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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Violent Rhetoric in Politics

Fremdin

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I don't think it's fair to blame political rhetoric on the actions of a crazed loner. If anything I think it's suspect that people are using this tragedy as a smear campaign against their ideological opponents. And by suspect I mean cynical, opportunistic and disgusting.
 
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Fremdin

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Scripture talks about the tongue as a tiny spark that can ignite a forest fire. When you use phrases like "lock 'n' load" to stir up dissension, it's essentially sowing seeds of violence. If you look at Romans 1:29, you can see several of the fruits of evil that exist in politics: "Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip."

It doesn't matter your political viewpoints; if you can't express them in a godly way, then something is wrong in your spiritual walk.

I agree but I want to add if you can't express your political viewpoints in a peaceful way, then something is wrong with your walk as a human. Politics is about compromise, order and maintaining human dignity more than anything.
 
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MacFall

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I don't think it's fair to blame political rhetoric on the actions of a crazed loner. If anything I think it's suspect that people are using this tragedy as a smear campaign against their ideological opponents. And by suspect I mean cynical, opportunistic and disgusting.

It's funny that they'll point to aspects of a person's character that are generally considered "extreme", and then try to associate him with a mainstream political ideology. Like, all Republicans must be secret insurrectionary anarchists or something. (Though more personally pertinent to me is the insinuation that all anarchists must be insurrectionists.)
 
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RealDealNeverstop

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I don't think it's fair to blame political rhetoric on the actions of a crazed loner. If anything I think it's suspect that people are using this tragedy as a smear campaign against their ideological opponents. And by suspect I mean cynical, opportunistic and disgusting.

It's a cultural problem that transcends partisanship but it's not politicizing anything to highlight absurd rhetoric such as gun crosshairs placed on political opponents. It's also worth looking at how these crazed loners pop up with frequency. The day before Giffords shooting there was another crazed lone gunman in Omaha.

Take away the decorations and you'll see how these "crazy" people are simply mimicking our Nation as a whole. Why call them crazy when we send our military to do what they are doing?
 
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Fremdin

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It's a cultural problem that transcends partisanship but it's not politicizing anything to highlight absurd rhetoric such as gun crosshairs placed on political opponents. It's also worth looking at how these crazed loners pop up with frequency. The day before Giffords shooting there was another crazed lone gunman in Omaha.

Take away the decorations and you'll see how these "crazy" people are simply mimicking our Nation as a whole. Why call them crazy when we send our military to do what they are doing?

I'm saddened that you cannot tell the difference between service of country in war and a violent offender taking their own misplaced ideologies into their own hands.
 
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Luther073082

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First of all there is no evidence that this guy was inspired by any posts.

Secondly even if he was, you can't blame someone because they said something and some lunatic used it as a reason to go off and shoot someone. Ultimatly anything you say could be used as a reason to go kill someone.

Third by most reports I've read, this guy doesn't have an ideology other then the government is trying to control people's minds and that college is somehow unconstitutional.

He feared the government not because of anything he heard at a Tea Party Rally or anything he read off of Sarah Palin's twitter. He feared the government because he thought they where trying to mind control people.

He's out of his mind. Stop trying to use this to smear people.

Around the same time, Loughner's behavior also began to worry officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner began attending classes in 2005, the school said in a release. Between February and September, Loughner "had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions," the statement said. He was suspended in September after college police discovered a YouTube video in which Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot

Since when have you heard a Tea Partyer claim that a community college was illegal according to the constitution?

In a series of YouTube videos, a person identifying himself Jared Lee Loughner complains about government mind control, treasonous laws, illiterate dreamers and the U.S. currency.
"The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar," the person wrote in one of the videos, which contain only music and white text on a black background.
"No! I won't pay debt with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver. No, I won't trust in God."


In a biographical sketch on the site, Loughner writes that he attended Tucson-area schools and says his favorite books include Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf," Karl Marx's "Communist Manifesto," and Ken Kesey's "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," set in an insane asylum.

Yes because conservatives love reading the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO. Or should we blame Karl Marx and communists for this guy's actions?

Also pointing to the fact that this guy is completly out of his mind. . . Hitler hated communists. . . but this guy apparently liked both Hitler and communists.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_usa_shooting_suspect
 
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BRISH

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It's just sad all the way around. It really is. I don't know how there's energy to aruge over anything when the devastation both sides have caused...is soo overwhelming. It's sad.


Scripture talks about the tongue as a tiny spark that can ignite a forest fire. When you use phrases like "lock 'n' load" to stir up dissension, it's essentially sowing seeds of violence. If you look at Romans 1:29, you can see several of the fruits of evil that exist in politics: "Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip."


wow

excellent
 
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Im_A

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Okay, I think we all know what I'm talking about. A man entered a Safeway yesterday and shot a congresswoman point-blank in the head, killed 6 people including a federal judge and a 9-year-old girl, and then injured about a dozen more. The shooter, a 22-year-old white male, was said to be have been inspired and influenced by the vitriol coming from the recent political climate. Sarah Palin's reference on her website to the congresswoman as a "target" with crosshairs on her district has drawn ire in particular, as well as the Tea Party carrying guns to political rallies (Congresswoman Giffords' in particular) during the last election. Personally I think it was just some crazy who, under the "approved" climate of violence and anger, was allowed to further his fantasy to the point of tragedy.

When are we going to stop making these metaphors and symbolic actions so these things do not happen in the future??
Besides the obvious senselessness of this, the tragedy of this, the horrific event this was...I agree with you.

It is one thing to be opinionated. It is one thing to shout and point fingers at one another and call each other names. Then its another to use metaphors that both sides have been use ranging from guns, ranging from the accusations that have been given to Obama.

We've had extremism in this country for how long? So extremism is nothing new. It is interesting though how since the 2008 election though, things keep increasing. Then again, I wonder if one could argue the same thing with the McVeigh and other events.

Sure people will say that the rhetoric is for people who have the ability to not react violently, but I do think people forget, on purpose, the fact that we are not mere individuals speaking our opinion. Our technology makes opinions more accessible, more reachable. We are a part of a country which means we affect people with our rhetoric. Which means while we lust in our liberty for free speech we can actually inadvertently lead an insane man or woman with violent rhetoric to commit horrible crimes. Violent rhetoric doesn't come from reasonable people in my opinion.

We're passed the days of rebelling from the Crown. We have no where to migrate to. At least back in our nation's beginnings, we had a place to migrate because if there wasn't with our rebellion. With no where to go to, with so much rebellion and violent rhetoric, we will self-destruct in a matter time(a long time of course, not like 20 plus years from now). Then again, its the American blood for violence(but violence is in our instinct as well)...the revolt that we consider holy and a president who even shot a man for treason on the White House Lawn.

So what's the solution? Who the heck knows. To control that is something that I can't even find in myself to support. Yet, if this is the sign of the future with our nation, I'm not optimistic. I'm not optimistic when I see the Tea Partiers speak like they do with violent metaphors. I'm not optimistic when leftist extremists and anarchists go on their violent protests and try intimidation tactics with pathetic cliched costumes as they revolt against corruption, greed and McDonalds. There is no solution to me. Nothing fixes, nothing has fixed. We've had religion/faith in this country since the beginning and it didn't take away the probability for this to happen. We've had scientific thinking, modern thinking, what some define as 'rational' thinking in this country for a long time as well and it didn't take the probability away. One time of this happening is too much and this isn't the first time it has happened either.

I repeat the cliched knee-jerk reaction...time to calm down the rhetoric. It does actually make one more self-aware of the manner they say what they say, or at least it should and we are a sad species because we have to have such a travesty thing to happen to make us go, 'hmm'.

I will not blame though the rhetoric for what happened. There's only one person to blame and that is the 22 year old that chose to do this horrific act. The rhetoric that has been going on for awhile now is a related topic in my opinion but nothing able to actually pin point the blame. And now the media with their pointing fingers is just continuing the problem that they complain about. If there is so much negativity, dissent it will have an affect nationwide on the conscious of a nation.
 
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RealDealNeverstop

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I'm saddened that you cannot tell the difference between service of country in war and a violent offender taking their own misplaced ideologies into their own hands.

If Loughner did the same actions in uniform in iraq it would have been labeled as "Fog of war" or coateral damage.

He shot innocent people that never attaccked him.

How in the hell is that any different than sending our military to kill innocent people who never attacked us?
 
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Im_A

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If Loughner did the same actions in uniform in iraq it would have been labeled as "Fog of war" or coateral damage.

He shot innocent people that never attaccked him.

How in the hell is that any different than sending our military to kill innocent people who never attacked us?
Intent is the only thing different in your example.
I would also think it would depend on if it was a battle fight, or something comparable to what happened this weekend...a man approaches people and starts opening fire.
 
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Fremdin

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If Loughner did the same actions in uniform in iraq it would have been labeled as "Fog of war" or coateral damage.

He shot innocent people that never attaccked him.

How in the hell is that any different than sending our military to kill innocent people who never attacked us?

I can tell by the way you think that it would be futile to argue this point.
 
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Boondock_Saint

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Okay, I think we all know what I'm talking about. A man entered a Safeway yesterday and shot a congresswoman point-blank in the head, killed 6 people including a federal judge and a 9-year-old girl, and then injured about a dozen more. The shooter, a 22-year-old white male, was said to be have been inspired and influenced by the vitriol coming from the recent political climate. Sarah Palin's reference on her website to the congresswoman as a "target" with crosshairs on her district has drawn ire in particular, as well as the Tea Party carrying guns to political rallies (Congresswoman Giffords' in particular) during the last election. Personally I think it was just some crazy who, under the "approved" climate of violence and anger, was allowed to further his fantasy to the point of tragedy.

When are we going to stop making these metaphors and symbolic actions so these things do not happen in the future??

I like how you bring up Sarah Palin right away. But I suppose you look for any chance you can to Republican Bash. The Supreme Court ruled. Get over it.
 
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