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Question: Religious titles

fremen

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Hello all, :wave:
I have a question for you. In Matt. 23, Jesus seems to be against the use of religious titles, including the term "rabbi", which quite literally means "my great one", applied to anyone but himself. It is interesting because Jesus uses three of the main terms applied to the religious leadership at his time.

The "Av"/Father would be a term used for the de-facto spiritual leader of the Sanhedrin, as the "Nasi" was more administrative than anything else.

The terms "Rabbi" and "Rabban", literally "My/Our Great One", were applied to teachers who gathered many followers. A "Rabbi" whose teachings became greatly widespread would become a "Rabban" in latter generations.

The term "Master" would most likely refer to the term "Moreh", which was the Essene title for their own leader, the "Teacher of Righteousness".

There seems also to be a sort of a mild word-play on the term "cohen harosh" (head priest, which is the same as "cohen hagadol", that is "high priest"), when it is said that Christ is the "head", which would probably be seen as a call not to submit to the corrupt leadership of the Sadducees. The Essenes had a similar word-play, calling such a leader the "cohen hareisha" (evil priest), rather than the "cohen harosh".

In fact, this seems consistent with the rest of the narrative of the New Testament. I don't see Paul, Peter and James displaying or making use of any religious title whatsoever. I hear a lot of Messianics calling Paul "Rabbi Shaul" and while it is certain he was educated as such, why does he not refer to himself as such?

When looking at the "titles" in display in the New Testament, such as shephard/pastor, deacon and bishop, they all seem much more like roles than titles.

A shephard was simply one who oversaw the welfare of people, either physically or spiritually. It would most likely refer to those who did bikur cholim, or who patiently sat with others to tend to their needs.

A deacon in the Aramaic is called a "shamash", which is the older word for the office of a "gabbai". Essentially, people who helped in the preparation/execution of the liturgy of a religious meeting. Those people would likely distribute prayer books, control attendance, maybe clean the place, get the food ready, etc. Again, much more a role than a title.

A bishop is likely to be the word "zaken", which is basically a person who is older and thus more mature in religious affairs. Such people usually served as judges and members of the Beit Din for the purpose of orienting the younger. Again, not a title at all.

So my questions are:

1) Am I missing something here? If so, would you kindly point me to understanding?
2) How do you see this issue of religious titles?
3) Why does Christianity with so many titles seem so far off from the teachings of Jesus in this respect?

Kol tov,
Fremen
 

ContraMundum

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Hello all, :wave:
I have a question for you. In Matt. 23, Jesus seems to be against the use of religious titles, including the term "rabbi", which quite literally means "my great one", applied to anyone but himself. It is interesting because Jesus uses three of the main terms applied to the religious leadership at his time.

The more ancient understanding of that text is somewhat different here. He is not speaking against titles, but against ascribing roles to men which ultimately apply to God. There's a whole bunch of articles supporting the more ancient understanding and explaining it deeper on the web.

So my questions are:

1) Am I missing something here? If so, would you kindly point me to understanding?
2) How do you see this issue of religious titles?
3) Why does Christianity with so many titles seem so far off from the teachings of Jesus in this respect?

Kol tov,
Fremen
The use of titles is not forbidden, as Jesus Himself (eg. calling Nicodemus "teacher") and His apostles used titles. The words used to describe roles are also used as titles in Christianity- eg. bishop (episcopos). I think that this position pretty much answers all three questions. The point Jesus was making is that God is Our Father, our Teacher etc. We regard earthly fathers and teachers as subject to Him and open to questioning. The incident mentioned in Matthew's Gospel addresses a scenario where this principle had been forgotten or abused.
 
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David Ben Yosef

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Hello all, :wave:
I have a question for you. In Matt. 23, Jesus seems to be against the use of religious titles, including the term "rabbi", which quite literally means "my great one", applied to anyone but himself. It is interesting because Jesus uses three of the main terms applied to the religious leadership at his time.

You would be correct in raising an eyebrow at Matthew 23:8. It's hard to imagine a Jewish Pharasaic Rabbi telling his talmidim not to be called Rabbi. It's worthy to note that the earliest Greek manuscripts don't have the words "the Mashiach" in that verse at all. ;)
 
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fremen

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You would be correct in raising an eyebrow at Matthew 23:8. It's hard to imagine a Jewish Pharasaic Rabbi telling his talmidim not to be called Rabbi. It's worthy to note that the earliest Greek manuscripts don't have the words "the Mashiach" in that verse at all. ;)

I seriously doubt Jesus was a Pharisee. Yes, some of his teachings agree with that of the Pharisaic sect. Others differ greatly, and are closer to other sects. In fact, there are more parallels with the Qumran sect than with the Pharisees.
The term "Rabbi" was not exclusive to the Pharisees in the times of Jesus.

Even if he wouldn't apply the term to himself, he didn't seem to object it. But that's beside the point of my question, as Jesus does play a prominent role in the faith of Christianity.

Kol tov,
Fremen
 
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fremen

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Hi Contra, :wave:

The more ancient understanding of that text is somewhat different here. He is not speaking against titles, but against ascribing roles to men which ultimately apply to God. There's a whole bunch of articles supporting the more ancient understanding and explaining it deeper on the web.

With all due respect, if Jesus wanted to say such a thing, why didn't he say it clearly? It seems to me that at face value his teaching is against religious titles.

The use of titles is not forbidden, as Jesus Himself (eg. calling Nicodemus "teacher") and His apostles used titles. The words used to describe roles are also used as titles in Christianity- eg. bishop (episcopos).

I don't think forbidden, I think discouraged. I don't see any examples in the NT of his disciples making use of religious titles. I am aware that the words are used in Christianity as titles, but it seems to be a change in their original purpose, doesn't it? A zaken (elder) is not a title. A zaken is a role which is restricted to one community, not a title. In fact, in some communities the zakanim serve terms which expire.

Kol tov,
Fremen
 
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JudaicChristian

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Hello all, :wave:
I have a question for you. In Matt. 23, Jesus seems to be against the use of religious titles, including the term "rabbi", which quite literally means "my great one", applied to anyone but himself. It is interesting because Jesus uses three of the main terms applied to the religious leadership at his time.

The "Av"/Father would be a term used for the de-facto spiritual leader of the Sanhedrin, as the "Nasi" was more administrative than anything else.

The terms "Rabbi" and "Rabban", literally "My/Our Great One", were applied to teachers who gathered many followers. A "Rabbi" whose teachings became greatly widespread would become a "Rabban" in latter generations.

The term "Master" would most likely refer to the term "Moreh", which was the Essene title for their own leader, the "Teacher of Righteousness".

There seems also to be a sort of a mild word-play on the term "cohen harosh" (head priest, which is the same as "cohen hagadol", that is "high priest"), when it is said that Christ is the "head", which would probably be seen as a call not to submit to the corrupt leadership of the Sadducees. The Essenes had a similar word-play, calling such a leader the "cohen hareisha" (evil priest), rather than the "cohen harosh".

In fact, this seems consistent with the rest of the narrative of the New Testament. I don't see Paul, Peter and James displaying or making use of any religious title whatsoever. I hear a lot of Messianics calling Paul "Rabbi Shaul" and while it is certain he was educated as such, why does he not refer to himself as such?

When looking at the "titles" in display in the New Testament, such as shephard/pastor, deacon and bishop, they all seem much more like roles than titles.

A shephard was simply one who oversaw the welfare of people, either physically or spiritually. It would most likely refer to those who did bikur cholim, or who patiently sat with others to tend to their needs.

A deacon in the Aramaic is called a "shamash", which is the older word for the office of a "gabbai". Essentially, people who helped in the preparation/execution of the liturgy of a religious meeting. Those people would likely distribute prayer books, control attendance, maybe clean the place, get the food ready, etc. Again, much more a role than a title.

A bishop is likely to be the word "zaken", which is basically a person who is older and thus more mature in religious affairs. Such people usually served as judges and members of the Beit Din for the purpose of orienting the younger. Again, not a title at all.

So my questions are:

1) Am I missing something here? If so, would you kindly point me to understanding?
2) How do you see this issue of religious titles?
3) Why does Christianity with so many titles seem so far off from the teachings of Jesus in this respect?

Kol tov,
Fremen

The terms rabbi, master, and father, are warnings. Ask yourself, what do those three have in common?
 
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ContraMundum

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Hi Contra, :wave:



With all due respect, if Jesus wanted to say such a thing, why didn't he say it clearly? It seems to me that at face value his teaching is against religious titles.

I thought it was clear given the context. Oh well. :)


I don't think forbidden, I think discouraged. I don't see any examples in the NT of his disciples making use of religious titles. I am aware that the words are used in Christianity as titles, but it seems to be a change in their original purpose, doesn't it? A zaken (elder) is not a title. A zaken is a role which is restricted to one community, not a title. In fact, in some communities the zakanim serve terms which expire.

Kol tov,
Fremen

I don't think this is a good approach to the science (if you could call it that) of etymology. Titles almost always come from role/function. Take for example a "doctor". The word "doctor" comes from the Latin word docere which means to "teach". So, "doctor" means teacher. As far as I know the first people given the formal title of doctor were all church theologians- people who taught got the official role and thus the title. Now, of course someone can say that they want to be a doctor when they grow up- and we tend to think of the medical profession although teacher still applies too.

We know that Jesus wasn't opposed to the use of titles as pointed out earlier in His conversation with Nicodemus. He even allowed Caesar his title. Likewise, His followers used terms like "the Twelve" or "The Apostles" as titles for the apostolic group.

So, words like epsicopos mean "overseer", but the overseer of a group of churches does more than just "look over" them, right? He ordains (as shown in the Book of Titus), baptises, celebrates the eucharist etc. Thus, the word episcopos in scripture (and thus tradition follows) means more than just overseer, and therefore it is not merely a role description but clearly a synecdoche-one of those words where the part describes the whole. Being that kind of word, it is a title. It certainly is regarded as one now.

The same principle is even more clear in the word presbyteros. It literally means elder in terms of age. Obviously this is title, not a role. The church doesn't ordain men to be "old of age", but to do the job of a presbyter. The church recognises their maturity in the faith to do the job, not their length of years.

So- here's the bottom line from the Christian perspective on the Christian text: Jesus doesn't forbid the use of titles. Titles are used in scripture for certain roles.
 
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ContraMundum

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It's worthy to note that the earliest Greek manuscripts don't have the words "the Mashiach" in that verse at all. ;)

Nor is it in the Vulgate. Probably it was brought forward from verse 10, which is not a disputed text.
 
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fremen

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I don't think this is a good approach to the science (if you could call it that) of etymology.

I think you're missing my point, my friend. Etymology isn't the only thing at hand here. A doctor is a doctor anywhere he goes - hence the role became a title. The same cannot be said about an Av Beit Din, a Nasi, a Zaken, or a Shamash. They are only applied to that specific function. Also, I may know that Yitschak is a Zaken at a place I go to, but I will not call him "Zaken Yitschak".

This is very different from the approach we see in Christianity these days. When someone signs an e-mail as "Bishop John", then the title is far more than simply a role. You wouldn't see a secretary sign a personal e-mail as "Secretary Mary" or something of that kind. So the two are indeed different things.

Therefore, my question is a valid one: It seems to me that with regards to this aspect, Christian practice seems to differ from what it may have once been, or what Jesus may have taught. Why differenciate between layman and leadership, when Jesus taught they were all on the same level?

Kol tov,
Fremen
 
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ContraMundum

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Therefore, my question is a valid one: It seems to me that with regards to this aspect, Christian practice seems to differ from what it may have once been, or what Jesus may have taught. Why differenciate between layman and leadership, when Jesus taught they were all on the same level?

Kol tov,
Fremen

I understand your point- the vast majority of Christians for almost 2000 years just don't agree with your personal interpretation of the text, nor do I. The context does not lead to the same conclusion you have arrived at. I'm sorry fremen, it's not a supportable premise from our perspective. But then again, if you agreed with the orthodox interpretation of the NT, you'd be a Christian- but you're not so it's ok by me for us to disagree on any given passage in the NT and we can still talk freely.
 
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Heber

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I think you're missing my point, my friend. Etymology isn't the only thing at hand here. A doctor is a doctor anywhere he goes - hence the role became a title. The same cannot be said about an Av Beit Din, a Nasi, a Zaken, or a Shamash. They are only applied to that specific function. Also, I may know that Yitschak is a Zaken at a place I go to, but I will not call him "Zaken Yitschak".

This is very different from the approach we see in Christianity these days. When someone signs an e-mail as "Bishop John", then the title is far more than simply a role. You wouldn't see a secretary sign a personal e-mail as "Secretary Mary" or something of that kind. So the two are indeed different things.

Therefore, my question is a valid one: It seems to me that with regards to this aspect, Christian practice seems to differ from what it may have once been, or what Jesus may have taught. Why differenciate between layman and leadership, when Jesus taught they were all on the same level?

Kol tov,
Fremen

I would be astounded to see any Church official use a title in that way. Most bishops I know (and that is a fair few) merely sign using their first name ONLY!

It would be exceedingly pompous to do otherwise.
 
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visionary

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I thought it was clear given the context. Oh well. :)




I don't think this is a good approach to the science (if you could call it that) of etymology. Titles almost always come from role/function. Take for example a "doctor". The word "doctor" comes from the Latin word docere which means to "teach". So, "doctor" means teacher. As far as I know the first people given the formal title of doctor were all church theologians- people who taught got the official role and thus the title. Now, of course someone can say that they want to be a doctor when they grow up- and we tend to think of the medical profession although teacher still applies too.

We know that Jesus wasn't opposed to the use of titles as pointed out earlier in His conversation with Nicodemus. He even allowed Caesar his title. Likewise, His followers used terms like "the Twelve" or "The Apostles" as titles for the apostolic group.

So, words like epsicopos mean "overseer", but the overseer of a group of churches does more than just "look over" them, right? He ordains (as shown in the Book of Titus), baptises, celebrates the eucharist etc. Thus, the word episcopos in scripture (and thus tradition follows) means more than just overseer, and therefore it is not merely a role description but clearly a synecdoche-one of those words where the part describes the whole. Being that kind of word, it is a title. It certainly is regarded as one now.

The same principle is even more clear in the word presbyteros. It literally means elder in terms of age. Obviously this is title, not a role. The church doesn't ordain men to be "old of age", but to do the job of a presbyter. The church recognises their maturity in the faith to do the job, not their length of years.

So- here's the bottom line from the Christian perspective on the Christian text: Jesus doesn't forbid the use of titles. Titles are used in scripture for certain roles.
Hogwash..
euchrist is not in scripture...That is the kind of thing that happens when man is too full of himself, .. he comes up with his own version of truth..probably a good reason why Yeshua was recorded...

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
 
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fremen

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I would be astounded to see any Church official use a title in that way. Most bishops I know (and that is a fair few) merely sign using their first name ONLY!

It would be exceedingly pompous to do otherwise.

Strangely, the exact opposite happens in South America. Bishops and pastors always present themselves as such. Granted, so do rabbis - but it is the NT that seems to be against this behavior.

I still have the feeling that Jesus wanted to emphasize the equality of men in his religious movement. And yet titles do create a gap. Am I wrong in such a conclusion?
 
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visionary

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There are only two gospels that pay heed to title "Rabbi" ..

But very few actual texts... at least as far as KJV is concerned.

Matthew 23:7
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Matthew 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

John 1:38
Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

John 1:49
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 3:2
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

John 3:26
And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

John 6:25
And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

As seen it was only in reference to what people called Yeshua. I do believe that the early apostles were more apt to call each other "brethren". James was the only one to be head of the early church and even he was known as "elder" out of respect.
 
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ContraMundum

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Hogwash..
euchrist is not in scripture...

Christians can call it eucharist, amongst other things. We get it from scripture.

καὶ εὐχαριστήσας ἔκλασε καὶ εἶπε· λάβετε φάγετε· τοῦτό μού ἐστι τὸ σῶμα τὸ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν κλώμενον· τοῦτο ποιεῖτε εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν. 1 Cor. 11:24

There's a number of references like this in scripture.
 
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Strangely, the exact opposite happens in South America. Bishops and pastors always present themselves as such. Granted, so do rabbis - but it is the NT that seems to be against this behavior.

It's about attitude. The verses preceeding v.8 speak of religious men using their authority (eg. Moses's seat) for self-engrandiosement and personal gain etc. It does not rule out their authority, but it points out their hypocrisy. The verses after v. 12 continue in this vein.

If any rabbi, bishop, or whoever behaves even today in such a manner then he too is guilty of this hypocrisy

I still have the feeling that Jesus wanted to emphasize the equality of men in his religious movement. And yet titles do create a gap. Am I wrong in such a conclusion?

The NT testifies to the equality of all before God, yet we all have different roles. Equal, but not the same. Just like ancient Israel.
 
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But יהושע called them near and said, "You know that the rulers of the gentiles are masters over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. "But it shall not be so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you, let him be your servant. "And whoever wishes to be first among you, let him be your servant, even as the Son of Aḏam did not come to be served, but to serve, 1and to give His life as a ransom for many." Footnote:1 See Mark 10:45 and Isa. 49:1-7.(Mat 20:25-28 The Scriptures 1998+)

And they came to Kephar Naḥum, and having come in the house He asked them, "What was it you disputed among yourselves on the way?" And they were silent, for on the way they had disputed with one another who was the greatest. And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wishes to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." And He took a little child and set him in their midst, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, "Whoever receives one of such little children in My Name receives Me. And whoever receives Me, receives not Me, but the One who sent Me."
(Mar 9:33-37 The Scriptures 1998+)
 
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