Was Mary the greatest woman that ever lived?

[PaladinValer]

Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus. Very simple. He existed before He was given a body of flesh and bones and this is where Mary comes into play. Before Jesus was given flesh and blood and bones Mary did not even know Him.

Don't they teach Incarnational theology anymore in Evangelical Protestant denominations at all?!

Jesus is the Incarnation of God the Son. Jesus never existed before the Incarnation, so of course St. Mary the ever-Virgin wouldn't have known Him.

God the Son existed for infinite time before He Incarnated and was given birth as Jesus. Now, He will spend the rest of eternity as Jesus.

In other words, God the Son always existed, but Jesus did not.

That's the Mystery of the Incarnation. THose who cannot accept this reject in their hearts the Nicene Creed.

Mary was adopted into the family of God just as everyone is by grace through faith. She did not mother God.. She motherd the son of God who became flesh to dwell among us.. Big difference.

This isn't Nicene Christianity. This is Nestorianism.

Not really for it takes all three to make up the Godhead, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Therefore Mary is the earthly mother to the only begotten son of God.

This is Sabellianism.

 

[Breckmin]

Like I said, I think we are bickering over semantics here. When I think of Mary
as Theotokos I don't think of this as saying "Mother of God." I think of Mary
as one who would bear God Incarnate or as the bearer of God incarnate in the
flesh.

I think "Mother of God" is confusing in the English because God/Jesus is the
Creator of all. You may wish to nitpick at this and say "God the Son was
Creator" and not Jesus...but to most Christians who believe in the Deity of
Christ - God the Son, the Son of God and Jesus or Yeshua are all three
synonymous.

Mary gave birth to God incarnate in the flesh...she did not give birth to
the pre-existing Christophanies of Christ in the O.T.

That is the problem here with saying Theotokos is dynamically equivalent
to "Mother of God" rather than "the bearer of God incarnate."

 

[Breckmin]

Seems to me that you are arguing from a POV of ignorance about Catholicism.

Clearly I disagree with Catholicism and their hyperdulia of Mary.

Also, we are discussing this in the English and NOT in the Greek or
Latin so there are issues of clarification and dynamic equivalence
that need to be addressed.

I don't like the phrase "Mother of God" in the English because I believe
it is misleading and an attempt to raise Mary to a higher title rather
than to *only* make the alleged clarification of Christ's Deity.

It is what happens in practice that I am concerned about.

We know Jesus was God. This does not mean we need to clarify
His Deity by claiming that Mary is the mother of God.

Don't you see the imperfections we are dealing with here in the
English when it comes to precision? and dynamic equivalence?

The more I discuss this...the more I am being talked out of an earlier
statement regarding the Rosary, however.

Clearly, if you could get atheists to say the Rosary then that would
be a good thing or at least a step in the right direction...but that does
not mean that the Rosary is the best form of a prayer.

Let me give you an example: Suppose I walked down the street
with a giant pink elephant that says "Jesus Loves You" and someone
gets saved...say a child? God used the pink elephant to reach the
child with the gospel, but does that mean that the best way to
evangelize is everyone walking down the street pink elephants that
say "Jesus Loves You?"

I compare this to the Rosary because I do not believe that the
Rosary should be recited over and over as a prayer.... The more
I think about it I am convinced of it. It would be religiosity to do
such a thing over and over..

You can be sincere..and still be missing the best way to pray.

Summary: The Rosary is NOT the best way to pray.

 

[boswd]

i'm starting to guess that this thread is actually a Bait and switch to go after Mary and the Catholics AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Breckmin]

What does God became man mean?

Emmanuel.

But there is a difference between saying (in the English) that Mary is
the Mother of "God among us" vs. saying that Mary is the mother of God.

Don't you see the imperfection of what is going on here?

You are claiming that Mother of God = Mother of Jesus who is God - but
then you say that Mary is NOT the Mother of God the Son who is God,
who preceeded Mary, etc. (or at least another Catholic claimed this)

In fact, the other person posting claimed that "God the Son is not exactly
equal to Jesus" which is also imperfect in the English and Christians often
use the Name Jesus to refer to His eternal pre-existence as Creator and
also appearances as Christophanies in the O.T.

There is much going on here that needs clarification...and claiming
"oh, this is just Nestorianism" when we don't agree with your precision
isn't constructive to English terminology and definition.

You can disagree with both Nestorius AND the Nicene Creed to a small
degree and claim that they BOTH may be possibly slightly off... or you
can claim you don't know who is correct - but you are willing to wait
until we get to heaven in order to find out just exactly how God will
explain the details of the Incarnation to us.

I can say that I don't know if the Nicene Creed got in perfect or not..
but they might be wrong about aspects of what Nestorius was referring
to because of imperfections.

No one is omniscient regarding the Incarnation and the Hypostatic Union
of Christ and His ontological essence.

Such is the claim of the ANT monotheist...

 

[Breckmin]

i'm starting to guess that this thread is actually a Bait and switch to go after Mary and the Catholics AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this happened, then you would have to look at providence and the
Sovereign will of God...because I certainly had no intention of doing this.

I wanted to discuss the fact that Protestants don't "dulia" Mary enough
BUT conviction is conviction.

If the Rosary is not the best way to pray then that is a specific.

You can still love and respect Mary and NOT pray the Rosary. You
can agree with much of the Rosary and NOT believe that reciting
pre-written prayers are the best way to pray.

 

[Breckmin]

Again you place yourself outside of orthodox Christianity

Orthodox Christianity is First Century NOT 4th Century.

I say this because - even though I agree with most all of the creeds
and councils in the 4th Century that are consistent with the Deity of
Christ, - I still believe that Christians believed Jesus was God without
having the clarifications and classic Trinitarian definitions of the Fourth
Century.

I agree with the apostle Paul and also with John. The logos became flesh
and dwelt among us.

No where is scripture is Mary referred to with the title of "Mother of God."

I believe I know what you mean....but I conclude that we need a better
description in the English in order to be more precise.

 

[jckstraw72]

she is called the Mother of my Lord in Luke, thats synonymous with Mother of God.

 

[PaladinValer]

Ecumenical Councils didn't declare new dogmas or doctrines, but clarified what had already been believed.

Nestorianism is dead wrong. St. Mary being the Mother of God is absolutely correct.

 

[narnia59]

We know Jesus was God. This does not mean we need to clarify
His Deity by claiming that Mary is the mother of God.

"We" who? Arius didn't, and convinced many of his time he was right, which certainly resulted in the need to clarify the Deity of Christ.

Many professing Christians today do not know either -- Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons come to mind. It would seem that the need to clarify His Deity does indeed still occur.

 

[narnia59]

If this happened, then you would have to look at providence and the
Sovereign will of God...because I certainly had no intention of doing this.

I wanted to discuss the fact that Protestants don't "dulia" Mary enough
BUT conviction is conviction.

If the Rosary is not the best way to pray then that is a specific.

You can still love and respect Mary and NOT pray the Rosary. You
can agree with much of the Rosary and NOT believe that reciting
pre-written prayers are the best way to pray.

There are many ways to pray. Qualifying them as 'best'? Don't know about that.

Have you ever prayed the psalms? They are pre-written prayers, written by the Holy Spirit for all of us when when we need comfort and strength. Sometimes when my mind is churning too much to settle into prayer I turn to the psalms and pray them, calming my spirit so I can enter into other forms of prayer.

And then there's those pesky angels, who seem to believe God is pleased with their chanting "Holy, Holy, Holy" 24x7. Silly them.

If prayer is truly personal communication with God, then it would seem to me there has to be some flexibility in what we as persons find to be "the best way" to pray and respect that, not try to define it for others.

 

[lionroar0]

If prayer is truly personal communication with God, then it would seem to me there has to be some flexibility in what we as persons find to be "the best way" to pray and respect that, not try to define it for others.

I agree. One thing that the Catholic Church has a wealth of is different styles of prayer available for a person.

 

[lionroar0]

Like I said, I think we are bickering over semantics here. When I think of Mary
as Theotokos I don't think of this as saying "Mother of God." I think of Mary
as one who would bear God Incarnate or as the bearer of God incarnate in the
flesh.

Being the Theotokos has the connotation of Mary being the Mother of God.
The bearer of John Doe is logically the mother of John Doe.

I think of Mary
as one who would bear God Incarnate or as the bearer of God incarnate in the

That's what Theotokos and Mary Mother of God mean.

I think "Mother of God" is confusing in the English because God/Jesus is the
Creator of all. You may wish to nitpick at this and say "God the Son was
Creator" and not Jesus...but to most Christians who believe in the Deity of
Christ - God the Son, the Son of God and Jesus or Yeshua are all three
synonymous.

God the Father is the Creator of all. Jesus was present during creation. Your post above just shows one reason why Mary was given the title of Theotokos, Mother of God. One reason being not to confuse the person's of the Trinity.

Mary gave birth to God incarnate in the flesh...she did not give birth to
the pre-existing Christophanies of Christ in the O.T.

Again your confusing creation(which happens out of nothing) to giving birth.
A mother giving birth does not create her child out of nothing.

Like wise Mary did not create the divinity nor the flesh of Jesus out nothing.

Mary gave birth to Jesus. The flesh of Jesus came from Mary and His divinity from God. She did then gave birth to Jesus who is God incarnate. Somehow the Holy Spirit took His divinity and united it to Mary's flesh.(If one wants to get more technical God's divinity united with Mary's egg.) Mary did not create Jesus out of thin air. She gave birth to Jesus.

That is the problem here with saying Theotokos is dynamically equivalent
to "Mother of God" rather than "the bearer of God incarnate."

All three are equivalent. I think it's you who is nitpicking.

 

[lionroar0]

Clearly I disagree with Catholicism and their hyperdulia of Mary.

Also, we are discussing this in the English and NOT in the Greek or
Latin so there are issues of clarification and dynamic equivalence
that need to be addressed.

I don't like the phrase "Mother of God" in the English because I believe
it is misleading and an attempt to raise Mary to a higher title rather
than to *only* make the alleged clarification of Christ's Deity.

That would be your misunderstanding of the title Mother of God which has already been explained several times. If you wish to mistakingly(sp?) believe that it's an attempt to raise Mary to a higher status, then you can continue to mistakingly believe that, because I do not think that I can change a believe.

It is what happens in practice that I am concerned about.

We know Jesus was God. This does not mean we need to clarify
His Deity by claiming that Mary is the mother of God.

Yet there are those back through the centuries(even now) that need to have that clarified, because the has a mistaken believe about who Jesus is.

Don't you see the imperfections we are dealing with here in the
English when it comes to precision? and dynamic equivalence?

Not really. Not when one knows that Mary being the Mother of God refers to Jesus being God.

The more I discuss this...the more I am being talked out of an earlier
statement regarding the Rosary, however.

Clearly, if you could get atheists to say the Rosary then that would
be a good thing or at least a step in the right direction...but that does
not mean that the Rosary is the best form of a prayer.

The best form of prayer is usually left up to an individual. As personal prayer is just that personal. Individually a Christian has to find their own best way to communicate with God.

Let me give you an example: Suppose I walked down the street
with a giant pink elephant that says "Jesus Loves You" and someone
gets saved...say a child? God used the pink elephant to reach the
child with the gospel, but does that mean that the best way to
evangelize is everyone walking down the street pink elephants that
say "Jesus Loves You?"

I compare this to the Rosary because I do not believe that the
Rosary should be recited over and over as a prayer.... The more
I think about it I am convinced of it. It would be religiosity to do
such a thing over and over..

You can be sincere..and still be missing the best way to pray.

Summary: The Rosary is NOT the best way to pray.

See my above post. There are individuals who would say it's the best prayer, because it's the best prayer for them. There are individuals who would say that compulsary(sp?)(prayer from the heart as you put it) is the best prayer, because it's the best prayer for them. There are those that would say reading and praying the Psalms are the best prayer, because it's the best prayer for them.

In other words its' best to let an individual decide what the best form of prayer is form themselves. Since prayer is communication with God and everyone communicates differently.

The Catholic Church has a wealth of different styles of prayer. Sometimes I find other churches try to lock down a person into one style of prayer.

 

[FineLinen25]

I have to say yes as well because she is the mother of JESUS! Of all the women from the time GOD our FATHER created the world untillnow, HE chose mary to give birth unto HIS only begotten SON. She must have been amazing

 

[lionroar0]

Emmanuel.

But there is a difference between saying (in the English) that Mary is
the Mother of "God among us" vs. saying that Mary is the mother of God.

Don't you see the imperfection of what is going on here?

You are claiming that Mother of God = Mother of Jesus who is God - but
then you say that Mary is NOT the Mother of God the Son who is God,
who preceeded Mary, etc. (or at least another Catholic claimed this)

Where have I stated that Mary is not the Mother of Jesus. I have repeatedly written and asserted that Mary Mother of God means that Mary is the Mother of Jesus who is God.

Please who me where I have denied the deity of Jesus.

In fact, the other person posting claimed that "God the Son is not exactly
equal to Jesus" which is also imperfect in the English and Christians often
use the Name Jesus to refer to His eternal pre-existence as Creator and
also appearances as Christophanies in the O.T.

Your going to have to quote the post(s), because I have no idea who this other person is.

There is much going on here that needs clarification...and claiming
"oh, this is just Nestorianism" when we don't agree with your precision
isn't constructive to English terminology and definition.

That's because it does not need to be redefined. It was defined by the one christian church guided by the Holy Spirit.

You can disagree with both Nestorius AND the Nicene Creed to a small
degree and claim that they BOTH may be possibly slightly off... or you
can claim you don't know who is correct - but you are willing to wait
until we get to heaven in order to find out just exactly how God will
explain the details of the Incarnation to us.

The Creed is correct. Nestorius was wrong.

I can say that I don't know if the Nicene Creed got in perfect or not..
but they might be wrong about aspects of what Nestorius was referring
to because of imperfections.

No one is omniscient regarding the Incarnation and the Hypostatic Union
of Christ and His ontological essence.

Your right but that's why we know that Mary gave birth to God, because God is eternal and it would be impossible to know everything about God. How ever when God chose to become like us. He became knowable to a point, because He is not only God but human and just like us humans he had a human mother who had with in herself God who is eternal.

Such is the claim of the ANT monotheist...

Never heard that one before.

 

[lionroar0]

Orthodox Christianity is First Century NOT 4th Century.

Orthodox Christianity is as the Eastern Orthodox say the faith once delivered onto the saints. Not a decision of when as a matter of time, because the Holy Spirit is in constant communication with the saints.

I say this because - even though I agree with most all of the creeds
and councils in the 4th Century that are consistent with the Deity of
Christ, - I still believe that Christians believed Jesus was God without
having the clarifications and classic Trinitarian definitions of the Fourth
Century.

The point of the Creed wasn't to correct that Jesus was God among those that held that believe but to correct those that didn't and to assure that the correct teaching of who Jesus is, would be protected against those that would argue otherwise through out the life of the Church. It was also to assure that the correct teaching of who Jesus is, would be taught through out the life of the Church.

I agree with the apostle Paul and also with John. The logos became flesh
and dwelt among us.

Good then there's something we can agree on.

No where is scripture is Mary referred to with the title of "Mother of God."

I believe I know what you mean....but I conclude that we need a better
description in the English in order to be more precise.

She is referred to the Mother or my Lord which is a synonym for God.

We don't need a better description is each person of the Trinity is fully God. Meaning that Jesus the second person of the Trinity is fully God.

 

[Senix]

Breckmin,

She certainly had the greatest honour - being the mother to the saviour of mankind, but whether she was the greatest woman? We are simply not told enough about her to come to any conclusions. She had faith and was willing to let God use her to achieve His purposes, but there have been other very faithful women even in our century. Mother Teresa, in my opinion, is about as close to being like God as I've ever seen in my entire life. On the righteous metre she'd be an 8, I'd be at a 4-5 for comparison purposes.

Only God knows, and from what He has told us, the person who helps out the least of his people will be among the greatest in heaven, and Mother Teresa has certainly done that.

As for Mary, she is dead. She has not been raised, but she's dead awaiting resurrection day with the rest of us when we kick it.

The problem isn't that Protestants don't show her enough respect, the problem is that Catholics and others show her too much respect that is undeserved. In fact, Jesus had the perfect chance to declare that Mary was indeed worthy of praise and adoration in Luke 11:27, but his response? Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it. She is not mentioned after the day of Pentecost, she is not given a prominent role or status by the Apostles, so why should we?

And no, she is not a new Eve. Two reasons: a. there is absolutely no Scriptural evidence of this; b. Eve isn't even mentioned in any regard to the fall of mankind. We sin in Adam's likeness, not in Eve's. It is through Adam's sin that sin and death have come to us all.

 

[jckstraw72]

bless you FineLinen!

 

[narnia59]

I agree. One thing that the Catholic Church has a wealth of is different styles of prayer available for a person.

And you don't have to choose just one.

We can pray in terms of simply conversing with God (do it all the time). I am not sure why people thing one form excludes the others.

But those 'canned' prayers -- a different effect. By speaking the words of another, especially the Holy Spirit, the prayer becomes less about 'me', and more about changing me. Our souls begin to conform to the words.