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Abortion hypothetical

JimR-OCDS

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benedictaoo

yep, the baby and mom is pitted against one another and it makes for a weird moral dilemma.

No, the baby wasn't pitted against the mother, but the pregnancy was causing the condition of the mother to die if it was not terminated.

As some canon experts and moral ethicist said, they could've removed the placenta in order to help the mother, even though they would know that doing so, the baby would die. This would be an indirect abortion an thereby licit.

To me, this is a tap dance around dogma that ends up with the same end.
The mother lives the child dies.


Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Again I ask the question.

How many could sit there with the mother and watch her die, while knowing they could've saved her?

Its nice to intellectualise the dogma and how heroic you'd be in sacrificing yourself for the fetus, who would die anyway.

But, is this really being pro-life, letting both the mother and fetus die when you could save one?

Jim
 
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Davidnic

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benedictaoo



Well in the case we were talking about, we don't know what procedure was used to perform the abortion. For all we know, the mother was induced and she delivered the pre-viable fetus, which would've died in birth.

We do know that was not what happened because if that happened then it would not have been an abortion as long as they did what they could, no matter how futile, to save the fetus. So by the fact that the Bishop calls it a direct abortion means the procedure that was used went in and directly killed the child and removed him/her.



According to Church teaching, it wouldn't even be Baptised if its dead on delivery. So much for it being a person.

There is a blessing for that if the parents intended Baptism. We had it done with our son after the miscarriage. We even have a blessed Baptismal Candle for him. So, yeah the fetus is a person. The Church clearly teaches that.



You can not save an 11 week old fetus. In fact, you can't save a fetus younger than 21 weeks. Thats just the reality of medicine.

I know its an emotional issue for you, but there are realities in life that are difficult, and this is one of them.

Jim

But an ectopic when done in a manner that removes the diseased part of the tube, a salpingectomy, is licit even though the child has no chance of survival.

But in this case, the McBride one, the baby was directly killed as therapy. So that is the difference what happened in that case was a direct abortion because the baby was directly killed. In an ectopic you remove the tube and the child dies as a foreseen and unwanted but not intentional part of the procedure.

In the Mcbride case the baby was directly killed as the intention of the procedure to save the mother, if it was not so the Bishop would not be calling it an abortion.

So in one the diseased tube is removed to save the mother and the child dies, even thought we do not want it to be so.

In the other, the child is directly killed to save the mother, even though we would rather it be different.

Those are different moral acts. Neither fetus is viable, but in one we can try what we can to save him/her but in the other the fetus is directly killed, there is no attempt to save.
 
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fated

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This is exactly why that particular Catholic group or hospital had its Catholicity terminated by its bishop. They refused to recant under pressure of the bishop. It is not allowed to kill the baby, and as long as we believe it is OK, we will not find the proper, probably hormonal, medication to treat this condition, and thus, will simply kill more and more people through time by our sloth.
 
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Davidnic

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Again I ask the question.

How many could sit there with the mother and watch her die, while knowing they could've saved her?

Its nice to intellectualise the dogma and how heroic you'd be in sacrificing yourself for the fetus, who would die anyway.

But, is this really being pro-life, letting both the mother and fetus die when you could save one?

Jim

I would do what was necessary to save both, but I would not kill anyone innocent who was not an unjust aggressor to save anyone else.

Before we decided to have children my wife and I talked about this and if the situation occurred with us she would try to bring the child to viability no matter what the doctors said and try a delivery natural or by c-section (depending on what the situation was at the time).

But she said she would rather die in the attempt to bring the child to viability no matter what the doctors said.

So if this happened to us...yes, I would have to watch her die or we would have to kill our child.

We have decided what we will do if this ever happened.

What if the doctors were wrong and this child could have lasted 11-15 more weeks with the mom under constant care? We don't know the case but doctors can be wrong, and we don't kill on guesswork no matter how educated it is.
 
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benedictaoo

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Again I ask the question.

How many could sit there with the mother and watch her die, while knowing they could've saved her?

Its nice to intellectualise the dogma and how heroic you'd be in sacrificing yourself for the fetus, who would die anyway.

But, is this really being pro-life, letting both the mother and fetus die when you could save one?

Jim

No one said to do that Jim, but go as far as you can, deliver the baby- try to save it and at the least- respect that it's a life who is dying too.

I find it mind boggling that you can not grasp this.

I can only ask you, do you not feel that the baby is also a victim and also a life?

Do you feel it's lesser then a life too?

You keep giving excuses why she could not have tried to deliver the baby keeping it's dignity as her own child. I'm not understanding why you would defend abortion in this way. Do you KNOW how a baby is "removed" in a D&C abortion?

She can't undergo a delivery... Oh but she can undergo an abortion?? Really Jim? How is that any less traumatic and stressing? An abortion procedure is not a walk in the park either Jim.
 
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Davidnic

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benedictaoo



No, the baby wasn't pitted against the mother, but the pregnancy was causing the condition of the mother to die if it was not terminated.

As some canon experts and moral ethicist said, they could've removed the placenta in order to help the mother, even though they would know that doing so, the baby would die. This would be an indirect abortion an thereby licit.

To me, this is a tap dance around dogma that ends up with the same end.
The mother lives the child dies.


Jim

But it is a different act and it is not a tap dance.

If two people are in a burning car and one is badly hurt to the point of death and they are blocking the way to the second. I also believe that removing the hurt person will kill them because I see the injuries and have some medical knowledge and can reason an outcome.

Morally I remove the first and then extract the second trying to save both. Even though I have a gun and I could shoot the first and move them out of the way. If I do that I will get to the second more quickly and they have a better chance of survival. The second is still not a moral option.

So there is a difference and it is not superficial or a tap dance. They are fully different acts.
 
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benedictaoo

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benedictaoo



No, the baby wasn't pitted against the mother, but the pregnancy was causing the condition of the mother to die if it was not terminated.

As some canon experts and moral ethicist said, they could've removed the placenta in order to help the mother, even though they would know that doing so, the baby would die. This would be an indirect abortion an thereby licit.

To me, this is a tap dance around dogma that ends up with the same end.
The mother lives the child dies.


Jim
To me, the way you phrase it and the language you choose to use, like the baby was not pitted, but the pregnancy was... and to termite it.

Dude, that was a BABY! It was a real human person-- her own child! and you want to terminate it? You impersonalize it and trivialize it and that is what I find very disturbing.
 
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benedictaoo

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You know, Davidnic, you are a powerful witness in all this, because you were left with out your mother due to her illness. You are living proof, it's not the end of the world. It's sad and I wish no one to ever go through that but life does go on for the children and so much comes from that.

People just do not want to look to the future. If your mother had not choose your life over hers, that beautiful baby in the pictures would not be here.
 
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benedictaoo

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This is exactly why that particular Catholic group or hospital had its Catholicity terminated by its bishop. They refused to recant under pressure of the bishop. It is not allowed to kill the baby, and as long as we believe it is OK, we will not find the proper, probably hormonal, medication to treat this condition, and thus, will simply kill more and more people through time by our sloth.

:amen:
 
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Davidnic

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You know, Davidnic, you are a powerful witness in all this, because you were left with out your mother due to her illness. You are living proof, it's not the end of the world. It's sad and I wish no one to ever go through that but life does go on for the children and so much comes from that.

People just do not want to look to the future. If your mother had not choose your life over hers, that beautiful baby in the pictures would not be here.

There is another dimension to it. My grandmother had my mom in 1932. In 1936 she was giving birth to her second child. The doctor came out to my grandfather and said: "You have five minutes, do I save the mother or your daughter."

He said to save the mother. My grandmother never blamed him. She was never angry. But she told me when I was a young man that she felt her entire life was Bonnies time. That she had taken her daughters life and lived it as her own. And she cried about it every night when no one was watching.

Now, without my grandmother I know my life would have been so very bad after mom died. So I see where God brought good from bad. But I know He would have done that no matter what.

I saw what happens when this decision is made either way. My grandmother never thought it was worth it and she wished every night my grandfather had made the other decision. Like I said, she held no ill will and loved him so very much...but she felt like she had stolen her child's life. And Pop felt like he killed his daughter.

And in that case at that time there was no way to save both.

One of the strangest moments of my life was in mom's last days and she was delirious with pain medication. There were days she made no sense. The last day she saw gram she looked at her and said: "Bonnie says she loves you."

I don't judge people but we can never forget that fetus is a person with the same dignity as a grown adult, a toddler or a senior citizen. They have a soul and are a person.

My whole life I know that before she knew my name or saw my face my mother would die for me. That she would choose to suffer for so long or die right there if it bought me a moment. She loved and loves me on a level of who I am sight unseen. The doctors were wrong and she did not die in giving birth, but the condition did cause suffering for a decade and her death. But she loved us every moment she had.

How then, in all my life, can I doubt the love of God or the love of Christ in His sacrifice?

Death sucks big time. But life goes on and we carry those we have lost with us. I can only remember moms voice when I sing three things she used to sing to us. I hear her in my head, like we hear ourselves when we sing normally. It's weird. Two of those songs are "Away in a Manger" and "O Little Town of Bethlehem" (third being Immaculate Mary) and I have sung them over and over for the past month to my daughter. And in them her grandmother is singing to her and to me all over again.

Life goes on and we carry them with us.
 
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Davidnic

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:cry: can your family story get anymore touching and moving an inspiring? You always bring me to tears.

Well that is because I do not talk about the crazy aspects of it. :)

We have actually had some comical funerals. Like a dwarf chasing a hearse and such (seriously).

My sister and I watched death at a funeral and only halfway through it did it start to have things happen that we had not seen before.

As far as inspiring; my gram and mom were two amazing people. So were dad and pop. But really mom and gram stand out across the board. Even my great grandmother on that side was amazing. She had money, for the time, after her husband died on the railroad when gram was 3. And she found out that some children in the town could not afford good clothes for their confirmation. She bought them clothes because she said everyone deserves dignity. And on a day like confirmation you should hold your head high and know your worth and it would help you know it forever.

I think the women in my family just kind of rock. In many ways they have been my models of strength and together with St. Joseph have guided the formation of my personality. Don't get me wrong. Dad was a good man, despite some problems. And I never saw a man love his daughter like my pop. They all live on in my heart, and more importantly with the Lord. But gram and mom stand out for a few reasons.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Davidnic

If two people are in a burning car and one is badly hurt to the point of death and they are blocking the way to the second. I also believe that removing the hurt person will kill them because I see the injuries and have some medical knowledge and can reason an outcome.

Morally I remove the first and then extract the second trying to save both. Even though I have a gun and I could shoot the first and move them out of the way. If I do that I will get to the second more quickly and they have a better chance of survival. The second is still not a moral option.


I saw a similar analogy presented by a Theologian in the Catholic Free Press.

The flaw however, is that the second person's life isn't dependent on the first person living, but getting out of the way. Yes, you could not shoot the person with a gun in order to move them, but must try to save both.

The fetus however is in a different position. It can not survive without the mother. The mother dies, it dies, no two ways about it. If the pregnancy is killing the mother and there is no way to save both, the only option is to save the mother.

The problem here is also equating fully developed adults as equal to a non-viable fetus. The Church isn't even certain that the fetus has a soul, whereas the adult does.


So there is a difference and it is not superficial or a tap dance. They are fully different acts.

When you know the end result is the same, and you're merely going around the situation in order to satisfy the dogma, it is a tap dance.

In the case of the mother, you know that if you remove the placenta, it will kill the fetus, however, you're not directly attacking the fetus.

It doesn't matter, if what you are doing is going to cause the death of the fetus, its the same as doing the abortion in the first place.

Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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To me, the way you phrase it and the language you choose to use, like the baby was not pitted, but the pregnancy was... and to termite it.

Dude, that was a BABY! It was a real human person-- her own child! and you want to terminate it? You impersonalize it and trivialize it and that is what I find very disturbing.

Actually, I am personalizing it, I'm looking at the two lives not just one, and the fact that only the mother could be saved. You demand the doctors let her die, so who's lacking compasion here?

The doctors didn't want to terminate the pregnancy, but there was no other option left in order to save the mother's life.

You would've preferred that they let the mother die?

That's being pro-life?

Imagine if the doctors did allow the mother to die at St. Joseph's hospital in Arizona? That place would be something other than a hospital by now and they'd be serving time in jail.

Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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You know, Davidnic, you are a powerful witness in all this, because you were left with out your mother due to her illness. You are living proof, it's not the end of the world. It's sad and I wish no one to ever go through that but life does go on for the children and so much comes from that.

People just do not want to look to the future. If your mother had not choose your life over hers, that beautiful baby in the pictures would not be here.

The difference is that David was able to live, despite the illness his mother had.

In the case being debated here, the mother was going to die if nothing was done, so the fetus would die with her.

OH and BTW, my wife gave birth to a baby in her 27th week of pregnancy, we went through the agony of a pregnancy gone wrong.

However, my son was viable, they were able to deliver him by C-section. That's the difference.

Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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(gasp) oh snap... you do believe the baby's life is less... wow.


An 11 week old fetus that has no chance of living if its mother dies?

Yes, I value the mother's life over the fetus at that point in time.

Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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:swoon: :eek:


You can't be serious... what is it, an alien? No, you tell me exactly what it is if it is not a human person?


If its a human person, then why doesn't the Church baptise all babies miscarried in hospitals?

Hmmm?

Jim
 
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