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Issues in Scienceville.

AV1611VET

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The U.S. is slowly, well maybe quickly, becoming a third world country. We are slipping in health, education, economic output, vitally everything seems to be sliding towards another Dark Ages where science is persecuted by the right wing religious nuts.
Yes, indeed -- virtually everything seams to be sliping at a Dark Agis, wear wii is failling exspecilly in the area of educashun.

Wii can it leest look intelijents, can't wii.
 
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Cabal

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Cabal

Congratulations on your paper, I do hope it gets published.

Me too :thumbsup: first publication, so I'll make it a good 'un :D

The U.S. is slowly, well maybe quickly, becoming a third world country. We are slipping in health, education, economic output, vitally everything seems to be sliding towards another Dark Ages where science is persecuted by the right wing religious nuts.

I wouldn't go that far. But certainly it is annoying to have such a vital sector as science interfered with by people who know little about it.

But that seems to be what a lot of Americans want, to return to “the good old days”. Like there ever was any to begin with.

Again, it depends on what, but I think such desires are based around a halcyon view of the past that never really existed - and that's not limited to the US either.
 
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mzungu

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I wouldn't go that far. But certainly it is annoying to have such a vital sector as science interfered with by people who know little about it.
At least there is Europe to take the slack! ESA, CERN, Max Plank institute, etc, :wave:
 
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selfinflikted

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The U.S. is slowly, well maybe quickly, becoming a third world country. We are slipping in health, education, economic output, virtually everything seems to be sliding towards another Dark Ages where science is persecuted by the right wing religious nuts.

But that seems to be what a lot of Americans want, to return to “the good old days”. Like there ever was any to begin with.

Did someone open a window? How'd this fresh air get in here?! ;)
 
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Inan3

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It's no wonder teenage suicides are on the increase; these poor kids are being pressured to overachieve by a group of narcissistic zealots.

Nah, they're much more likely to commit suicide from a group of narcissistic zealots driving them to it because they happen to like people of the same gender and that's wrong because their god says it is.

My take on why kids commit suicide is that they have no inner strength to draw from.

First, all competition is taken away from them in our society. We don't want to hurt their little psychies. So they don't learn "how" to strengthen themselves inwardly. I believe it is just like exercise of the physical body. You start out small and then just keep adding a little resistance over time. Then you are able to handle the heavier and weightier matters. Today when teenagers encounter the heavier issues and they now have to deal with more things on their own, they cave because they don't have the inner fortitude to do so.

Second, try to convince them that certain things are okay to do. On the inside they know what is right and wrong but now they are confused and unable to decide how or what to choose. Which way do they go? There needs to be a moral standard to live by and that has all been taken away.

Third, kids have been told there is no God that cares for them or will help them. There just is no God at all. When people fail them and it seems those in authority are doing so more and more because they themselves have not defined direction, the kids think, what the hey, what's the use in trying. What kind of a future do I have any way and if I just kill myself that's a way out. Nothing and noOne to be accountable to. Just the easy way out.

God has given us a standard to live by and He has faith in us that we can do it. He has offered and given us help in the time of need. When we take away God's confidence in our ability to be able to cope with standards by actually taking away God, we weaken our children. We do NOT strengthen them. One of the scrariest things in the world for many people is that they will fail. God says YOU WON'T. I will help you. One of the best feelings in the world is when you come up against the challenge and succeed. Nothing else can strengthen us more to know we tried and even though it was hard we did it!! That is what makes life good....conquering one challenge after another.

I was looking at some material on narcissism and inferiority and superiority complexes and they all stem from a feeling of insecurity and failure. Just the mere pressure to always be perfect, to always perform, to be accepted is enough to break a person down emotionally and mentally. Drugs can't help, people don't help, only God can get down to the nitty gritty of our inner most being and help us. Being accepted and encouraged by God is enough.
 
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Hespera

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My take on why kids commit suicide is that they have no inner strength to draw from.
First, all competition is taken away from them in our society. We don't want to hurt their little psychies. So they don't learn "how" to strengthen themselves inwardly. I believe it is just like exercise of the physical body. You start out small and then just keep adding a little resistance over time. Then you are able to handle the heavier and weightier matters. Today when teenagers encounter the heavier issues and they now have to deal with more things on their own, they cave because they don't have the inner fortitude to do so.
Second, try to convince them that certain things are okay to do. On the inside they know what is right and wrong but now they are confused and unable to decide how or what to choose. Which way do they go? There needs to be a moral standard to live by and that has all been taken away.

Third, kids have been told there is no God that cares for them or will help them. There just is no God at all. When people fail them and it seems those in authority are doing so more and more because they themselves have not defined direction, the kids think, what the hey, what's the use in trying. What kind of a future do I have any way and if I just kill myself that's a way out. Nothing and noOne to be accountable to. Just the easy way out.
God has given us a standard to live by and He has faith in us that we can do it. He has offered and given us help in the time of need. When we take away God's confidence in our ability to be able to cope with standards by actually taking away God, we weaken our children. We do NOT strengthen them. One of the scrariest things in the world for many people is that they will fail. God says YOU WON'T. I will help you. One of the best feelings in the world is when you come up against the challenge and succeed. Nothing else can strengthen us more to know we tried and even though it was hard we did it!! That is what makes life good....conquering one challenge after another.
I was looking at some material on narcissism and inferiority and superiority complexes and they all stem from a feeling of insecurity and failure. Just the mere pressure to always be perfect, to always perform, to be accepted is enough to break a person down emotionally and mentally. Drugs can't help, people don't help, only God can get down to the nitty gritty of our inner most being and help us. Being accepted and encouraged by God is enough.


First, all competition is taken away from them in our society

I mostly agree, and that is a dangerous weakness in american society. China, japan, Korea are intensely competitive. After we came to the USA I was home many many evenings and weekends with homework study music lessons while the other kids were going to movies and hanging out.

As for the things about being told there is no god, and standards coming from that source. i wasnt really told there is no god, kind of like i wasnt told other things that were just the air we breathed. Like ethics, morality sstandards of conduct; that isnt church stuff to us, its how we live.


As for narcissism, from my perspective that is something we see in people who think they are important enough that the Creator of the Universe is personally interested in them, helps them out, listens to what they have to say. That they are among the Few who possess the key to true religion, and inerrant interpretation of the bible.

Maybe you never thought of looking at it as I do; how does that seem to you?
 
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Nathan Poe

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My take on why kids commit suicide is that they have no inner strength to draw from.

Interesting.

First, all competition is taken away from them in our society. We don't want to hurt their little psychies. So they don't learn "how" to strengthen themselves inwardly. I believe it is just like exercise of the physical body. You start out small and then just keep adding a little resistance over time. Then you are able to handle the heavier and weightier matters. Today when teenagers encounter the heavier issues and they now have to deal with more things on their own, they cave because they don't have the inner fortitude to do so.

Then what we need is a society which pushes for competition, as opposed to idolizing medioctrity.

Second, try to convince them that certain things are okay to do. On the inside they know what is right and wrong but now they are confused and unable to decide how or what to choose. Which way do they go? There needs to be a moral standard to live by and that has all been taken away.

Agreed there needs to be a moral standard -- the question is, who decides what the standard is? If you're saying "on the inside they know right from wrong," then you're implying that they create their own moral standard -- which is no standard at all.

So which is it?

Third, kids have been told there is no God that cares for them or will help them. There just is no God at all. When people fail them and it seems those in authority are doing so more and more because they themselves have not defined direction, the kids think, what the hey, what's the use in trying. What kind of a future do I have any way and if I just kill myself that's a way out. Nothing and noOne to be accountable to. Just the easy way out.

And how does having a God who has failed them as well make the situation any easier?

God has given us a standard to live by and He has faith in us that we can do it. He has offered and given us help in the time of need. When we take away God's confidence in our ability to be able to cope with standards by actually taking away God, we weaken our children. We do NOT strengthen them. One of the scrariest things in the world for many people is that they will fail. God says YOU WON'T. I will help you. One of the best feelings in the world is when you come up against the challenge and succeed. Nothing else can strengthen us more to know we tried and even though it was hard we did it!! That is what makes life good....conquering one challenge after another.

So when someone comes against a challenge and fails, who has failed -- them, or God?

I was looking at some material on narcissism and inferiority and superiority complexes and they all stem from a feeling of insecurity and failure. Just the mere pressure to always be perfect, to always perform, to be accepted is enough to break a person down emotionally and mentally.

Weren't you just complaining that competition has been taken away from society? The purpose of competition is to win -- and the way to win is to perform.


Drugs can't help, people don't help, only God can get down to the nitty gritty of our inner most being and help us. Being accepted and encouraged by God is enough.

Apparantly not, since He needs you.
 
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Inan3

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As for narcissism, from my perspective that is something we see in people who think they are important enough that the Creator of the Universe is personally interested in them, helps them out, listens to what they have to say. That they are among the Few who possess the key to true religion, and inerrant interpretation of the bible.

Maybe you never thought of looking at it as I do; how does that seem to you?

Probably not because I am not narcissistic.

"People with narcissistic personality disorder often display snobbish, disdainful, or patronizing attitudes."
Narcissistic Personality Disorder - Psych Central

"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. Those with narcissistic personality disorder believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism. "
Narcissistic personality disorder - MayoClinic.com

"Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:
  • Believing that you're better than others
  • Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
  • Exaggerating your achievements or talents
  • Expecting constant praise and admiration
  • Believing that you're special and acting accordingly
  • Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
  • Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
  • Taking advantage of others
  • Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
  • Being jealous of others
  • Believing that others are jealous of you
  • Trouble keeping healthy relationships
  • Setting unrealistic goals
  • Being easily hurt and rejected
  • Having a fragile self-esteem
  • Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional"
Narcissistic personality disorder: Symptoms - MayoClinic.com
 
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Inan3

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Then what we need is a society which pushes for competition, as opposed to idolizing medioctrity..

I don't think the word "pushes" is what I would use..."encourages..promotes..teaches" would explain better what I was thinking.

Agreed there needs to be a moral standard -- the question is, who decides what the standard is? If you're saying "on the inside they know right from wrong," then you're implying that they create their own moral standard -- which is no standard at all.

That's where their confusion comes in. Teenagers are not mature enough to make the decision within themselves, especially if they have NEVER had to make choices to that end. They are easily influenced to go the easier route but on the inside it is actually the less fulfilling route. And whether or not they understand this, they feel it and it leaves them feeling inadequate or empty.


And how does having a God who has failed them as well make the situation any easier?

God has NOT failed them. Society has by not pointing them to a loving and good God but rather painting a picture of the opposite. People will not come to a being, whether God or human that does not love them or accept them.

So when someone comes against a challenge and fails, who has failed -- them, or God?

Not necessarily either. Failure is a natural part of the process. It is the response to failure that either strengthens us or brings us down. God's response to failure is "Let me help." He can't help though if people won't let Him.

Weren't you just complaining that competition has been taken away from society? The purpose of competition is to win -- and the way to win is to perform.

Actually I was not complaining but in the case of narcisists, they either had UNDUE and EXTREME pressure to perform or they were left to themselves. That is why I suggested that you start out small and add a little resistance at a time to strengthen them over a period of time. Rather than coddling them at a young age and telling them they do not have to do what they do not want to do or that they have to do beyond what is necessary. Discipline is good. Over discipline is not. Underdiscipline is not. The latter two leave people angry and afraid.

Apparantly not, since He needs you.

Well, there is some truth to that because He uses us to help each other but He is there to help us and then we pass it on.:)
 
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Inan3

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OMGoodness!!! Look what I just found!!! It's amazing to me that there are people and proofs out there which EXACTLY confirm my beliefs (well, some of them).

While some of it's contents contradicts other things I disagree with such as the age of man, FOR THIS THREAD it proves EXACTLY what I have suggested and adhered to in many of my posts. With subsequent posters denying my assertions and accusing me of lying and trying to bring disdain upon "Scienceville." I submit to you proof of my suspicions. I highlight and capitalize my points.

Article #2 - Exposing a Scientific Coverup

Excerpts and web address follows:

" In 1966 respected archeologist Virginia Steen-McIntyre and her associates on a U.S. Geological Survey team working under a grant from the National Science Foundation were called upon to date a pair of remarkable archeological sites in Mexico. Sophisticated stone tools rivaling the best work of Cro-magnon man in Europe had been discovered at Hueyatlaco, while somewhat cruder implements had been turned up at nearby El Horno. The sites, it was conjectured, were very ancient, perhaps as old as 20,000 years, which, according to prevailing theories, would place them very close to the dawn of human habitation in the Americas.


Steen-McIntyre, knowing that if such antiquity could indeed be authenticated, her career would be made, set about an exhaustive series of tests. Using four different, but well accepted, dating methods, including uranium series and fission track, she determined to get it right. Nevertheless, when the results came in, the original estimates proved to be way off. Way under as it turned out. The actual age was conclusively demonstrated to be more like a quarter of a million years.

As we might expect, some controversy ensued.


Steen-McIntyre's date challenged not only ACCEPTED chronologies for human presence in the region, but contradicted ESTABLISHED notions of how long modern humans could have been anywhere on Earth. Nevertheless, the massive reexamination of ORTHODOX theory and the wholesale rewriting of textbooks which one might logically have expected DID NOT ENSUE. What did follow was the PUBLIC RIDICULE of Steen-McIntyre's work and the VILIFICATION of her character. She has NOT BEEN ABLE TO FIND WORK IN HER FIELD SINCE.


More than a century earlier, following the discovery of gold in California's Table Mountain and the subsequent digging of thousands of feet of mining shafts, miners began to bring up hundreds of stone artifacts and even human fossils. Despite their origin in geological strata documented at 9 to 55 million years in age, California state geologist J. D. Whitney was able subsequently to authenticate many of the finds and to produce an extensive and authoritative report. The implications of Whitney's evidence have never been properly answered or explained by the establishment, yet the entire episode has been VIRTUALLY IGNORED and references to it have VANISHED FROM the textbooks.


For decades miners in South Africa have been turning up from strata nearly three billion years in age hundreds of small metallic spheres with encircling parallel grooves. Thus far, the scientific community has failed to take note.

Among scores of such cases cited in the recently published Forbidden Archeology (and in the condensed version The Hidden History of the Human Race) it is clear that these three are by no means uncommon. Suggesting nothing less than a massive cover-up, co-authors Michael Cremo and Richard Thompson believe that when it comes to explaining the origins of the human race on earth, academic science has cooked the books.


While the public may believe that all the real evidence supports the mainstream theory of evolution with its familiar timetable for human development (i.e., Homo Sapiens of the modern type going back to only about 100,000 years) Cremo and Thompson demonstrate that, to the contrary, a virtual MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE produced by REPUTABLE scientists applying standards just as exacting, if not more so, than the establishment has been not only IGNORED but, in many cases, ACTUALLY SUPRESSED. In EVERY area of research, from paleontology to anthropology and archeology, that which is presented to the public as established and irrefutable fact is indeed nothing more, says Cremo, THAN A CONCENSUS arrived at by POWERFUL GROUPS OF PEOPLE.


Is that consensus justified by the evidence? Cremo and Thompson say no.

Carefully citing all available documentation, the authors produce case after case of contradictory research conducted in the last two centuries. Included are detailed descriptions of the controversy and ultimate suppression following each discovery. Typical is the case of George Carter who claimed to have found, at an excavation in San Diego, hearths and crude stone tools at levels corresponding to the last interglacial period, some 80,000-90,000 years ago. Even though Carter's work was endorsed by some experts such as lithic scholar John Witthoft, the establishment scoffed. San Diego State University REFUSED to even look at the evidence in its own back yard and Harvard University PUBLICLY DEFAMED HIM in a course on Fantastic Archeology.


What emerges is a picture of an ARROGANT and BIGOTED academic ELITE interested more in the PRESERVATION of its OWN PREROGATIVES and authority than the truth. "

Exposing A Scientific Coverup



This encapsulates all that I have been saying and everyone has been denying for years on this forum.
 
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sandwiches

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Could you maybe cut to the chase and tell us what general point you are trying to get across?

It's the unbelievable revelation that not all scientists agree on matters which aren't very solidly evidenced.
 
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Greg1234

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Yep, and you might also be interested in The Calaveras Skull. To put it analogically, imagine you find a body and a used gun, document the scene, wrap up the evidence, and send it to the lab.

Two weeks later, Johnny et al are playing cops and robbers with their new X57 Super soaker water gun. Back at headquarters, there was no body, no magnum, just Johnny and his friends playing cops and robbers. We even have the X57, see? Sure, Johnny says that his gun looks nothing like the crime scene gun but we are all adults here. Are you really going to listen to a child?
 
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Cabal

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Still just about one field, Inan - that's only two out of many you've listed - and you haven't even commented on the responses people made to your first example, which didn't turn out quite to be what you thought it was.

And all you present for the second one is an article without any references to back things up? Come on, Inan - you can do better than this. Why is this guy's opinion automatically valid to you, without question? How do you know he's not wrong and isn't just presenting a very biased view of things himself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hueyatlaco
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/lepper.html
 
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Cabal

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The ironic thing is is that if we were to take these guy's claims at face value and then it was discovered to be wrong, creationists would be honking at us that we're corrupt for taking fakes seriously, like they think we did with Piltdown man, Nebraska man, etc.

Just can't win with these people.
 
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Nathan Poe

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I don't think the word "pushes" is what I would use..."encourages..promotes..teaches" would explain better what I was thinking.

Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other.


That's where their confusion comes in. Teenagers are not mature enough to make the decision within themselves, especially if they have NEVER had to make choices to that end. They are easily influenced to go the easier route but on the inside it is actually the less fulfilling route. And whether or not they understand this, they feel it and it leaves them feeling inadequate or empty.

So they don't know right and wrong on the inside -- not yet, anyway.


God has NOT failed them. Society has by not pointing them to a loving and good God but rather painting a picture of the opposite. People will not come to a being, whether God or human that does not love them or accept them.

And when they have such a being, whether God or human, who loves tham and accepts them, and they still fail, what then?

(side note -- when my friend came out of the closet to his parents, they threw him out of the house -- literally and physically, in fact, breaking three of his ribs in the process. Who will he turn to for love and acceptance?)

Not necessarily either. Failure is a natural part of the process. It is the response to failure that either strengthens us or brings us down. God's response to failure is "Let me help." He can't help though if people won't let Him.

Of course failure is a natural part of the process -- so is the desire to learn from ones mistakes and try again.

That takes a kind of courage -- the courage to try knowing one might fail; the courage to believe in oneself knowing they might be wrong -- I've rarely seen from most religious types -- it's called "faith."

Actually I was not complaining but in the case of narcisists, they either had UNDUE and EXTREME pressure to perform or they were left to themselves. That is why I suggested that you start out small and add a little resistance at a time to strengthen them over a period of time. Rather than coddling them at a young age and telling them they do not have to do what they do not want to do or that they have to do beyond what is necessary. Discipline is good. Over discipline is not. Underdiscipline is not. The latter two leave people angry and afraid.

Which brings us back to the question of who decides how much resistence is enough? You? Me? God?

Well, there is some truth to that because He uses us to help each other but He is there to help us and then we pass it on.:)

Help us how? Something besides warm fuzzies, I presume?
 
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