will speak to what you just posted. You wrote: it seems to me that you dont believe that man after the fall of adam and eve is born into this world spiritually dead and unable to make a decision for Christ of his own accord.

Yes, I do agree that after the fall man has always been born spiritually dead. No, I do not agree that we then lost our ability to choose to follow God. Is is, after all, exactly what God laid down to His people when H 'gave them the law. "I have set before life and death. Choose life that you may live."

You then continued: Salvation is all of God and if he didnt specifically choose and draw you to his son you could never have been saved.

I do agree 100% with that.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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RobertZ

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Sometimes its hard for me to put into words what It is that im trying to say so often I do better finding sources on the internet that seem to explain what it is that im trying to explain myself.


How do those who are to receive eternal life come to accepting God? They must turn to Him, but is it that simple? Deuteronomy 30:19 commands us to “choose life” but Romans 3:11 declares that “there is none who seeks for God”(NASB). The whole passage shows that it is impossible for us to carry out this commandment to choose God. There is no-one who will turn from their sinful ways and accept God. So the Athenian belief that God chose those who would accept His gift of grace (like the Jewish belief that God chose Israel because it accepted/would accept Him – See Appendix) must be false. For if that were so, God would foreordain no-one, because He would know that no-one would react appropriately to His gift of grace.

So how is it we have faith, a response to God’s mercy and grace. It is a gift from God, for it says:
“For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. …. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.”(Rom 12:3,6 NIV)
And also:
“Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit…”
(1Cor 12:7-9 NIV)

All reject God and actively disobey Him, and no-one will accept Him until He draws us to Him (Jn 6:44). These few are chosen by God by His grace (Rom 11:5), an undeserved gift (Isa 45:4). “He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created.” (Jas 1:18 NIV) God has chosen a few and hardened the rest (Rom 11:7,8,) He allows and ordains them to be deceived (1Ki 22:19-23, 2Sam 24:1 with 1Chr 21:1), and condemned (Jude 4). Yet God does not do the deceiving. (Jas 1:13-14) It is pointed out that Paul says to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Php 2:12 NIV), yet verse 13 says that “it is God working in (us) to will and to act according to his good purpose.”(NIV) So we are to choose God, turn to Him, yet this act is God acting in us as we are unable to do this by ourselves.

Predestination & ‘Free Will’ and Calvinism & Arminianism
 
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RobertZ

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God often commands fallen man to do things which he knows that man of his own will cannot and will not do so obviously this does not mean that man has a free will just because God commands man to do something. This is why God must first intervene before any man can choose to follow him.
 
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D

dies-l

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Problem is the Bible says no where that fallen man has a free will as much as I would like to believe that he does.

The Bible says nowhere that gravity causes objects to be attracted to each other in such a way that more massive objects (such as planets) generate a greater gravitational attraction than less massive objects.

The Bible says nowhere that a water molecule is made up of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom.

The Bible says nowhere that the square root of 4 is 2.

Yet, I accept all of these things as fact, because they line up with simple human observation, as does the notion of free will. What is more important is that the Bible does not say that man does not possess free will, only that God can use and even intend our evil choices for His own purposes.

The biggest problem with denying free will is that you are left with no explanation for evil that allows God to be both benevolent and omnipotent.
 
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98cwitr

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The Bible says nowhere that gravity causes objects to be attracted to each other in such a way that more massive objects (such as planets) generate a greater gravitational attraction than less massive objects.

The Bible says nowhere that a water molecule is made up of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom.

The Bible says nowhere that the square root of 4 is 2.

Yet, I accept all of these things as fact, because they line up with simple human observation, as does the notion of free will. What is more important is that the Bible does not say that man does not possess free will, only that God can use and even intend our evil choices for His own purposes.

The biggest problem with denying free will is that you are left with no explanation for evil that allows God to be both benevolent and omnipotent.

It's not that "the Bible doesn't say X" it's that the Bible contradicts the very concept of free will. It's made up because people equate "genuine love" with the possession of free will. They then conclude that if God really does love people, free will must be true. Unfortunately, this is not the case at all.
 
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RobertZ

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It's not that "the Bible doesn't say X" it's that the Bible contradicts the very concept of free will. It's made up because people equate "genuine love" with the possession of free will. They then conclude that if God really does love people, free will must be true. Unfortunately, this is not the case at all.

Exactly and I honestly do not understand how anyone who has diligently studied both sides could still convince themselves that man in his fallen state can choose God on his on will.

Its funny because not long ago I was part of the free will camp myself then through much doubt and despair over my own salvation I began to dig deep, really deep! so deep in fact that I no longer accept the free will doctrine.
 
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dwrancho144

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The LORD upholds all who are falling and raises up all who are bowed down. The eyes of all look to you, and you give them their food in due season. You open your hand; you satisfy the desire of every living thing. (Psalm 145:14-16)

My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD, and let all flesh bless his holy name forever and ever. (Psalm 145:21)
 
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