• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Who did away with the law?

Status
Not open for further replies.

winslow

Regular Member
Dec 25, 2005
691
40
✟16,003.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Being as at last someone has addressed the question I originally posted with a valid answer i will no longer moniter this thread. It was not my intent to engage in another debate over the law or the sabbath in general, but to distinguish when the change in focus of the church as to when they abandoned the teaching of the ten commandment moral code as a valid code of conduct for the christian.
There were many posts I didn't respond to because quite frankly they had nothing to do with the question I asked. I'm sure those were acting sincerly with their arguments against the law but that was not the intent of the OP. There are enough of those threads out there already.
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
I can appreaciate both Barnes and Clarke.

Romans 6:14
Barnes:
For sin ... - The propensity or inclination to sin.
Shall not have dominion - Shall not reign, Rom_5:12; Rom_6:6. This implies that sin ought not to have this dominion; and it also expresses the conviction of the apostle that it would not have this rule over Christians.
For we are not under law - We who are Christians are not subject to that law where sin is excited, and where it rages unsubdued. But it may be asked here, What is meant by this declaration? Does it mean that Christians are absolved from all the obligations of the law? I answer,

Regarding Matthew 5:19 your argument that it was reffering to only applicable to before the cross is unfounded and lacks any scriptural endorsement. The New testament is not part of the Old testament, that is a view you seem to have invented to validate your views. I understand that you have some word definition problems. Nothing wrong with that. I have highlighted some words in blue to discuss.

dominion: Supreme authority or control.

Delivered as found in Romans 7:6: But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Your quote from Barnes says shall not reign does not support your idea at all. I am keying in on the word reign.

delivered: To set free: Liberate from the dictionary. The greek word katargeo means to render entirely idle (useless) literally or figuratively

In light of the above I wish to know how the Apostle Paul indicates we are bound to any of the law? This is without even discussing Galatians. Truely I must not understand English or this is some unwritten code. I need to be shown that this is so.
(1) The apostle does not affirm that Christians are not bound to obey the moral law. The whole scope of his reasoning shows that he maintains that they are. The whole structure of Christianity supposes the same thing; compare Mat_5:17-19.
I take your quote to mean that we are obligated to the law. This does not square with scripture. so what does the apostle affirm we are bound to? I read not bound to the moral law (ten commandments as you promote). I am not saying that we can sin and should not have good morals. Paul does not each that. Gal 5:13, 16-21 afirms that and is not a reference to the law (of Moses or the ten commandments). You should focus in on v 18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Under here clearly denotes and implies being subject to. It is impossible for Paul to mean we are obligated to the law when he clearly tells us to throw out the law in Gal 4:30.

Under the next point (2) we have the commentator saying they do not attempt to be justified by their own obedience. I don't know what think he is saying, but I think you mean exactly the opposite of the statement considering that yo are trying to defend our obligation to the law specifically the ten commandments.

In reference to Clarke's discussion under Ye are not under the law the best thing for me to do is provide this: Romans 7:15-25 calling focus to these highlighted verses:
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

But under grace - Ye are under the merciful and beneficent dispensation of the Gospel, that, although it requires the strictest conformity to the will of God, affords sufficient power to be thus conformed;
This does not infer that we are obligated to or have the ability to comply with the law (of Moses including the ten commandments). If Clarke is saying that we have power to be conformed to the law, where is the evidence? Name anyone who has dones so. Proof is in the eatin of the puddin. As you imply this to be the above is a false statement.



bugkiller
927154.gif
 
Upvote 0

VictorC

Jesus - that's my final answer
Mar 25, 2008
5,228
479
Northern Colorado
✟29,537.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Being as at last someone has addressed the question I originally posted with a valid answer i will no longer moniter this thread. It was not my intent to engage in another debate over the law or the sabbath in general, but to distinguish when the change in focus of the church as to when they abandoned the teaching of the ten commandment moral code as a valid code of conduct for the christian.
You have failed to cite the origin for the unBiblical notion you insist on, that relegates the covenant from Mount Sinai to a mere moral law. When did that happen? Why do you disdain a move away from manmade tradition and returning to the Bible for our doctrines? Is a devotion to manmade tradition related to your reliance on commentary instead of Scripture?
There were many posts I didn't respond to because quite frankly they had nothing to do with the question I asked. I'm sure those were acting sincerly with their arguments against the law but that was not the intent of the OP. There are enough of those threads out there already.
It was you who built a whole case on one verse divorced from its context, Romans 3:31. The only one who has abandoned the premise introduced in your OP is...
...YOU!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Feb 22, 2010
355
37
✟23,672.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree 100%. Was there ever a time when salvation didn't come by faith?

Salvation is by Grace

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD

Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Jdg 6:16 And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.
Jdg 6:17 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
The old sinful nature has died, been crucified with Christ.

Did u ever notice Paul talked of life in the fleah, as life under law?

Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.


Phil 3

Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God [2] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
 
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
Being as at last someone has addressed the question I originally posted with a valid answer i will no longer moniter this thread. It was not my intent to engage in another debate over the law or the sabbath in general, but to distinguish when the change in focus of the church as to when they abandoned the teaching of the ten commandment moral code as a valid code of conduct for the christian.
There were many posts I didn't respond to because quite frankly they had nothing to do with the question I asked. I'm sure those were acting sincerly with their arguments against the law but that was not the intent of the OP. There are enough of those threads out there already.

Paul pointed to the Spir in Gal 5, and when they tried to follow Moses, they were rubuked. Toodles.:wave:
 
Upvote 0

JohnRabbit

just trying to understand
Site Supporter
Feb 12, 2009
4,383
320
i am in alabama
✟100,288.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I would love for you to show us exactly how each of the ten commandments were enforce in the garden.

bugkiller
927154.gif


since sin is the transgression of the law, the ten commandments, let's see...

disobeying God and listening to Satan... which commandment was that one, oh yeah:

Exodus 20:3 ( NKJV ) 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

mmm, was there another one, mmm,... oh yeah:

Exodus 20:12 ( NKJV ) 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

dishonor to parents, remember,

Luke 3:38 ( NKJV ) 38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

let's see is there anything else, mmm,.... oh yeah:

Exodus 20:15 ( NKJV ) 15 “You shall not steal.

taking something that don't belong to you without permission.

i just hope you're loving it! ;)
 
Upvote 0

Frogster

Galatians is the best!
Sep 7, 2009
44,343
3,067
✟81,817.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
since sin is the transgression of the law, the ten commandments, let's see...

disobeying God and listening to Satan... which commandment was that one, oh yeah:

Exodus 20:3 ( NKJV ) 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

mmm, was there another one, mmm,... oh yeah:

Exodus 20:12 ( NKJV ) 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

dishonor to parents, remember,

Luke 3:38 ( NKJV ) 38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

let's see is there anything else, mmm,.... oh yeah:

Exodus 20:15 ( NKJV ) 15 “You shall not steal.

taking something that don't belong to you without permission.

i just hope you're loving it! ;)

Aren't you really just talkng about elementalism?

Isn't our Christianity about more than that?

In other words, isn't life in Christ about realtionship with him, or following rules?

Paul called law life as a child in gal 3 and 4.
 
Upvote 0

VictorC

Jesus - that's my final answer
Mar 25, 2008
5,228
479
Northern Colorado
✟29,537.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I would love for you to show us exactly how each of the ten commandments were enforce in the garden.
since sin is the transgression of the law, the ten commandments, let's see...
Which didn't exist for thousands of years, and your limited definition doesn't account for sin existing prior to the law (Romans 5:13), and you dismissed the book of the law, which conveys a curse for any and all infractions (Galatians 3:10).
disobeying God and listening to Satan... which commandment was that one, oh yeah:

Exodus 20:3 ( NKJV ) 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
Hmmm. Adam never transgressed this, and his only recorded transgression was eating of the forbidden fruit of a certain tree.
mmm, was there another one, mmm,... oh yeah:

Exodus 20:12 ( NKJV ) 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
How does one dishonor a father or a mother, when one has no such thing as a father or a mother? Adam had no human parents.
let's see is there anything else, mmm,.... oh yeah:

Exodus 20:15 ( NKJV ) 15 “You shall not steal.

taking something that don't belong to you without permission.
How does one steal another's possession, when no one was recorded to have any possessions? Not even clothing!
i just hope you're loving it! ;)
I really recommend becoming familiar with Romans 5.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned----
13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Death has plagued those who have not sinned according to the transgression Adam performed. Adam had no ten commandments, and was charged with a specific transgression that isn't even included anywhere in the law mediated by Moses. In response to a request to show how the non-existent ten commandments covenant was violated in the garden of Eden, your response doesn't appear to be thought out or compliant with Scripture telling us that sin existed before the law did.
 
Upvote 0

VictorC

Jesus - that's my final answer
Mar 25, 2008
5,228
479
Northern Colorado
✟29,537.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
anywho,it is clear that paul is talking about the mosaic law in gal 3. note the references to "works of the law" (from the greek ergon nomos) and his reference to the "book of the law" (you know, the part of the law that moses wrote, hence, mosaic law. ex 24:5,7)

now, let's back up from gal 3:24 to gal 3:19,

Galatians 3:19 ( NKJV ) 19What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

what purpose did the law serve? he actually answers this question in verse 24, but notice that the law was added because of transgressions. but what law or laws were being transgressed?
The meaning of "added because of transgressions" simply means that the law was added to define transgressions that would violate it, and those transgressions existed already.
(but of course it couldn't have been the ten comandments)
That is inconsistent, as the ten commandments was the covenant that was given through Moses, at the same time Moses received God's instructions that he later codified in the book of the law. The content of each have the same origin of time, as Moses testified in Deuteronomy 4:
11 "Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness.
12 "And the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice.
13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
14 "And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.
remember?

Romans 4:15 ( NKJV ) 15because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

since the law was added because of transgressions or sin, there had to be a law that existed so that "the law" could be addded!
That comes from rendering "added because of transgressions or sin" from an incomplete definition of sin equating the two. If you're going to use Romans as a guide, you should also include Romans 5:13:
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Sin existed before the law did, showing that sin and transgressions to a codified law are separate entities.
just too bad that we don't know what law or laws that was being transgressed, a pure shame.

well, we do know it wasn't the mosaic law.
That simply means that there was no transgression of law prior to the Mosaic covenant, since there was no law mediated through Moses before Moses came onto the historical scene.
also notice that "the law" was added until! until what?
...till the Seed should come!

so, this tells us that the law was to be added but that it would have a definite duration!

that's where:

Galatians 3:23-25 ( NKJV ) 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

comes into play.

the mosaic law fullfiled it purpose, came 430 years after abraham and taught the COI the habit of obedience.
but verse 25 says that we are no longer under a tutor, why?
You were doing fine until you decided to ask "why". Being kept under the law for a period of time you acknowledge was temporal also acknowledges that once faith in our Redeemer came, that ownership conveyed by "kept under the law" came to an end once the ownership of the purchased possession (us) was transferred via redemption. Galatians 4 addresses that as the reason Jesus Christ came:
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Redemption places being under the law in the past tense, and that is the reason that we are no longer under the tutelage of the law.
because:

Daniel 9:27 ( NKJV ) 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week (and Christ literaly died on wednesday)
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
I am among the minority who agrees that the crucifixion was on a Wednesday, followed by the High Sabbath on Thursday, Mary buying embalming spices on Friday, and the second sabbath of the week happening on Saturday. However, Daniel 9:27 refers to the midst of a shabuwa, dividing the heptad of "seven" we commonly regard as "years", and it isn't a reference to a literal week. I don't think Daniel 9:27 is germane, and you're making a point from this verse that it doesn't really support.
mosaic law, and not the ten commandments, was added because of gal 3:19, and served its purpose per gal 3:24!
Here you do nothing short of displaying an open prejudice against the Mosaic covenant. The ten commandments was every bit as much Mosaic law as the book of the law was. The tables of stone was the covenant handed to Moses on Mount Sinai, and the book of the law was the same covenant Moses wrote at Horeb, from orally dictated instructions directly from God. Galatians addresses the ten commandments itself in Galatians 4:
21 ¶ Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar----
25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children----
26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband."
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."
Here we have Paul's instruction to cast off the bondwoman, which he defines as the covenant from Mount Sinai: "the one from Mount Sinai". There was only one covenant that had Mount Sinai as its origin. Scroll back up in this post and review the testimony Moses gave us from Deuteronomy 4 for the proper noun naming the covenant from Mount Sinai - the Ten Commandments, written on tables of stone.

That is what Galatians is addressing with the same impact as the book of the law. The law was indivisible, and we are redeemed from the law as a unit that includes the covenant from Mount Sinai, the Ten Commandments.
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
since sin is the transgression of the law, the ten commandments, let's see...

disobeying God and listening to Satan... which commandment was that one, oh yeah:

Exodus 20:3 ( NKJV ) 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

mmm, was there another one, mmm,... oh yeah:

Exodus 20:12 ( NKJV ) 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

dishonor to parents, remember,

Luke 3:38 ( NKJV ) 38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

let's see is there anything else, mmm,.... oh yeah:

Exodus 20:15 ( NKJV ) 15 “You shall not steal.

taking something that don't belong to you without permission.

i just hope you're loving it! ;)
Yes I love your mockery. Now answer these questions please.

Who were Adam and Eve's parents - neither were concieved or born - both were created. Since the commandment pertains to the parents mommy and daddy.

Who were Adam and Eve going to commit adultery with? There were no other people on the planet till after the expulsion form the garden.

Who were they going to steal from?

Why would God give them laws that they could not comply with?

I am very curious.

bugkiller
927154.gif
 
Upvote 0

YosemiteSam

Newbie
Apr 30, 2010
811
21
in Texas
✟1,012.00
Faith
Marital Status
Single
The meaning of "added because of transgressions" simply means that the law was added to define transgressions that would violate it, and those transgressions existed already.

Reading over your post to JohnRabbit. Interesting; however, lacks credibility and logic. It says "added because of transgressions". Transgression to what? Would you have us believe "transgressions to a future law" that does not exist yet? How can one break a law that does not exist? Interesting, but not logical at all.

Abraham kept the statues, commandments and laws of God in Gen 26:5 Abraham obeyed God. Four hundred and thirty years later, the Hebrews were being led out of captivity. During thier time in captivity, they had lost their knowledge of God. God was working with them, showing them His ways. They kept the Passover (a Sabbath) and the Days of Unleavened Bread (also a Sabbath) while exiting Egypt. They were shown the 7th day of the week by the raining down of manna. Here we can clearly see the keeping of the Sabbath before the Mt. Sinai event. The Sabbath being one of the ten commandments as well. See Exodus

Interestingly enough you pulled Romans 5:13 to substantiate the argument that before Mt. Sinai there was no law. This argument too is made void by the facts. A closer look at Rom 5:12-14:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law) 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam transgression..."

The above clearly shows that sin - the transgression of the law - entered in through Adam. Second, scripture states that "sin is not imputed when there is no law", then why do we see sin imputed from the beginning? If there had been no law, then there could be no penalty of the sin. The scriptures are explicit and must not be rejected. God told Adam "in the day that thou shall eat you shall surely die." He would die, he would see death, and that is because he choose to sin, and sin brings death but only by the transgression of an existing law. So how is it that death reigned from Adam to Moses, without a law?

We see the Sabbath being kept before Mt. Sinai and being one of the 10. Do you suppose that Adam broke another of the 10?

In Gen 4 we see "sin" lying at the door of Cain, whom took his brothers life. Was the sin imputed? You might read the account of it.

For if "sin is the transgression of the law" 1 Jn 3:4; howbeit then was sin in the world before Adam? I ask you this.
 
Upvote 0

davidsheart77

Newbie
Aug 1, 2010
248
9
Lansing, Mi
✟22,903.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Thank you for your response, it addresses the initial question directly and contains very good points for consideration..


Its funny how a complete unneccessary information would suffice your answer when you avoid the root of the problem. Trying explaining that before Christ, for the reason you have condemned and judged your brethren for no cause. I hope that answer will suffice Christ on the day of visitation.
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
The meaning of "added because of transgressions" simply means that the law was added to define transgressions that would violate it, and those transgressions existed already.

Reading over your post to JohnRabbit. Interesting; however, lacks credibility and logic. It says "added because of transgressions". Transgression to what? Would you have us believe "transgressions to a future law" that does not exist yet? How can one break a law that does not exist? Interesting, but not logical at all.

Abraham kept the statues, commandments and laws of God in Gen 26:5 Abraham obeyed God. Four hundred and thirty years later, the Hebrews were being led out of captivity. During thier time in captivity, they had lost their knowledge of God. God was working with them, showing them His ways. They kept the Passover (a Sabbath) and the Days of Unleavened Bread (also a Sabbath) while exiting Egypt. They were shown the 7th day of the week by the raining down of manna. Here we can clearly see the keeping of the Sabbath before the Mt. Sinai event. The Sabbath being one of the ten commandments as well. See Exodus

Interestingly enough you pulled Romans 5:13 to substantiate the argument that before Mt. Sinai there was no law. This argument too is made void by the facts. A closer look at Rom 5:12-14:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law) 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam transgression..."

The above clearly shows that sin - the transgression of the law - entered in through Adam. Second, scripture states that "sin is not imputed when there is no law", then why do we see sin imputed from the beginning? If there had been no law, then there could be no penalty of the sin. The scriptures are explicit and must not be rejected. God told Adam "in the day that thou shall eat you shall surely die." He would die, he would see death, and that is because he choose to sin, and sin brings death but only by the transgression of an existing law. So how is it that death reigned from Adam to Moses, without a law?

We see the Sabbath being kept before Mt. Sinai and being one of the 10. Do you suppose that Adam broke another of the 10?

In Gen 4 we see "sin" lying at the door of Cain, whom took his brothers life. Was the sin imputed? You might read the account of it.

For if "sin is the transgression of the law" 1 Jn 3:4; howbeit then was sin in the world before Adam? I ask you this.
You are calling the law of God exclusively the ten commandments. The ten commandments did not exist until Sinai. There are other definitions included in what sin is and a good one applicable to this converstation is all unrighteousness is sin I John 5:17. Unrighteous acts do not require a law to be such.

One of the purposes of the law was to charge and find (prove) guilt and condemn so that punishment could be administered. Another of its purposes was so God could show mercy on all. I think both are covered in Romans 11:32.

This post is a response to YosemiteSam, not VictorC.

bugkiller
927154.gif
 
Upvote 0

JacktheCatholic

Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
Mar 9, 2007
24,545
2,797
57
Michigan, USA
Visit site
✟51,888.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Do we use animals these days to do our work? No! What is the intention of the law (ten commandments)? Is it not that all work be stopped? If riding an ass was wrong under the ten commandments, how is riding on (in) a vehicle any different? A legalism invalidating the ten commandments that you uphold?


The Law was made for Man and not Man for the Law. :)
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
The Law was made for Man and not Man for the Law. :)
:)
The Jews still have a loooong time to go before they are out from under the Law :thumbsup:

Matthew 5:18 "For amen I am saying to ye, till ever may be passing-away the Heaven and the Land, iota one or one horn/tittle not no may be passing away from the Law, untill ever all shall-be-becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638)"
[Revelation 16:17/ 21:1,6]

Reve 16:17 and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of Him upon the air and came out great Voice, from the sanctuary *of the heaven, from the throne saying "it has become"/gegonen <1096> (5754).
[Reve 21:6]
 
Upvote 0

JohnRabbit

just trying to understand
Site Supporter
Feb 12, 2009
4,383
320
i am in alabama
✟100,288.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
It's already served its purpose and design. We no longer need a tutor.

how did it serve its purpose?

the tutor you speak of was the mosaic law, but what law is this:

Romans 3:20 ( NKJV ) 20Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

if the law let's us know what sin is, then why do away with it and if the law is done away, you tell me what sin is?

and what about the kingdom to come?

Isaiah 9:6-7 ( NKJV ) 6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

a kingdom or government needs laws, right? you may not think so, but the bible does:

Isaiah 2:3 ( NKJV ) 3 Many people shall come and say,
&#8220;Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.&#8221;
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

of course we know that this is speaking of a time that is yet future and God is still talking about law.

he will teach us His ways...
and we shall walk in His paths...

the law is not merely a bunch of do's and don'ts or necessarily rules to follow by, but represents God's way which is different than man's way.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JohnRabbit

just trying to understand
Site Supporter
Feb 12, 2009
4,383
320
i am in alabama
✟100,288.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Aren't you really just talkng about elementalism?

Isn't our Christianity about more than that?

In other words, isn't life in Christ about realtionship with him, or following rules?

Paul called law life as a child in gal 3 and 4.

yes, you are correct!

it's about a relationship with our Creator, but our Creator has expressed His ways in the law, see isaiah 2:3.

you can't have a relationship with God if you don't know His way of living.

remember, love fullfils the law and God is love.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.