KIngdom of Heaven?

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Dear Friends,
The many facets of Christianity are so evident on this site, I thought some of my friends out there might be somewhat confused. The Jews and disciples in Jesus' day certainly were. Jesus had much to say about the "umbrella" of ideas that comprise the idea of "Christianity". This idea was placed under the name "Kingdom of heaven". A key idea behind Christendom or the Kingdom of heaven is that not all the members are truly converted.
In Matthew chapter 13, Christ compares the K.o.h. as like:
* A Planter that goeth forth to sow seeds. Some fall in different places,and some even grow...but only 25% actually produce real fruit.
* A planter that sows good seed, which will yield a good harvest, but an enemy sneaks in and plants fake wheat ("tares") that are very similar and grow right along with the real wheat. They are not to be removed until the time of harvest.
* A fisherman that sets his nets, getting a large assortment of fishes. He then sits down and sorts the fish out, some goes into the basket to be kept, some are thrown away.

Christ returns to this theme again,as in chapter 22 where He instructs regarding a king that is preparing a wedding feast for his son. Those that were SUPPOSED to be present at the wedding refused,slew his servants,and made light of the whole thing.This resulted in their destruction.(This was Israel,of course) The servents were then sent out to invite everybody, and the Scripture says that they got "good and bad" people to come to the wedding. When the king went in to look over the guests,one man was without a wedding garment, but didn't know why or couldn't give account anyway. So he was thrown out into outer darkness,bound hand and foot.

So from these few illustration of the Master Preacher we see that the Kingdom of heaven is all that care to come in. But ,as chapter 22 says "many are called, but few are chosen." Here we see illustrated the doctrine of election. "Whosoever will may come" but most won't, and "take of the Water of Life freely" which some will and some won't. So when you see fifteen different "flavors" of the faith or more mentioned on this site, be aware that these are the Kingdom of heaven, some of which are truly converted, and some are not. Without this bit of information, the things that "Christians" say and do makes no sense. But know that the ones who have been called and answered that call in repentence and belief are ABSOLUTELY CONVERTED and saved forever.

And,by the way, in chapter 22, you find that the wedding guests are not the Bride of Christ,which is the Church, but include anybody. However, thnkfully, many of those that are guests are actually a part of the Bride.

Oh, and this difference is not earned...it is a free gift, by grace are ye saved....

Julian of York
 
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As I continue my Bible study through the Book of Matthew, I see other references to the Kingdom of heaven. Here is a tough one that took a lot of thinking about this morning:
In the Parable of the Ten Virgins, Jesus again made reference to the Kingdom of heaven. He said that the Bridegroom (Christ) was expected, but had become delayed in His arrival at the Wedding Feast. While He was delayed, all ten of the Virgins dozed off. When the cry went out "The Bridegroom is here!" the five wise Virgins lit their lamps. The foolish Virgins had forgot to get oil! So they begged to borrow some, and in the end went into the city to try and buy some. While they were away, the feast was commenced,and the door was closed. When the five foolish Virgins returned and rapped on the door, the Bridegroom said that He never knew them.

Now, here are the points I found interesting:
* In keeping with other Kingdom of heaven illustrations, some were wise (or righteous) and some were not (the lost)
* All the Virgins fell asleep awaiting the Coming of the Bridegroom.
* The basic difference in the two groups was in one point. Some had oil, and some did not. In the Bible, the use of "oil",especially olive oil such as used in anointing and in lamps, symbolizes the Holy Spirit. We see that in the tongues of flame above the heads of the followers of Christ at Pentecost, the anointing of the Old Testament Priest of God, like Aaron, where the special oil,used only in worship, symbolized the setting aside of the priest as "Holy Unto the Lord". (And it wasn't because Aaron was a great guy,either.Remember his mischief in making a Golden Calf? Yes, he was CHOSEN or ELECTED by God.In spite of his depravity,God had mercy on him)
* Those that had oil were different in one visible aspect: they shone cause they had light! They had light because they had oil! No other reason.

How many of those that are reading this forum today look,act, feel just like the rest ; except "Thou lackest one thing"...no oil.
"If ye,then,being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?"
Do you have the clear presence of the Third Member of the Trinity in your life? Got Oil?

Julian of York
 
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Ormly

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Dear Friends,
The many facets of Christianity are so evident on this site, I thought some of my friends out there might be somewhat confused. The Jews and disciples in Jesus' day certainly were. Jesus had much to say about the "umbrella" of ideas that comprise the idea of "Christianity". This idea was placed under the name "Kingdom of heaven". A key idea behind Christendom or the Kingdom of heaven is that not all the members are truly converted.
In Matthew chapter 13, Christ compares the K.o.h. as like:
* A Planter that goeth forth to sow seeds. Some fall in different places,and some even grow...but only 25% actually produce real fruit.
* A planter that sows good seed, which will yield a good harvest, but an enemy sneaks in and plants fake wheat ("tares") that are very similar and grow right along with the real wheat. They are not to be removed until the time of harvest.
* A fisherman that sets his nets, getting a large assortment of fishes. He then sits down and sorts the fish out, some goes into the basket to be kept, some are thrown away.

Christ returns to this theme again,as in chapter 22 where He instructs regarding a king that is preparing a wedding feast for his son. Those that were SUPPOSED to be present at the wedding refused,slew his servants,and made light of the whole thing.This resulted in their destruction.(This was Israel,of course) The servents were then sent out to invite everybody, and the Scripture says that they got "good and bad" people to come to the wedding. When the king went in to look over the guests,one man was without a wedding garment, but didn't know why or couldn't give account anyway. So he was thrown out into outer darkness,bound hand and foot.

So from these few illustration of the Master Preacher we see that the Kingdom of heaven is all that care to come in. But ,as chapter 22 says "many are called, but few are chosen." Here we see illustrated the doctrine of election. "Whosoever will may come" but most won't, and "take of the Water of Life freely" which some will and some won't. So when you see fifteen different "flavors" of the faith or more mentioned on this site, be aware that these are the Kingdom of heaven, some of which are truly converted, and some are not. Without this bit of information, the things that "Christians" say and do makes no sense. But know that the ones who have been called and answered that call in repentence and belief are ABSOLUTELY CONVERTED and saved forever.

And,by the way, in chapter 22, you find that the wedding guests are not the Bride of Christ,which is the Church, but include anybody. However, thnkfully, many of those that are guests are actually a part of the Bride.

Oh, and this difference is not earned...it is a free gift, by grace are ye saved....

Julian of York

Hi Julian. May I ask what religious persuasion you represent because what you assert really misses the whole of what Jesus was trying to convey?
 
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Thank you for your kind response.
I am a lifelong Baptist that attends a REFORMED Baptist church.
Would you be so kind and point out what you think the Master WAS trying to teach? I covet your response.

Julian of York
"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."Matthew 11:12
 
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Ormly

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Thank you for your kind response.
I am a lifelong Baptist that attends a REFORMED Baptist church.
Would you be so kind and point out what you think the Master WAS trying to teach? I covet your response.

Julian of York
"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."Matthew 11:12

Ah, I was about to reply with this verse you have posted above.

I would like to ask why you believe Jesus would state such a thing about entering the (His) Kingdom since it is assumed that when we are baptized into Him we are 'automatically' of His Kingdom. Obviously that can't be true considering the contradiction in the many lives who make such a claim. What do you think?
 
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riverrat

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Jesus's earthly ministry was to Jews, not gentiles. with only a few exceptions. The "kingdom of heaven" that Jesus taught was the earthly kingdom that jews were expecting and are still are expecting. The "kingdom of heaven" for the body of Christ is in heaven. The kingdom of heaven is always where the king is. When Christ returns to this earth the kingdom of heaven will be on earth.
 
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ebia

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riverrat said:
Jesus's earthly ministry was to Jews, not gentiles. with only a few exceptions. The "kingdom of heaven" that Jesus taught was the earthly kingdom that jews were expecting and are still are expecting. The "kingdom of heaven" for the body of Christ is in heaven. The kingdom of heaven is always where the king is. When Christ returns to this earth the kingdom of heaven will be on earth.

Sorry, but that is wrong. The Kingdom of God is wherever God's rule is happening. So it exists in partial form wherever his people are living true to his calling. It won't be fully realized on earth until the final resurrection, but it's not limited to heaven so long as there are "citizens of heaven" making that heavenly rule a reality (however partially) on earth.
 
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ebia

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heterodoxical said:
I think you'll find the Kingdom of heaven is where the Christ is.
When the Queen goes to Canada, the United Kingdom does not stop being a Kingdom.

The Kingdom of God is wherever God's reign is happening.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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When the Queen goes to Canada, the United Kingdom does not stop being a Kingdom.

The Kingdom of God is wherever God's reign is happening.

Bingo.

Firstly, the kingdom was never meant to be an earthly institution, or do we forget our Lord's words to Pilate, that His kingdom is not of this earth? That does not make it "up there in heaven" however. What it does mean--and this is something Jesus seems to stress again and again--the kingdom He preached about looked nothing like the kingdoms of this world. God's kingdom was nothing like Caesar's kingdom, and it was never about the liberation of Israel from Rome's yoke (something that the disciples continued to be confused upon even after the Lord rose from the dead). It was never to be a second Maccabean affair, or some mere restoration of the Davidic dynasty. This kingdom, in stark contrast to all kingdoms, is God's reign. And how God reigns looks exceedingly different than how men reign: the King of this kingdom wears a crown of thorns. God's kingdom looks like the Cross.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ormly

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The thorns and the cross is the way into the Kingdom. It is called the "way of the cross"; "way of life", that Jesus taught by example from His life for over 3 years.

We learn to enter the Kingdom of God by faith, by "antagonism", no less than He sustained its habitation in His flesh. That is what He implied when He said "the Kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force". Jesus kept it within Him by force [and by Love] from all the darkness of hell that would have had Him fail in keeping it safe__ and He did it with the written word of God, written upon His Heart. Getting to where we can say that we only do what we see our Father doing, is the evidence of our entry into it.
 
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riverrat

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ebia wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat
Jesus's earthly ministry was to Jews, not gentiles. with only a few exceptions. The "kingdom of heaven" that Jesus taught was the earthly kingdom that jews were expecting and are still are expecting. The "kingdom of heaven" for the body of Christ is in heaven. The kingdom of heaven is always where the king is. When Christ returns to this earth the kingdom of heaven will be on earth.
Sorry, but that is wrong. The Kingdom of God is wherever God's rule is happening. So it exists in partial form wherever his people are living true to his calling. It won't be fully realized on earth until the final resurrection, but it's not limited to heaven so long as there are "citizens of heaven" making that heavenly

IMO there is a difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kindgdom of God. You obviously think they are the same which is fine with me. I think the kingdom of heaven is within the kingdom of God. The kingdom of heaven referred to in Mt is the earthly kingdom where Christ will reign as king after he returns to this earth. I agree that the kingdom of God is wherever God's rule is happening. His rule is happeing everywhere from eternity past to eternity future.
 
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Ormly

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ebia wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat
Jesus's earthly ministry was to Jews, not gentiles. with only a few exceptions. The "kingdom of heaven" that Jesus taught was the earthly kingdom that jews were expecting and are still are expecting. The "kingdom of heaven" for the body of Christ is in heaven. The kingdom of heaven is always where the king is. When Christ returns to this earth the kingdom of heaven will be on earth.
IMO there is a difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kindgdom of God. You obviously think they are the same which is fine with me. I think the kingdom of heaven is within the kingdom of God. The kingdom of heaven referred to in Mt is the earthly kingdom where Christ will reign as king after he returns to this earth. I agree that the kingdom of God is wherever God's rule is happening. His rule is happeing everywhere from eternity past to eternity future.

May I say to you ebia that the they are one in the same. Matthew is the only one who speaks of the Kingdom of God as the kingdom of heaven because he was addressing the Jews. Their concept of the kingdom was always in the sense of it being the kingdom of heaven and would not have understood to accept any explanation using any other terminology.. Matthew knew that and that is why we read only from him.
 
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heterodoxical

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May I say to you ebia that the they are one in the same. Matthew is the only one who speaks of the Kingdom of God as the kingdom of heaven because he was addressing the Jews. Their concept of the kingdom was always in the sense of it being the kingdom of heaven and would not have understood to accept any explanation using any other terminology.. Matthew knew that and that is why we read only from him.


Very good, Jesus was a liar, stating the Kingdom was with Him.

Which is it, do you go to heaven or wait for the resurrection? Scripture says resurrection. You present a dilemma.

Report me again. Man doesn't live eternity in Heaven according to scripture. They may go there after death to face book of life, or judgement line, but then immediately they march back to earth with the Messiah. Being outside of time, this Heaven, the "when" of your death on earth doesn't matter. We will show up for judgement the same time Noah does.

And, why did Cain get asked where Able was, because divinity could smell his blood in the earth. If you went to heaven at death, wouldn't God have already had him up there?
 
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Ormly

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Very good, Jesus was a liar, stating the Kingdom was with Him.

Which is it, do you go to heaven or wait for the resurrection? Scripture says resurrection. You present a dilemma.

Report me again. Man doesn't live eternity in Heaven according to scripture. They may go there after death to face book of life, or judgement line, but then immediately they march back to earth with the Messiah. Being outside of time, this Heaven, the "when" of your death on earth doesn't matter. We will show up for judgement the same time Noah does.

And, why did Cain get asked where Able was, because divinity could smell his blood in the earth. If you went to heaven at death, wouldn't God have already had him up there?

Report you?? I never report anyone. Laugh at them?__ that's another matter.
 
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heterodoxical

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Report you?? I never report anyone. Laugh at them?__ that's another matter.

You laugh but lack argument/reason/ answers...

Know what they used to do with people who laughed for no reason? White long armed coats.

The report comment was meant in aa general sense to whomever, but i.didnt do a very good job with that grammatically.
 
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riverrat

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ormly wrote:

May I say to you ebia that the they are one in the same. Matthew is the only one who speaks of the Kingdom of God as the kingdom of heaven because he was addressing the Jews. Their concept of the kingdom was always in the sense of it being the kingdom of heaven and would not have understood to accept any explanation using any other terminology.. Matthew knew that and that is why we read only from him.

You lost me, which is not hard to do. Are you saying Mark, Luke and John were written to gentiles? Israel has always viewed the kingdom as earthly, not heavenly.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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ebia wrote:

Originally Posted by riverrat
Jesus's earthly ministry was to Jews, not gentiles. with only a few exceptions. The "kingdom of heaven" that Jesus taught was the earthly kingdom that jews were expecting and are still are expecting. The "kingdom of heaven" for the body of Christ is in heaven. The kingdom of heaven is always where the king is. When Christ returns to this earth the kingdom of heaven will be on earth.
IMO there is a difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kindgdom of God. You obviously think they are the same which is fine with me. I think the kingdom of heaven is within the kingdom of God. The kingdom of heaven referred to in Mt is the earthly kingdom where Christ will reign as king after he returns to this earth. I agree that the kingdom of God is wherever God's rule is happening. His rule is happeing everywhere from eternity past to eternity future.

Note, however, that where Matthew says "Kingdom of Heaven" the other Synoptics use "Kingdom of God"

"And saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.'" - Matthew 3:2

"And saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the good news!'" - Mark 1:15

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven ... Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:3 and 10

"And He lifted His eyes on His disciples, and said, 'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God ... Blessed are you, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their coompany, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man's sake." - Luke 6:20 and 22

"And I say to you, that many shall come from the east and west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 8:11

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and yourselves cast out." - Luke 13:28

"And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'" - Matthew 10:7

"...go and preach the kingdom of God." - Luke 9:60

"Truly I say to you, among them born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist, notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than him." - Matthew 11:11

"For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist, but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." - Luke 7:28

"He answered and said to them, 'Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.'" - Matthew 13:11

"And He said to them, 'Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but to them that are without, all of this is said in parables.'" - Mark 4:11

"Another parable He put forth to them, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field." - Matthew 13:31

"And He said, 'How shall we compare the kingdom of God? What shall we liken it to? It is like a grain of mustard seed." - Mark 4:30-31

"Another parable He spoke to them, 'The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid three measures of meal, until the whole was leavened.'" - Matthew 13:33

"And again He said, 'How shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole was leavened.'" - Luke 13:20-21

The "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" are identical, "Heaven" is simply a euphemism for God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ormly

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ormly wrote:

You lost me, which is not hard to do. Are you saying Mark, Luke and John were written to gentiles? Israel has always viewed the kingdom as earthly, not heavenly.

You mean they have always looked for the heavenly kingdom to be established upon earth with their tiny nation as the throne of it.

I only mean to point out they never spoke/thought of it as the "kingdom of God" but their own "heavenly" kingdom ruled by Messiah. That is one of the reasons Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about the "Kingdom of God is within you." (Lu 17:21)

Matthew is credited with addressing the Jews concerning all these Jesus Christ as Him being the "Lion of the tribe of Judah". That title he knew the Jews would understand.

I hope that helps.. :)
 
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Ormly

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You laugh but lack argument/reason/ answers...

Know what they used to do with people who laughed for no reason? White long armed coats.

The report comment was meant in aa general sense to whomever, but i.didnt do a very good job with that grammatically.

Nor do you with reasoning. . . . :wave:
 
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