Who did away with the law?

[JohnRabbit]

Then Moses lied in Ex 33:20 and is not trustworthy. By your idea Moses is a proven liar.

I think your problem is the way you see the trinity and understand pronouns.

bugkiller

can you explain how ex 33:20 makes moses a liar by the idea you disagree with.

 

[bugkiller]

i use God because that is who He was known by then.

you are amazing!

example:

Exodus 6:2-3 ( NKJV ) 2And God spoke to Moses and said to him: “I am the Lord. 3I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name Lord I was not known to them.

the word "Lord" in this verse is from the hebrew "YHWH", which was translated as "I AM" in ex. 3:14.

so, you see? the patriarchs called by what He was known as then too.

i think that the problem you point out in your post is just all in your head.

Think all and what you want. That is your privilage. If Jesus is the entity that Moses talked to then he and God (the Father) are both liars (Ex 33:20).

I think you are incorrect about the words I AM being translated from. My resources show hayah which means to exist ie to be or become. The I AM in "I AM hath sent' phrase part of the verse is supplied and not in the Hebrew. The word Lord does not appear in the KJV, NKJV, NIV, ESV, ASV, HCSB or Darby. I don't know where you are getting your information from. It sure doesn't agree with anything I can locate. The word that does appear in 3:14 is God and the word is elohyim. The word Lord in reference to God is most commonly Yehovah. Another word for Lord in reference to God is Adonay. It does not appear in 3:14 either.

Now for the word 'Lord' from Ex 6:2-3. It is Yehovah which means self Existant or Eternal.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

i've already been over all of that you got posted above.

interesting thing about that old covenant, the only thing the apostles had to go on was the law and the prophets.

Then according to you God no longer spoke or conveyed information to mankind. So much for EGW claim. Your statement is one of dismissal and unbelief.

bugkiller

 

[JohnRabbit]

They relied on the testimony Moses provided them, found in Deuteronomy 4:

9 Only take heed to yourself, and diligently keep yourself, lest you forget the things your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life. And teach them to your children and your grandchildren, 10 especially concerning the day you stood before the LORD your God in Horeb, when the LORD said to me, ‘Gather the people to Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.’
11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.
​

This is a recital of the events recorded in Exodus 20-24, when the ten commandments was conveyed to the children of Israel. Following this testimony in Deuteronomy 4, Moses then states the same covenant in the following chapter, Deuteronomy 5:

1 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. 4 The LORD talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire. 5 I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up the mountain. He said:
6 ‘I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.
8 ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
11 ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
12 ‘ Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
16 ‘ Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
17 ‘You shall not murder.
18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.
19 ‘You shall not steal.
20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’
22 “These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.
​

In case you're having difficulty recognizing the covenant Moses documented in this chapter, that is the ten commandments. That was the only covenant that originated from Mount Sinai, as Moses taught the book of the law at Horeb. This singularity of origin is what Galatians 4:24 refers to when it introduces the allegory of the bondwoman with these words:

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar...
​

The ten commandments was the first covenant, the only covenant from Mount Sinai. It isn't possible for you to feign ignorance considering how many times this has been shown to you.

i understand that the ten commandments are a spiritual law.

it was part of the covenant with the COI.

i also use the definition of the word covenant and understand that the covenant is a marriage relationship.

i also use logic when reading the scriptures.

putting everything i've read about the covenant, i understand that the laws were tenets of the agreement.

it is don't make sense to me, for God to give us a spiritual law that He Himself wrote and then kick it to the curb, because the principles of the ten commandments convey love toward God and love toward neighbor.

so, i don't think that has been abolished and never will.

now, if you have a hard time with how i veiw the covenant based how i read the bible, then i hate it for you.

 

[bugkiller]

We should take a look at the context your problem verse appears in John 8.

52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
​

Jesus claimed to be present before Abraham, and this passage tells of the timeless existence of the pre-incarnate Jesus. When He claimed the proper title of I AM to identify Himself as the One Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, those in attendance understood what He meant - and picked up stones in response to His apparent blasphemy. When Hebrews 10:5 states of Jesus "when He came into the world, He said ... a body You have prepared for Me", it affirms there was Someone present prior to filling that body.

The 1982 NKJV is one of the most trustworthy translations I have come to know. That's why I use it nearly exclusively in the quotes I provide.

We have an impass here. I hate very much to disagree with you. We are on the same team. I understand your position. I am also not saying this just to maintain my position. The wording is not I am in the sense or way that Ex 3:14 uses I AM. The context clearly states that Jesus is and was in existence before Abraham. Jesus is clearly claiming to be God, but not God the Father. A careful examiniation of Scripture will show that Moses never spoke to Jesus in the Torah. If you think you can prove that I am very interested.

bugkiller

 

[squint]

We have an impass here. I hate very much to disagree with you. We are on the same team. I understand your position. I am also not saying this just to maintain my position. The wording is not I am in the sense or way that Ex 3:14 uses I AM. The context clearly states that Jesus is and was in existence before Abraham. Jesus is clearly claiming to be God, but not God the Father. A careful examiniation of Scripture will show that Moses never spoke to Jesus in the Torah. If you think you can prove that I am very interested.

bugkiller

Really bug you have both feet in heresy on this matter. Seriously.

 

[Chickapee]

the Thing is simple but hard to see at times , but
the unclean spirit or spirits working in mankind have to go, in Jesus name
thats why you must be born again of the Lords Spirit , this is the holy thing in you that must grow in Truth and grace
and the unclean must die
Paul said I die daily ... the Change in the Law and change in the priesthood , the law being weak though the flesh was not perfect ,

and when the perfect come / Jesus Christ all things are new , we do become new creatures in Christ ,

this creature is the holy thing / saint that is set apart for Gods use and purpose ,

furthering the Truth and gospel , making more abound though Him alive and remain .

no more death being the last enemy ... and who has the power over death , the devil ,

so the Victory is in Christ the End

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,

even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him,

it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?

why are they then baptized for the dead?
30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

 

[bugkiller]

can you explain how ex 33:20 makes moses a liar by the idea you disagree with.

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

What is there that need explaining about? Moses says that God said you can not see me. That is not permissable. Moses did not see Who He spoke to. There is nowhere that you can show that Moses spoke to two different personalities. Take Gen 3:15 for instance. Who is speaking about Who? The wording is such that it has to be two different entities. Take creation where God said Let Us create man. Who is speaking? Jesus - NO WAY. God the Father gets full credit for creation very clearly in Revelation 4 - 5.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Really bug you have both feet in heresy on this matter. Seriously.

Your opinion has been duly noted. We each have a right to disagree. I believe that the matter before us was presented as proof that Jesus issued the ten commandments to be a foundation that there is no new covenant and we are indeed Israel which I do not buy either. This is an effort to obligate us to the law and the sabbath which according to Paul invalidates the work of Christ making God a fool. You can not serve both the law and Christ it is either or Gal 5:4. This is a personal matter between you and God. You can keep the law as an obligation (for justification) if you like. This means that you are righteous if you keep the law (without violation of course). The Christian's righteousness does not come by the law. It comes by faith and is the righteousness of God (Jesus) that is above that of the scribes and pharisees. You can not throw out the law and be subject to it.

bugkiller

 

[squint]

Your opinion has been duly noted. We each have a right to disagree. I believe that the matter before us was presented as proof that Jesus issued the ten commandments to be a foundation that there is no new covenant and we are indeed Israel which I do not buy either.

I have no idea how you got those. The basic trinitarian observation is that one cannot DIVIDE or SEPARATE any member of the trinity from another without committing a violation.

This is an effort to obligate us to the law and the sabbath which according to Paul invalidates the work of Christ making God a fool. You can not serve both the law and Christ it is either or Gal 5:4. This is a personal matter between you and God. You can keep the law as an obligation (for justification) if you like. This means that you are righteous if you keep the law (without violation of course). The Christian's righteousness does not come by the law. It comes by faith and is the righteousness of God (Jesus) that is above that of the scribes and pharisees. You can not throw out the law and be subject to it.

bugkiller

Really bug, I have exactly no idea where your statements are coming from because I have made no such case. You appear to have taken a whole bunch of legalistic positions and tried to stick them in my mouth for making a simple observation that you cannot DIVIDE JESUS CHRIST from GODS WORDS or ACTIONS OF THE O.T.

s

 

[bugkiller]

I have no idea how you got those. The basic trinitarian observation is that one cannot DIVIDE or SEPARATE any member of the trinity from another without committing a violation.



Really bug, I have exactly no idea where your statements are coming from because I have made no such case. You appear to have taken a whole bunch of legalistic positions and tried to stick them in my mouth for making a simple observation that you cannot DIVIDE JESUS CHRIST from GODS WORDS or ACTIONS OF THE O.T.

s

I sorry that you think I am trying to put words in your mouth. I stated my reason for making a defense. I did not tell you what you believe. I showed a reason for the statements on the I AM issue and the results or ramifications of such statements.

bugkiller

 

[VictorC]

i understand that the ten commandments are a spiritual law.

The entire law had spiritual roots, and imposing an artificial division to set the ten commandments apart from the rest of the law causes you to deny what the ten commandments was.

it was part of the covenant with the COI.

The ten commandments was the only covenant from Mount Sinai.

i also use the definition of the word covenant and understand that the covenant is a marriage relationship.

Imposing a false definition from an English dictionary that doesn't define a Suzerainty covenant causes you to misunderstand what the ten commandments was. A sovereign dictates his terms of ownership to the vassal that he rescues or defends, and compliance on the part of the vassal is requisite for the sovereign's continued ownership and defense. God is that Sovereign, and the children of Israel were that vassal He rescued from Egyptian bondage.

i also use logic when reading the scriptures.

Your "logic" is forcing a preclusion on what the Scriptures mean, rather than allowing the author to convey his own meaning.

putting everything i've read about the covenant, i understand that the laws were tenets of the agreement.

The law in this case is the content of the covenant dictated to the vassal, that the Sovereign demands compliance to as a condition to live and possess the promised land.

it is don't make sense to me, for God to give us a spiritual law that He Himself wrote and then kick it to the curb, because the principles of the ten commandments convey love toward God and love toward neighbor.

You still haven't explained to me how slaughtering lambs conveys love. In case you haven't noticed, the Sinai covenant contains an ordinance demanding that Israel keep the sabbath holy - and that ordinance was ceremonial as well as prophetic in nature. It reminded Israel of God's rest that Hebrews 4:1 reminds the reader was a promise yet to be attained. The sabbath didn't provide God's rest, but was a shadow that was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

so, i don't think that has been abolished and never will.

We aren't interested in what you think, when you have determined to conclude something completely contrary to the narratives describing the Gospel.

now, if you have a hard time with how i veiw the covenant based how i read the bible, then i hate it for you.

You hate the Bible?
I hope that isn't your goal, and you just had a hard time composing this sentence.

 

[VictorC]

We have an impass here. I hate very much to disagree with you. We are on the same team. I understand your position. I am also not saying this just to maintain my position. The wording is not I am in the sense or way that Ex 3:14 uses I AM. The context clearly states that Jesus is and was in existence before Abraham. Jesus is clearly claiming to be God, but not God the Father. A careful examiniation of Scripture will show that Moses never spoke to Jesus in the Torah. If you think you can prove that I am very interested.

bugkiller

Where did you get the idea that it was God the Father Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush?

The Voice said "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Exodus 3:6). Jesus stated in John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad". Jesus is the God of Abraham, and those fellows picking up rocks to stone Jesus understood what He was telling them. The conclusion reached by those within His own cultural backdrop was accurate.

I am very comfortable with Jesus issuing the covenant from Mount Sinai. With Him creating the law, He has natural ownership rights over it, He is sovereign to His created law (See the lesson to Peter in Matthew 17:24-26), and He alone has the natural right to take away the covenant He created in the first place, as Hebrews 10:9 says He did.

 

[bugkiller]

Where did you get the idea that it was God the Father Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush?

The Voice said "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Exodus 3:6). Jesus stated in John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad". Jesus is the God of Abraham, and those fellows picking up rocks to stone Jesus understood what He was telling them. The conclusion reached by those within His own cultural backdrop was accurate.

I am very comfortable with Jesus issuing the covenant from Mount Sinai. With Him creating the law, He has natural ownership rights over it, He is sovereign to His created law (See the lesson to Peter in Matthew 17:24-26), and He alone has the natural right to take away the covenant He created in the first place, as Hebrews 10:9 says He did.

If one follows the word Lord or God from Genesis I think it speaks very clearly of God the Father. My favorite go to verse is Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. The speaker is not the Seed that we recognize as Jesus Christ. The word identifying the Speaker is God. This does not change anywhere in the Torah that I can find. Perhaps you can show where this occurs. I am interested. It is not the woman who will bruise satan's head. Therefore it can not be the Seed Who is speaking? So if it is not Jesus speaking, Who is it? The speaker is clearly identified as God.

The scripture states that God appeared to Abraham. This does not mean that Abraham saw God. And God appeared in the burning bush to Moses. Is the burning bush, God? Did Moses see God? No. If that is so then explain Ex 33:20. Is something fishy? Is Moses lying? I don't think so. If that be the case then the whole thing is fiction. Perhaps you can show that the translators are clearly wrong. Everything seems very consistant to me. Is it that the law pusher need a human body to have a finger of God? Must be. God is a spirit and not a corporeal being.

bugkiller

 

[VictorC]

If one follows the word Lord or God from Genesis I think it speaks very clearly of God the Father. My favorite go to verse is Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. The speaker is not the Seed that we recognize as Jesus Christ. The word identifying the Speaker is God. This does not change anywhere in the Torah that I can find. Perhaps you can show where this occurs. I am interested. It is not the woman who will bruise satan's head. Therefore it can not be the Seed Who is speaking? So if it is not Jesus speaking, Who is it? The speaker is clearly identified as God.

Jesus is God, and referring to Abraham's Seed in the second person doesn't change Who He is.

The scripture states that God appeared to Abraham. This does not mean that Abraham saw God. And God appeared in the burning bush to Moses. Is the burning bush, God? Did Moses see God? No. If that is so then explain Ex 33:20. Is something fishy? Is Moses lying? I don't think so. If that be the case then the whole thing is fiction. Perhaps you can show that the translators are clearly wrong. Everything seems very consistant to me. Is it that the law pusher need a human body to have a finger of God? Must be. God is a spirit and not a corporeal being.

Now if the finger of God wrote the covenant onto tablets of stone, Who did that finger belong to? Moses did indeed see God as God hid Himself, Moses saw the light in the burning bush, Moses saw as much as He needed to except for the face of God: "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live" (Exodus 33:20). When you go through Exodus 34 when Moses received the second issue of the tablets of stone, Moses wore a veil to conceal his face after the experience. What Moses did see was enough to make him glow in the dark, for all we know - I would have liked to hear his wife's comments about that experience! Revelation 1:16 offers a view of Jesus in a more contemporary setting: "His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength".

You're actually painting yourself in a corner. No one other than the issuer of the covenant from Mount Sinai has the natural right to replace it: "He takes away the first that He may establish the second".

We also have these comments from Paul, who recognized Who it was Who led Israel out of Egyptian bondage (1 Corinthians 10):

1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.​

 

[Frogster]

i see you're going into circle mode.

Naaaaa.. first you say the 10 were not on the book of the law, and the cov, so I posted out of the OT to show you that u are incorrect. So this accusation is a diversion. NO?

Now I ask you in this post again..

Did Christ redeem us from the whole curse, or just some, because it says it was in the book of the law? How could the 10 not be in the book too, as per my other red highlightes post?


Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” [4] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

 

[Frogster]

Really bug you have both feet in heresy on this matter. Seriously.

Cheap shot.

 

[Frogster]

Rabbit..please advise, you said the 10 were noyt in the book of the cov.


Read through Exodus, and watch the unfolding, and you tell me why the 10 were not written in the book? And it says the BLOOD OF THE COV TOO.

Ex 24:3 Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the rules. [1] And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do.” 4 And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. He rose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. 6 And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.”


More from Hebrews 9



18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.”

 

[Frogster]

Rabbit..same book ov cov here, are we redeemed from the 10, which means they were in the book too?

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

 

[Frogster]

the Thing is simple but hard to see at times , but
the unclean spirit or spirits working in mankind have to go, in Jesus name
thats why you must be born again of the Lords Spirit , this is the holy thing in you that must grow in Truth and grace
and the unclean must die
Paul said I die daily ... the Change in the Law and change in the priesthood , the law being weak though the flesh was not perfect ,

and when the perfect come / Jesus Christ all things are new , we do become new creatures in Christ ,

this creature is the holy thing / saint that is set apart for Gods use and purpose ,

furthering the Truth and gospel , making more abound though Him alive and remain .

no more death being the last enemy ... and who has the power over death , the devil ,

so the Victory is in Christ the End

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,

even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him,

it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?

why are they then baptized for the dead?
30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Exactly, God delt with the old man, it is just because people under law, wake up that sleeping dog.

Paul was alive, then the commandment came and he died...