Why Should I Go To Church?

[daydreamergurl15]

I'm not a fan of Paul. He was so prejudiced against women it's ridiculous. He obviously had a personal problem with women, so I don't accept that as part of God's plan.

Do you like the part when Paul says this?

Romans 5:6-8

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.​

My point is this, you cannot pick and choose what is written in scripture. Christ called Paul to be an apostle, to spread His word, it is through the Holy Spirit that these are written, if God sees fit to put certain things in His word, we either have to accept all of it, or none of it. It's not a pick or choose thing. God never asked us the question: Do you agree with everything I have written?

Now, as for Paul hating women, I shake my head every time I read that, because it's so obvious that people are not truly reading the word. And it seems that if women aren't allowed to do something in scripture then it somehow means that person was a hater of women. In the end, when I am judged by God on His word, I don't think I can sit there and tell Him "Oh, there were certain parts of Your word I didn't like nor followed because it was obvious Paul hates women." I trust God and I trust His decision, if He wanted genders to do different roles, then I'm going to listen, because it is what makes Him happy, that's what glorifies Him. I am not going to get into heaven by making up my own rules, so I'm going to trust in His.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Do you like the part when Paul says this?

Romans 5:6-8

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
​

My point is this, you cannot pick and choose what is written in scripture. Christ called Paul to be an apostle, to spread His word, it is through the Holy Spirit that these are written, if God sees fit to put certain things in His word, we either have to accept all of it, or none of it. It's not a pick or choose thing. God never asked us the question: Do you agree with everything I have written?

Now, as for Paul hating women, I shake my head every time I read that, because it's so obvious that people are not truly reading the word. And it seems that if women aren't allowed to do something in scripture then it somehow means that person was a hater of women. In the end, when I am judged by God on His word, I don't think I can sit there and tell Him "Oh, there were certain parts of Your word I didn't like nor followed because it was obvious Paul hates women." I trust God and I trust His decision, if He wanted genders to do different roles, then I'm going to listen, because it is what makes Him happy, that's what glorifies Him. I am not going to get into heaven by making up my own rules, so I'm going to trust in His.

God bless the 'handmaiden of God' daydreamergurl15!

Forgive me...

 

[daydreamergurl15]

The instruction for women to keep quiet was written to that specific church, because you had women (who were traditionally NOT taught anything about Scripture) shouting questions to their husbands across the room (because traditionally, women and men sat on opposite sides of the room). Paul is just telling them to be respectful in church, and ask their husbands questions at home. So Paul is not so much attacking women here, as concerned about respect and order in church. And note, he doesn't say "women shouldn't be taught anything" - which is what he would have said if he were following the tradition of his elders.

You cannot say that it was specifically to the church in Corinth because we are told in 1 Timothy 2:8-15 (a different congregation) the same thing, that women is to learn in silence.

As for covering their heads - in the world of that day, NOT covering your head meant you were a prostitute and were just calling attention to yourself. Again, concern for order. (And personally, I'd rather wear a headscarf in church...but it isn't the custom in western churches anymore )

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:1-15 that there is no such customs for head covering in the church and that a woman's hair is considered her head covering.

 

[Melethiel]

You cannot say that it was specifically to the church in Corinth because we are told in 1 Timothy 2:8-15 (a different congregation) the same thing, that women is to learn in silence.

Fair enough...but it's from the same general problem.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:1-15 that there is no such customs for head covering in the church and that a woman's hair is considered her head covering.

Jewish women wore head coverings. That is a fact.

"If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do(R) the churches of God."

Read it in context. He's saying there is no such practice for women to pray uncovered, or for men to pray covered.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Fair enough...but it's from the same general problem.
Jewish women wore head coverings. That is a fact.

Maybe

"If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do(R) the churches of God."

Read it in context. He's saying there is no such practice for women to pray uncovered, or for men to pray covered.

I think he means that men do not pray with long hair and women do not pray without hair because he then says that hair is a woman's head covering.

1 Corinthians 11:13-16

13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.​

I think Paul was trying to tell the church that hair is what is considered head covering and not anything else.

 

[Melethiel]

Notes from the Lutheran study Bible:

In Roman culture, both men and women conveyed their status, including their marital situation, by their appearance. A head covering, basically a shawl draped over the head, conveyed that a woman was married and intended to remain in that situation. Some Roman women, however, sought to live as "new women" who did not intent to remain faithful to their husbands. Women who uncovered their head immodestly drew attention to themselves by signaling that they were available to other men. In the name of "Gospel freedom" and "rights", this thinking and behavior began to influence Christians at Corinth. Paul's instruction reminds the Corinthians that their actions always communicate something to others...By removing the head covering, the woman signals that she is abandoning the role given her by God. Seeking to turn away from God but then turning to Him in prayer are contradictory...in verse 15, Paul is pointing out that the practices of Roman culture regarding head coverings and gender distinction are in harmony with God's will. Women typically braided or knotted their hair and also wore a cloth or veil covering.

I think he means that men do not pray with long hair

And yet, he's still making an argument from culture, not Scripture. After all, certain orders like the Nazirites were in fact commanded to not cut their hair.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Notes from the Lutheran study Bible:

In Roman culture, both men and women conveyed their status, including their marital situation, by their appearance. A head covering, basically a shawl draped over the head, conveyed that a woman was married and intended to remain in that situation. Some Roman women, however, sought to live as "new women" who did not intent to remain faithful to their husbands. Women who uncovered their head immodestly drew attention to themselves by signaling that they were available to other men. In the name of "Gospel freedom" and "rights", this thinking and behavior began to influence Christians at Corinth. Paul's instruction reminds the Corinthians that their actions always communicate something to others...By removing the head covering, the woman signals that she is abandoning the role given her by God. Seeking to turn away from God but then turning to Him in prayer are contradictory...in verse 15, Paul is pointing out that the practices of Roman culture regarding head coverings and gender distinction are in harmony with God's will. Women typically braided or knotted their hair and also wore a cloth or veil covering.

I don't think it was in harmony with God's will. I don't think Paul was telling them that they should keep a veil on to signify that they are married. I'm not saying that Paul was not addressing the culture, what I mean is that, I think Paul was trying to tell the Corinthian church that hair is what was considered a head covering to God, not veils or anything else when they worshiped together. Remember, Paul was dealing with the church worship because Corinthian was having problems with that.

Now, when the Christian woman was not in the church worship (as a congregation), they probably did wear veils, if married, so the guys would know (frankly, I like the fact that wedding rings have replaced the veils ) but I think Paul was establishing of what should be done in a corporate worshiping setting.

And I believe he also addressed the idea of braiding hair and what not in 1 Timothy 2:9-10

9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.​

Yes, I think Paul was speaking about their culture, but I think he was also telling them what God expected of them, even if it went against their culture.

And yet, he's still making an argument from culture, not Scripture. After all, certain orders like the Nazirites were in fact commanded to not cut their hair.

Yes, but under the old law, the Nazirites had a certain period of time when they could not cut their hair but after their vows were over, they were told to cut their hair. Samson was an exception.

Numbers 6:9

 

[Melethiel]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Why the discussion on head coverings?

It's not Dogma.

Forgive me...

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

I hope you realize that when I wrote about head covering, I am speaking in the context of what should be done in worship. And that when they were out around everyone else, not in worship, then women probably wore the veil to signify that they were married. I don't think Paul was telling them not to wear the veil when they were going about in society, I just think that when they were in worship there was no need for a head covering because the hair of women was their covering.

 

[Melethiel]

I hope you realize that when I wrote about head covering, I am speaking in the context of what should be done in worship. And that when they were out around everyone else, not in worship, then women probably wore the veil to signify that they were married. I don't think Paul was telling them not to wear the veil when they were going about in society, I just think that when they were in worship there was no need for a head covering because the hair of women was their covering.

Yes, I understand - and I disagree. But as OUSA said, it's not dogma, so let's let it go.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Speaking of Dogma.

How would one know what is dogmatic if not attending Church?

Forgive me...

 

[Fireinfolding]

Notes from the Lutheran study Bible:

In Roman culture, both men and women conveyed their status, including their marital situation, by their appearance. A head covering, basically a shawl draped over the head, conveyed that a woman was married and intended to remain in that situation. Some Roman women, however, sought to live as "new women" who did not intent to remain faithful to their husbands. Women who uncovered their head immodestly drew attention to themselves by signaling that they were available to other men. In the name of "Gospel freedom" and "rights", this thinking and behavior began to influence Christians at Corinth. Paul's instruction reminds the Corinthians that their actions always communicate something to others...By removing the head covering, the woman signals that she is abandoning the role given her by God. Seeking to turn away from God but then turning to Him in prayer are contradictory...in verse 15, Paul is pointing out that the practices of Roman culture regarding head coverings and gender distinction are in harmony with God's will. Women typically braided or knotted their hair and also wore a cloth or veil covering.


And yet, he's still making an argument from culture, not Scripture. After all, certain orders like the Nazirites were in fact commanded to not cut their hair.

1Cr 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?


1Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel

Plaiting

1) an interweaving, braiding, a knot
2) an elaborate gathering of one's hair into knots

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

1Cr 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?


1Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel

Reve 17:4 And the Woman was having been about-cast/clothed/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) purple and scarlet and having been gilded to gold and precious stone and pearls

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

1Cr 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?


1Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel

Long hair....ruling women....

Isaiah 3:12 My people, ones exacting of him, unweaned child, and women they rule in him.
My people, ones making happy thee, ones leading-straying and way of thy path they swallow up
[Reve 9:7,8]

Reve 9:7 And the likenesses of the locusts like horses having been made ready into battle, and upon the heads of them, as crowns, like gold, and the faces of them as faces of men,
8 and they had hairs/tricaV <2359> as hairs/tricaV <2359> of women, and the teeth of them were as of lions,
[Isaiah 3:12]

 

[Fireinfolding]

Reve 17:4 And the Woman was having been about-cast/clothed/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) purple and scarlet and having been gilded to gold and precious stone and pearls

I do look at it like this

Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said


1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Even as the temple was adorned (outwardly) the same holds true (of us) who are the temple of God (speaking to "the adorning of" it)

1Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;


James 2:2-3 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool . Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Man looks on outer appearances, God looks on the heart, let your adorning be after the "hidden man" of the heart.

 

[Timothew]

I don't think that you should be condemned for not going to church. I wouldn't want to go to the churches you described, either. Do you have any Christian friends that you meet with? I think Christians should help each other, if not within a church, then "without" a church . But I do hope that you can find a nice church where the people will help you and you can help them.

Good luck to you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Man looks on outer appearances, God looks on the heart, let your adorning be after the "hidden man" of the heart.

Jeremiah 17:10 I YHWH, searching heart, examining the affections/kidneys/ 03629 kilyah and giving to man Ways of him, as Fruit of his doings.
[Reve 2:23]

Reve 2:23 And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death, and shall be knowing all the Out-Calleds that I am the One searching kidneys/reigns/nefrouV <3510> and hearts and I shall be giving to ye each according to the works of Ye.
[Jeremiah 17:10]

 

[Timothew]

Thanks LLOJ, It always does my kidneys good to see your posts!