Luther, and the Confession of sins

[seajoy]

Bryne - what is it that you would like to have pastors do differently? I'm a bit confused. Nothing new.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Bryne - what is it that you would like to have pastors do differently? I'm a bit confused. Nothing new.

is the nothing new a reference to what Bryne wants pastors to do differently or to you being confused

 

[seajoy]

is the nothing new a reference to what Bryne wants pastors to do differently or to you being confused

Oh, goodness, my being confused.

 

[DaRev]

If I were having suicidal thoughts, for example, I would confess that to the pastor.

And the pastor would be obligated to follow up on that and, if warranted, to notify the appropriate people to obatain the necessary help.

 

[QuiltAngel]

You confess thought, word and deed. That we have no problem with.

Now if you tell your Pastor that you have sinned by having suicidal thoughts, he can pronounce forgiveness for that sin. Yet, the Pastor is going to talk with you about that and find out where you are in that thought process. Was it a one time thing? Are you still having the thoughts? Do you have a plan to carry it out? He will decide what to do next based on the answer to these and other questions. If he thinks you are going to harm yourself, he will do what he can to get you the help you need. If you seem to be threatening harm to others, the same thing will happen.

I am not sure why that is hard for you to understand. When one says they are going to do something and has a plan, their telling the Pastor of such a thing IS a plea for help. Should he ignore that plea because it is done during confession? I don't think he should.

My husband has helped people obtain help when needed in situations. The people are always thankful for that help.

Let's turn this around a bit. If there was someone you loved, who had gone to the Pastor for confession, confessed that they had thoughts of suicide and the Pastor did nothing to help that person. That person later commits suicide and they write in their note that they talked with the Pastor and the Pastor didn't seem to care. What would you then be saying? Wouldn't you be angry that someone knew and didn't help?

 

[Bryne]

And the pastor would be obligated to follow up on that and, if warranted, to notify the appropriate people to obatain the necessary help.

Ok...now we are back to the original question....

How do you reconcile "don't reveal ANYTHING that is said during cofession" with "tell the authorities if you think the person may harm themselves or others."

Confessing to suicidal thoughts would definitely be a part of confession, since those thoughts are past sins...so you can't say that they are no longer "in confession".


To answer seajoy and QuiltAngel:

I am not saying that I want the pastor to do anything different. At this point, I am not sure what I think would be best. I am just asking questions and trying to decide in my own head.

And it isn't that I don't understand...but there are two different obligations at play here...the obligation to not reveal that which is confessed and the obligation to prevent harm. Determining which is to take precedence is important...how that is seemingly being done is troubling to me.

As for the loved one with suicidal thoughts...the pastor can do things to help without revealing what has been said in confession...it isn't an either/or situation.

 

[DaRev]

Ok...now we are back to the original question....

How do you reconcile "don't reveal ANYTHING that is said during cofession" with "tell the authorities if you think the person may harm themselves or others."

If someone threatens to harm themselves or others, that is not confessing past sins, that's making a statement of future intent. Two completely different things. You can't seem to differentiate between the two. That is where, I beleive. your problem lies.

Confessing to suicidal thoughts would definitely be a part of confession, since those thoughts are past sins...so you can't say that they are no longer "in confession".

If someone says "I had suicidal thoughts", that's an indication of a past act that they are confessing.
But you said in your previous post:

If I were having suicidal thoughts, for example, I would confess that to the pastor.

That tells me that you are currently having suicidal thoughts, and that is a completely different situation. Again, two different things.

 

[Bryne]

If someone threatens to harm themselves or others, that is not confessing past sins, that's making a statement of future intent. Two completely different things. You can't seem to differentiate between the two. That is where, I beleive. your problem lies.

No...I can differentiate between the two just fine...but I don't think that distinction is as important of a distinction as you seem to.

If you have a duty to prevent harm that takes precedent over the duty to not reveal that which is said during confession, then it shouldn't matter how things are phrased.

If someone says "I had suicidal thoughts", that's an indication of a past act that they are confessing.
But you said in your previous post:

If I were having suicidal thoughts, for example, I would confess that to the pastor.

That tells me that you are currently having suicidal thoughts, and that is a completely different situation. Again, two different things.

What I meant was that if I were having suicidal thoughts, then I would know that they were wrong and that it was a sin...I was giving an example of how thinking about something could be a sin... and then I would go to the pastor and confess that I had had those thoughts...I would be confessing to thinking about something. I was asked how thinking about something had anything to do with confession...that is what I was getting at.

Sorry for the confusion.

Though...if a person has suicidal thoughts, they don't really just happen once and then go away. If I had them last night...confess them today...chances are I will have them again. If the duty to prevent harm is takes precedence, then shouldn't you do something? This is my problem with the distinction that you are making.

You seem to be getting around it by claiming that it isn't really "in confession". I just don't see how that can be so. You said that I am making up my own definition of confession, but you haven't been able to provide me with a reference from the LCMS that says I am wrong. If I go to my pastor specifically for private confession and absolution, then I expect anything I say from the moment the confession starts until absolution is pronounce to be considered part of the confession.

I suppose if you gave the disclaimer that you posted earlier, that would make things clear to the person confessing, but my pastor never gave me that disclaimer prior to my private confessions. He did make that clear prior to counseling with my daughter that if he suspected any abuse or if there was any threat of harm, that he would have to report it...but that was a different situation, and was a broader disclaimer than the one you posted...pretty much identical to what any therapist would say.

 

[seajoy]

but my pastor never gave me that disclaimer prior to my private confessions.

Did your pastor tell your confession to someone?

 

[Bryne]

I would I know that? I assume that he did not. And how is that relevant to this discussion?

 

[seajoy]

I would I know that? I assume that he did not. And how is that relevant to this discussion?

I was wondering if that was the reason this whole thing is bothering you so much.

 

[DaRev]

Though...if a person has suicidal thoughts, they don't really just happen once and then go away. If I had them last night...confess them today...chances are I will have them again. If the duty to prevent harm is takes precedence, then shouldn't you do something? This is my problem with the distinction that you are making.

That's where further discussion comes in. It needs to be explored so that the appropriate action can be taken. Whether notification of an appropriate authority is deemed necessary or not will be determined during that discussion.

You seem to be getting around it by claiming that it isn't really "in confession". I just don't see how that can be so. You said that I am making up my own definition of confession, but you haven't been able to provide me with a reference from the LCMS that says I am wrong. If I go to my pastor specifically for private confession and absolution, then I expect anything I say from the moment the confession starts until absolution is pronounce to be considered part of the confession.

You seem to be using a Roman Catholic definition of "confession" as a thing you go to. "I'm going to confession." We define confession as confessing sins that have been committed. That's why in the LCMS we don't call it "coming to confession", we call it "hearing confession".

Also, in our ordination vow we state that we will not divulge the sins confessed to us privately. That doesn't include threats to personal or public harm.

 

[Bryne]

I was wondering if that was the reason this whole thing is bothering you so much.

No...it is more of an intellectual working out of things as opposed to a personal experience sort of thing.

Though, I was part of a church where the pastor did break confidences that were told to him in counseling. I remember him telling me about the marital problems of another couple in the church. He was very young (25) and this was his first church...but I was still rather shocked. Still...this experience didn't cause me to trust any subsequent pastors any less...I just considered it an anomaly. This was before I was Lutheran and in the context of pastoral counseling, not confession.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Coming back to this thread. My question was the beginning of a good deal of spiritual depression, and coming back I must clarify my question. My question more specifically was "must I confess my sins in private to a priest in order to be forgiven of God?" I have some super dark sins in my past..sins that I don't trust any man with...am I still given forgiveness and absolution if I choose to go directly to the Lord in confession rather than to the priest?

 

[Bryne]

No, you don't need to confess directly to a pastor or priest...yes, you can go directly to God.

Sometimes, though, confessing to a pastor helps us have assurance of forgiveness of sins. Even if you don't specifically name the sins, it can be helpful to get absolution from a pastor because it reassures us that God has indeed forgiven us.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

No, you don't need to confess directly to a pastor or priest...yes, you can go directly to God.

Sometimes, though, confessing to a pastor helps us have assurance of forgiveness of sins. Even if you don't specifically name the sins, it can be helpful to get absolution from a pastor because it reassures us that God has indeed forgiven us.

Thank you, this was the kind of answer I was hoping to get when I initially created this thread. As I understand it, there is also a corporate confession as well is there not?

 

[Bryne]

Yes...we do corporate confession during our services.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Thank you, I have a nice odd feeling of clarity about me now..just kinda a "at peace" type feeling. I personally was able to resolve the issue, but I still hadn't resolved the issue of what the Lutherans believed. I walked away from pursuing Lutheranism because of this, but now I have the cleared conscience, and feel at eaz for re-exploring it.

 

[MaryEmily]

I had some ugliness from my past I just could not face telling to the pastor, face to face. I wound up sending him an email and getting it out like that was so much easier. He was very kind and gracious and actually having it written down like he did, made it easy to go back and say to myself - see, you are forgiven. I was able to talk to him about it in person after that. It just wasn't "hanging" on my consciounce at all by then. I knew I had been forgiven and that was that.

It became a question of could/would God forgive me of this sin rather than He did and will and HAS forgiven me of this sin. I was limiting what Jesus did for me on the cross in my mind.

All I can say is that it was very freeing and good to have done it. I don't think I would be so scared to do it in person after that experience. I just don't plan on doing anything majorly bad like that in my future. I felt like if I could admit this and go on with life, there really isn't anything I can't tell him. Really.

 

[Tangible]

That's one of the best things about private confession, actually. Things that haunt you from your past are things the enemy can easily use to attack you with. When you bring them out into the light - even if it's just between you and your pastor - it empties those secret sins of their power to make you feel guilty and ashamed. Hearing your pastor announce to you the forgiveness of all your sins - even those sins - is incredibly liberating. It's the power of the Gospel.