So who goes to hell?

[Albion]

Frankly, I do not think that it's "judging" to say that certain groups or types of people are bound for hell--based upon what we believe the Bible teaches. That's a matter of doctrine, not judging. And we also realize that our guesswork is not iron-clad, that we could be deceived by outward appearances.

We all know that God is the only one who will actually make the final decision on any of us.

 

[PStephens]

The quote shows complete humility, putting all others above self and judging no one which is absolutely in agreement with scripture.

You're going to have to give me some verses saying that all are saved in the scripture for me to go accepting that statement.

Matt 7:13-14:
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

It did not say all. To say that everyone is saved is to say that even those that don't believe in Christ are saved. That's ridiculous. I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding something here because I can't see how the idea that all are saved could possibly be believed.

But only God can judge who those people are. You, me and St Silouan cannot.

You're right. We can't. It's not our place to determine who God's elect are. We are to simply preach the gospel and spread the good news as stated in the Great Commission.

 

[brinny]

You're going to have to give me some verses saying that all are saved in the scripture for me to go accepting that statement.

Matt 7:13-14:
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

It did not say all. To say that everyone is saved is to say that even those that don't believe in Christ are saved. That's ridiculous. I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding something here because I can't see how the idea that all are saved could possibly be believed.



You're right. We can't. It's not our place to determine who God's elect are. We are to simply preach the gospel and spread the good news as stated in the Great Commission.

Indeed. Amen.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

You're going to have to give me some verses saying that all are saved in the scripture for me to go accepting that statement.

Theses verses comes to mind

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the Number of the sons of Israel as the Sand of the Sea, the Remnant/kataleimma <2640> shall be being Saved'". [Daniel 12:1/Romans 11:26]

Romans 11:26 Thus All Israel shall be being saved according as it has been written 'there shall arriving out of Zion one rescuing and shall He shall be turning away unrevernce from Jacob

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW3.htm
GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED

 

[Albion]

Theses verses comes to mind

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the Number of the sons of Israel as the Sand of the Sea, the Remnant/kataleimma <2640> shall be being Saved'". [Daniel 12:1/Romans 11:26]

Romans 11:26 Thus All Israel shall be being saved according as it has been written 'there shall arriving out of Zion one rescuing and shall He shall be turning away unrevernce from Jacob

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of The World Part 3

There are about a half-dozen verses, not counting the ones you mentioned here, which strongly suggest universal salvation (not that I'm saying that the Bible as a whole leans that way).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There are about a half-dozen verses, not counting the ones you mentioned here, which strongly suggest universal salvation (not that I'm saying that the Bible as a whole leans that way).

The jewish/hebrew book of Revelation could perhaps also provide some insight into that.

[the Jews of course do not read or study it, even tho 12 of their own tribes are mentioned in it ]

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the Number of the sons of Israel as the Sand of the Sea, the Remnant shall be being saved'". [Isaiah 10:22,23/Daniel 12/Reve 20:8]

Reve 20:8 and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the Four Corners of the Land, the Gog and Magog, to be together-assembling them into the battle of which the Number of them as the Sand of the Sea.[Ezekiel 7:1-2]

 

[PStephens]

Israel is God's elect. They are His chosen people. God saves His elect. Those verses did not say that the whole world is saved.

And thinking about it, I don't think to say all are saved is selfless at all. I think it's selfish. What's selfless is when a man or woman of God lays down their life for the sake of their King Jesus and declares that they will serve Him and preach His truth no matter what the cost. It's selfless when a Christian sacrifices themselves in prayer, fasting, and patient discipling for the sake of bringing the person to salvation.
But to say that all are saved even when they are clearly living in sin (1 John 3:6) seems to me to be more selfish in that nothing is being done to bring that person into the light of Christ. It seems it's more about self-preservation and/or fear because this idea of universalism can so easily lead one to not feel they need to do anything because all are saved.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*
Israel is God's elect. They are His chosen people. God saves His elect. Those verses did not say that the whole world is saved.
.

When you say Israel, whom would that be today? Just curious

 

[PStephens]

All through the OT, Israel is God's people. So the verses you've given are referring to God's elect.

 

[Secundulus]

When you say Israel, whom would that be today? Just curious

Starts with a "C".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Starts with a "C".

Ahhh yes.....CHRIST!

Zephaniah 3:15 YHWH takes away judgements of thee. He makes face-about one being enemy of thee. King of Yisra'el, YHWH in within of thee, not thou shall fear evil further.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I make them to a-nation, One in land, in mountains of Israel.
And a King, One, He shall become for all of them to a-King and not shall be further to two of Nations and not they shall be divided furthur to two of Kingdoms further

 

[Albion]

Israel is God's elect. They are His chosen people.

They're his chosen people, all right, but the Bible speaks of the Elect in individual terms.

God saves His elect. Those verses did not say that the whole world is saved.

Oops, I guess you're speaking to what LLOJ posted. But there are other verses that IMO are more clearly descriptive of universal salvation.

And thinking about it, I don't think to say all are saved is selfless at all. I think it's selfish. What's selfless is when a man or woman of God lays down their life for the sake of their King Jesus and declares that they will serve Him and preach His truth no matter what the cost. It's selfless when a Christian sacrifices themselves in prayer, fasting, and patient discipling for the sake of bringing the person to salvation.
But to say that all are saved even when they are clearly living in sin (1 John 3:6) seems to me to be more selfish in that nothing is being done to bring that person into the light of Christ.

I'm not a Universalist myself, but I can say that that is a common misconception, what you write here. The idea of universal salvation holds that all will be saved BUT NOT that all will be saved at the same time or in the same way. It's just that all will be saved ULTIMATELY. Those with "bad records" as you are speaking of my well have to endure punishment that other people will not have to face.

It seems it's more about self-preservation and/or fear because this idea of universalism can so easily lead one to not feel they need to do anything because all are saved.

Such persons will pass into heaven much later and after much more correction than those who don't take such an attitude, the universalist would say.

 

[PStephens]

Are you asking who are God's elect? I can't give everyone's name, but I can give a general answer and that is all the regenerated believers in Christ. All Christians who've come to faith in Christ and thus bore the seeds of repentance. The saved. And all those who will be saved. These are God's people.

 

[PStephens]

They're his chosen people, all right, but the Bible speaks of the Elect in individual terms.


Oops, I guess you're speaking to what LLOJ posted. But there are other verses that IMO are more clearly descriptive of universal salvation.


I'm not a Universalist myself, but I can say that that is a common misconception, what you write here. The idea of universal salvation holds that all will be saved BUT NOT that all will be saved at the same time or in the same way. It's just that all will be saved ULTIMATELY. Those with "bad records" as you are speaking of my well have to endure punishment that other people will not have to face.


Such persons will pass into heaven much later and after much more correction than those who don't take such an attitude, the universalist would say.

Ok. I've learned something. But even after learning that, I'm still completely against that. Though it is good know that I am a Calvinist. So you can see why I can't agree.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ok. I've learned something. But even after learning that, I'm still completely against that. Though it is good know that I am a Calvinist. So you can see why I can't agree.

Ahhh......I didn't know that. We had a birthday party for him on another thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7382164-127/#post52293555

 

[Albion]

Are you asking who are God's elect? I can't give everyone's name, but I can give a general answer and that is all the regenerated believers in Christ. All Christians who've come to faith in Christ and thus bore the seeds of repentance. The saved. And all those who will be saved. These are God's people.

That takes a word (Elect) which clearly indicates a choice or selection and turns it on its head, making "Elect" mean everyone who makes it successfully to the end. That's not "Election."

 

[Albion]

Ok. I've learned something. But even after learning that, I'm still completely against that. Though it is good know that I am a Calvinist. So you can see why I can't agree.

Sure, but it's always good to know what it is you are rejecting, better than opposing a stereotype that is not what the other person believes at all. And, again, there are indeed verses in scripture that suggest universal salvation, in case anyone should deny it, but there are more that suggest the opposite.

 

[PStephens]

That takes a word (Elect) which clearly indicates a choice or selection and turns it on its head, making "Elect" mean everyone who makes it successfully to the end. That's not "Election."

That's not what I meant, so thank you for pointing that out. The elect are predestined before they are even in their mother's womb. I was chosen as a child of God before I was even created.
What I meant was that those who would all eventually come to salvation were all predestined to come to that point in the first place.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That's not what I meant, so thank you for pointing that out. The elect are predestined before they are even in their mother's womb. I was chosen as a child of God before I was even created.
What I meant was that those who would all eventually come to salvation were all predestined to come to that point in the first place.

Are there any type of Christians you would exclude from that predestination/chosen?

 

[Albion]

That's not what I meant, so thank you for pointing that out. The elect are predestined before they are even in their mother's womb. I was chosen as a child of God before I was even created.
What I meant was that those who would all eventually come to salvation were all predestined to come to that point in the first place.

Right. Changing the order of the words or changing a word or two can make it seem that the speaker has a totally different idea in mind when it comes to this particular subject.