Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (4)

[11822]

And still you continue to want it your way.

Yes we are like children both of us. However abstaining from fornication and adultery is Gods will and its just as relevant as grace to this discussion, may i suggest Burger king?

 

[Studious One]

It seems like you want to have it your way.

Romans 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Galatians 3:1-5 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:10-12 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

1 Timothy 1:9-11 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

These are just a handful of the many verses that teach us that we are not bound to the law. The problem is not with us, it is with those who would try to bring us under the law and into condemnation.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

You can hold on to the letters, I will continue to walk in the Spirit.

 

[Studious One]

You do realize, don't you, that every time you point the condemning finger of fornication and adultery that you have three of your own fingers pointing back at you?

By what measure you judge others, you yourself are judged.

 

[11822]

Romans 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

This is interesting. Notice how Paul is teaching faith to the Hebrews but law to the Corinthians while using the same example of Moses in the wilderness?



1 Corinthians 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.



Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[11822]

You do realize, don't you, that every time you point the condemning finger of fornication and adultery that you have three of your own fingers pointing back at you?

By what measure you judge others, you yourself are judged.

If anyone is condemning its not me. Im just posting NT doctrine relevant to the thread.

 

[Deaver]

This post is a bit long; some times I get carried away, usually in my first post on a thread.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16 KJV)

I think it is clear in Romans 1:16 that we can say the gospel applies to Jews and Gentiles alike. In 2nd Peter, Peter wrote to exhort his readers to grow in their faith in and knowledge of Christ.

“From: Shim`on Kefa, a slave and emissary of Yeshua the Messiah To: Those who, through the righteousness of our God and of our Deliverer Yeshua the Messiah, have been given the same kind of trust as ours:” (2 Peter 1:1 CJB)

“And think of our Lord's patience as deliverance, just as our dear brother Sha'ul also wrote you, following the wisdom God gave him. Indeed, he speaks about these things in all his letters. They contain some things that are hard to understand, things which the uninstructed and unstable distort, to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. But you, dear friends, since you know this in advance, guard yourselves; so that you will not be led away by the errors of the wicked and fall from your own secure position. And keep growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah. To him be the glory, both now and forever! Amen.” (2 Peter 3:15-18 CJB)

I used the Complete Jewish Bible in the two scriptures above to provide clarity to my point that Peter acknowledged Paul's writings to be relevant to all his readers as well

Paul's writings indeed often address Jews as well as Gentiles (see Romans 2-3). We see in the book of Acts that Paul would often preach to the Jews first. However, as we examine the book of Romans, do we see Paul present a different means of justification for Jews than for Gentiles? No!

“Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” (Romans 10:1-4 KJV)

“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:12-13 KJV)

“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:” (Romans 3:20-24 KJV)

Some want to propose that because Paul agreed to make the Gentiles the main target of his ministry while the other apostles focused on the Jews, that therefore the message to Jews is not relevant to Gentiles. And therefore the letters of Peter only apply to Jews. Yet we read, from Peter, in 2nd Peter above, "Paul also wrote you". Although Peter and Paul for a time focused on a different ministry target, their essential message was the same: “for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”.

So having said all that, to the question before us, Were Old Testament Saints justified by the Law, or were they also under a covenant of Grace? And is the Old Testament relevant to Christians?

First we see Paul as a Jew is speaking to Peter as a Jew

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16 KJV)

In Peterson’s paraphrase, ‘The Message it reads as follows:

“We know very well that we are not set right with God by rule-keeping but only through personal faith in Jesus Christ. How do we know? We tried it--and we had the best system of rules the world has ever seen! Convinced that no human being can please God by self-improvement, we believed in Jesus as the Messiah so that we might be set right before God by trusting in the Messiah, not by trying to be good.” (Galatians 2:16 MSG)

Paul pursues the argument on the subject of justification by faith with a quote from Habakkuk 2:4, applying it to both Jews and Gentiles in Galatians 3

“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.” (Galatians 3:11 KJV)

My last point, Paul states that no law was ever given that could justify a person, and therefore no one in the Old Testament was ever justified by obeying a law

“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” (Galatians 3:21-24 KJV)

 

[Arthur57]

From Paul perspective that negates the speculation of whether the law is required for Christ believers or not, I may say that:

1. The law is and remains God’s law.
Romans 7:22
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
Romans 7:25
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Paul’s delights in the law of God, and through Christ he is able to serve the law with his mind, which is the mind of Christ after his conversion, for when he lived by his carnal mind, which is not subject to the law of God (Romans 8:7), all what he has was a war within him that left him powerless to do what he desired to do, which is good.

2. The law is spiritual.
Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For the law reflects the spiritual nature of the Law Giver, His agape love. So it can only be internalized and observe by the enabling power of the Spirit. Thus, only those “who walks after the Spirit” can fulfill “the righteous demands of the law” (Romans 8:4). Carnally minded people could not fulfill this righteous requirements, for the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, never indeed can be (Romans 8:7).

3. The law expressed the will of God for human life.
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. Romans 13:8
However, what the Law requires is not merely outward obedience but a submissive, loving response to God.

4. The law is described as the Ten Commandments.
"The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,' and any other commandment, are summed up in the sentence, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law" (ROM 13: 9-10).
Notice the ”and any other commandment” presupposes the rest of the Ten Commandments, since love fulfills not only the last six commandments that affect our relationship with fellow beings, but also the first four commandments that govern our relationship with God.

5. The law reveals the nature of sin.
for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20.
I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” Romans 7:7.
Because the Law causes people to recognize their sins and themselves as sinners, it is self-evident that this important function of the Law could not have been terminated by Christ, since the need to acknowledge sin in one's life is as fundamental to the life of Christians today as it was for the Israelites of old.

Therefore, I will shout together with Paul: Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31.

To be continued…

 

[surrender1]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here...

Yes, a Christian should keep the 10 commandments.

 

[Elder 111]

Please show me where, in the Old Testament, all men entered into the Sinaitic Covenant and thus became part of the nation of Israel.

Thank you.

Did I say that? I said that salvation is the same for all times and people. According to Hebrews, the blood of bulls and goats could never atone for sins. By what means was salvation offered to the believers of old?

 

[Elder 111]

What in Frogsters post is a satanic invention? I'm looking for specific item(s).

The whole idea of the ten commandments being abolished.

 

[MamaZ]

The whoe Idea is that the ten commandments were fulfilled and nailed to the cross.

 

[Stryder06]

The whoe Idea is that the ten commandments were fulfilled and nailed to the cross.

That idea is wrong. How is the command "Thou shalt have no other god's before me" fulfilled at the cross?

Those laws weren't there to be fulfilled. The laws regarding the typical sacrifices were fulfilled.

 

[Stryder06]

It appears to me that one must be taught what sin is after the tutor (the law) proved one needed Jesus Christ. Hmmm! wouldn't that mean that the law (tutor) wasn't doing its job? So how or when does one learn what sin is? Before or after conversion? If it is after conversion, what is one converted to?

I thought those were points in the Noaic covenant.

The law is doing it's job just fine. The law stands as a standard. It reveals sin, nothing more, nothing less. It's no different then in any given society. There are a myriad of laws I'm not familiar with that my lawyer friend is. Does that mean the law isn't doing it's job? Does that mean I can't be held guilty for breaking one of those laws even though I don't know about it? That's not how it works for us, so why would it be any different for God?

The law let's one know "You need Christ" and then for there we move forward in our walk with Christ. That doesn't negate the effectiveness of the law or the fact that it still applies. Should I fall away from my walk with God the law will stand and I will be guilty of breaking it.

 

[Stryder06]

Scripture does not even suggest that is was the way the Pharisees inerpreted the law. It is not modern day understanding but the written scripture kept in the full context of the full written of the scriptures.

Doesn't it? If the law, for instance, as given by God, made it a sin to pick up your bed, and walk, during the sabbath day, Jesus would have been clearly in the wrong for telling the man to do so. If healing the sick on the sabbath would have been against the law, as given by God, again, Christ would have been in violation of it.

God gave the law one way, man turned it into something else. This is why Jesus was able to ask them "Which one of you convicts Me of sin".

The written scripture is not what you're reading. You're reading your modern understanding tainted by tradition, into the scripture. No where does scripture say the ten commandments have been abolished. If this was so, then John would not have seen the original copy in heaven during his vision.

 

[Stryder06]

Please quote the post where I said there was no law.

I won't try to explain to God the justification of any sin. I have already past the judgement and have been granted life - Jn 5:24. I'm certianly not like the rich young man of Mat 19. Nor will I ever say to God I did thus and so. I will say Jesus and that is all I need to say according to the Bible I have and read.

Many will say "Jesus" and many will hear "I never knew thee".

I need to ask what you think burden is and what it means to the sabbath. What is the day of preperation? Isn't that serving the sabbath? I think so. One must abstain from purssing a livelyhood to keep from sinning on the sabbath according to the meaning and concept. Yet Jesus said the sabbath was created for man. Please note that I didn't say that, Jesus did. The day of preparation is indeed serving the day. I never said the sabbath day was burdensome, ever anywhere. The 7th day sabbath doesn't apply to me as a Christian. Or it wasn't given exclusively to the Israelites. If it is indeed given to everyone it can't be special or have sepecial significance to Israel as the Bible clearly states.

I can't help that you think the day of preparation is somehow a sign that you're serving the sabbath. And I don't know why you think you can't pursue a livelihood is you keep the sabbath. I'm not doing half bad if I do say so myself, and neither are many of my friends, all who honor the Lord's Day. Jesus did indeed say sabbath was made for man. That is what He said. What I didn't hear him say was "Sabbath was made for Israel" or "Sabbath was made for the Jews". Same thing is said in Isa 56 verse 2: Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Back in Isa 56:8 God speaks of bringing strangers into the fold. That's pretty similar to what the Lord said in John 10:16.

Isa 56:6-7: Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

There's really no two ways around this. Before Christ people were joined to the Lord and the sign was circumcision. After Christ gentiles were still joined to the Lord, but the sign was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The sabbath is special to the Lord, and by it He distinguishes His people.

 

[Stryder06]

Thou art not fooling us. We can read.

Reading isn't the issue. Comprehension is.

 

[Stryder06]

For some reason, I am not sure you do. The Apostle Paul taught that the Law is not for the righteous (those in Christ), yet you keep insisting it is.

I hope you don't mind if I ask you this.

What I understand from Paul is that the law is not for us in that it no longer holds a penalty against us.

However, what happens is say I slip into an adulterous affair. While I'm in that state, does the law apply to me?

 

[from scratch]

the law party were of the talmud pushers... and like Yeshua we are all against that..

I think that is speculation. hey were pushing circumcision and the law of Moses. It doesn't say anything about the talmud. Dr Luke demonstrated in his Godpel that he is a careful detail man. Acts says nothang about additional Jewish customs.

 

[visionary]

I think that is speculation. hey were pushing circumcision and the law of Moses. It doesn't say anything about the talmud. Dr Luke demonstrated in his Godpel that he is a careful detail man. Acts says nothang about additional Jewish customs.

Oral Traditions were not written down until later... so calling it TAlmud in scripture didn't happen.

 

[from scratch]

The law is doing it's job just fine. The law stands as a standard. It reveals sin, nothing more, nothing less. It's no different then in any given society. There are a myriad of laws I'm not familiar with that my lawyer friend is. Does that mean the law isn't doing it's job? Does that mean I can't be held guilty for breaking one of those laws even though I don't know about it? That's not how it works for us, so why would it be any different for God?

The law let's one know "You need Christ" and then for there we move forward in our walk with Christ. That doesn't negate the effectiveness of the law or the fact that it still applies. Should I fall away from my walk with God the law will stand and I will be guilty of breaking it.

I don't think you understood me at all.

I suggest that at least some things that are wrong, evil, sin aren't learned from the law that they're such. Granted the law leads us to Christ by showing what righteousness is. When that is accomplished the tutor (the law) has completed its task for the Christian. For those who reject Christ the law is still enforce and will testify againist them at the White Throne Jedgment. Christians won't attend that judgment because they have already passed from death (judgment) to life - Jn 5:24.

There are some very wonderful things about this type of communication. If I'm having trouble understanding a post of an ongoing conversation I back track to see if I can decide what is being said. I think it would be a good idea in this one. I have and you should. I even open a second window and go back and forth several times. This is getting to bemore of a habit for more and more posts with my name on them.