Protestant canon

[Rick Otto]

Oh no you didn't.

Catholicism is christian and we don't worship Mary.

Sure ya do. Hyperdulia worship. Be informed, not embarrassed.

 

[hedrick]

The Jewish Encyclopedia suggests that the criteria finally used was inspiration.They wanted books that were directly inspired by God, which they understood to mean written by a prophet. As you know, traditionally the historical books were all understood to have been written by a prophet, Moses for the first 5.

This seems to correspond to the criteria used for the NT, which seems to generally have been authorship by an Apostle (in some loose sense).

The problem with these definitions is that in retrospect I think their judgements on authorship were a bit naive. And yet I think the results are about right. For the OT, what we get is the story of God's public interventions in history: creation, calling of Israel, bringing it out of Egypt, and then a portion of Israel's history that was interpreted by prophets who were directly inspired. Now of all history is under God's supervision, but for Scripture we pick parts where God is making a particular point. However much wisdom we think might be present in the later books (and if you ignore Maccabees, I'm willing to admit that there is some), they don't have the quality of direct inspiration of the Hebrew canon. They aren't prophetic speech, and they aren't accounts of the key events where God acted in Israel's history.

I think it's misleading, and possibly anti-Semtic, to set it up as an issue of Christian judgement vs Jewish judgement. The parts of the OT that most directly point to Christ are the prophets, who are in the Hebrew canon. It's pretty clear what actually happened: The early Christian Church used primarily the Greek OT, and they quite naturally ended up with the Greek canon. The Reformers, in obedience to the general Renaissance approach of "ad fontes" (for which they had ample motivation), felt safest using the Hebrew, and thus quite naturally ended up with the Hebrew canon. Nobody had any improper intentions.

I've never considered the exact canon a big issue. What we need are the instances of direct inspiration, which I think are the prophets and Jesus' teachings, and enough other things to understand how God worked with his people in the events that I would call the public revelation. Frankly, a few books more or less is probably not a big deal as long as we have a good picture of God's revelation.

 

[Montalban]

The Jewish Encyclopedia suggests that the criteria finally used was inspiration.They wanted books that were directly inspired by God, which they understood to mean written by a prophet. As you know, traditionally the historical books were all understood to have been written by a prophet, Moses for the first 5.

Naturally enough Christians don't think Jews had the full picture.

 

[Montalban]

Some points to keep in mind....


1. There has NEVER been an ecumenical council or decision on this - ever.

Doesn't answer my question. But thanks for the information

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Naturally enough Christians don't think Jews had the full picture.

I disagree. The Jews had everything revealed to them that God desired them to know. They all believed in the promise of a Messiah; some lacked in faith when Christ was incarnated, just as the Jews of today are still waiting for that incarnation. Many Gentiles also then as now, lack faith, and are unable to recognize Christ Jesus as Savior of Mankind. For the most part, it is now as it was then.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Naturally enough Christians don't think Jews had the full picture.

And let's be very clear: The "Jews" which determined this canon are not the Jews from whom salvation and the Oracles of God came. These are the Jews who rejected Christ and cursed the Christian sect- kicked us out of the synagogues and reported us as atheists to Roman authorities. They stoned Paul.

Not all Jews are Jews, according to Paul. Yes, they can be grafted back in, but through embracing Messiah- NOT by rejecting the witness of the Alexandrian Jews.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I disagree. The Jews had everything revealed to them that God desired them to know. They all believed in the promise of a Messiah; some lacked in faith when Christ was incarnated, just as the Jews of today are still waiting for that incarnation. Many Gentiles also then as now, lack faith, and are unable to recognize Christ Jesus as Savior of Mankind. For the most part, it is now as it was then.

Who do you think the "Jews" were?

 

[Montalban]

I disagree. The Jews had everything revealed to them that God desired them to know. They all believed in the promise of a Messiah; some lacked in faith when Christ was incarnated, just as the Jews of today are still waiting for that incarnation. Many Gentiles also then as now, lack faith, and are unable to recognize Christ Jesus as Savior of Mankind. For the most part, it is now as it was then.

However the 'canon' of the Jews was formalised AFTER Jesus.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Who do you think the "Jews" were?

As Scripture tells us; God's chosen people; chosen to bear the message of the coming Messiah; which they have done, as I believe, according to God's will.

I have a very simple view of this, in that it is what Scripture tells us.

The Song of Simeon (a faithful Jew) is the sum-total of the OT and NT wrapped up in just a few short words... "a Light to enlighten the Gentiles, and to glorify Your people Israel".

 

[Montalban]

And let's be very clear: The "Jews" which determined this canon are not the Jews from whom salvation and the Oracles of God came. These are the Jews who rejected Christ and cursed the Christian sect- kicked us out of the synagogues and reported us as atheists to Roman authorities. They stoned Paul.

Not all Jews are Jews, according to Paul. Yes, they can be grafted back in, but through embracing Messiah- NOT by rejecting the witness of the Alexandrian Jews.

That's my understanding; the Jews who's canon Protestants rely on rejected Jesus - that is, when they formulated their canon, it's after Jesus. Even the improbable Council of Jamnia which some Protestants believe existed happened in the Christian era.

 

[OpenDoor]

IIRC one of the reason the Apocrypha was removed from the Jewish canon is because their were no original copies found in Hebrew only Greek.
So from the Jewish perspective the Torah could not be in Greek since it was for the Jews.

Edit: From the Jewish perspective God was writing to His people (the Jews) in their language (Hebrew). From the Jewish perspective at the time of the OT the gentiles were not God's people.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

IIRC one of the reason the Apocrypha was removed from the Jewish canon is because their were no original copies found in Hebrew only Greek.
So from the Jewish perspective the Torah could not be in Greek since it was for the Jews.

That is my understanding also, however let's be mindful that the Jewish celebration of Chanukah is chronicled in Maccabees I believe.

So maybe not in their canon, but given a high level of esteem it appears.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

As Scripture tells us; God's chosen people; chosen to bear the message of the coming Messiah; which they have done, as I believe, according to God's will.

I have a very simple view of this, in that it is what Scripture tells us.

The Song of Simeon (a faithful Jew) is the sum-total of the OT and NT wrapped up in just a few short words... "a Light to enlighten the Gentiles, and to glorify Your people Israel".

Once agan: The Jews of which you spoke are the Apostles and the converts to the Way. Paul is clear that not all Israel is Israel. Gentiles are grafted into this.

Also according to Paul, the other branches were cast off. It is not the faithful Jews who formulated this Palestinian canon, but the faithless and the cast off, they who fomented hatred, stoned Stephen and Paul.

Yet you say these same Rabbinics are God's "chosen." So are the rocks of the field. They become His chosen by choosing Him.

You Christians of the Western persuasion continue to label these Rabbinic Jews as God's chosen. You even support them against your Palestinian/Arab Christian brothers.

Let's be very clear: God loves the Rabbinics- and they can be grafted back in- they HAVE NOT been replaced.

But they have been cast off- and some are looking to them for Light.
Really.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

IIRC one of the reason the Apocrypha was removed from the Jewish canon is because their were no original copies found in Hebrew only Greek.
So from the Jewish perspective the Torah could not be in Greek since it was for the Jews.

Edit: From the Jewish perspective God was writing to His people (the Jews) in their language (Hebrew). From the Jewish perspective at the time of the OT the gentiles were not God's people.

This is a fallacy. Much of the so-called apocrypha was written in Hebrew- and some of the so-called Torah was written in Chaldean.

Again, the canon of the Christian sect and the Hellenized Jews was rejected by Judean bigoted zealots who anathemized our Christian fathers and mothers- becuase we would not fight with them against Rome.

 

[OpenDoor]

That is my understanding also, however let's be mindful that the Jewish celebration of Chanukah is chronicled in Maccabees I believe.

So maybe not in their canon, but given a high level of esteem it appears.

A writing can be 100% historically accurate and not be scripture.
(although I guess it depends on what one believes the scripture is)

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Once agan: The Jews of which you spoke are the Apostles and the converts to the Way. Paul is clear that not all Israel is Israel. Gentiles are grafted into this.

Also according to Paul, the other branches were cast off. It is not the faithful Jews who formulated this Palestinian canon, but the faithless and the cast off, they who fomented hatred, stoned Stephen and Paul.

Yet you say these same Rabbinics are God's "chosen." So are the rocks of the field. They become His chosen by choosing Him.

You Christians of the Western persuasion continue to label these Rabbinic Jews as God's chosen. You even support them against your Palestinian/Arab Christian brothers.

Let's be very clear: God loves the Rabbinics- and they can be grafted back in- they HAVE NOT been replaced.

But they have been cast off- and some are looking to them for Light.
Really.

Regardless, if it were not for the Jews, we would not have these texts to argue about now. I stand by what I posted.

 

[OpenDoor]

This is a fallacy. Much of the so-called apocrypha was written in Hebrew- and some of the so-called Torah was written in Chaldean.

Again, the canon of the Christian sect and the Hellenized Jews was rejected by Judean bigoted zealots who anathemized our Christian fathers and mothers- becuase we would not fight with them against Rome.

Can you provided a link?
I think Jewish people still use this argument today...

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Regardless, if it were not for the Jews, we would not have these texts to argue about now. I stand by what I posted.

Yet if such were the case, why would they have based one of their theological practice on the account of miracles in these texts.

 

[mark46]

wiki has a fairly extensive set of references.
Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you questioning whether the Old Testament was written entirely in Hebrew? This clearly was not the case.

If you are discussing the OT books not in the Tanakh, then some these were very likely also written in Hebrew or Aramaic (same as the OT). See thwe wiki articles, but 1st Macabees was almost assuredly written in Hebrew. Tobit was found at Qumram. It was orginially written in Hebrew or Aramaic.

Can you provided a link?
I think Jewish people still use this argument today...

 

[OpenDoor]

wiki has a fairly extensive set of references.
Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you questioning whether the Old Testament was written entirely in Hebrew? This clearly was not the case.

If you are discussing the OT books not in the Tanakh, then some these were very likely also written in Hebrew or Aramaic (same as the OT). See thwe wiki articles, but 1st Macabees was almost assuredly written in Hebrew. Tobit was found at Qumram. It was orginially written in Hebrew or Aramaic.

I think Jewish people argue that they were not...