Was Mary the greatest woman that ever lived?

[jckstraw72]

i dont think there's anything wrong with seeing Mary as a sister in Christ, as long as we don't think that somehow makes her NOT the Mother of God.

 

[PaladinValer]

Mary is our sister in Christ. For we are adopted by the very same Father. Born is His Spirit and washed in the blood of the lamb.

The Bible and Tradition make it clear that we are co-inheritors with Christ.
That means that Christ is our Brother.
St. Mary the Theotokos is Christ's Mother.
Therefore, she is our Virgin Mother as well.

Therefore, all three agree: Scripture, Tradition, Reason.

God has spoken through all three the same thing. Why should we say otherwise?

 

[narnia59]

i dont think there's anything wrong with seeing Mary as a sister in Christ, as long as we don't think that somehow makes her NOT the Mother of God.

People quite often seem to create either/or situations from the reality of both/and.

 

[Breckmin]

And thus you place yourself outside of orthodox christianity.

When I said "I agree with everything except what is in bold.." I am
referring to atemporal existence of God. If you specified "Mary is the
Mother of God incarnate in the flesh" then perhaps we are approaching
a more clear understanding of what you are referring to and how you
are thinking about it. Clearly, Mary is NOT the mother of God the Father.
Clearly, Mary is NOT the mother of God the Holy Spirit. From a Christian
viewpoint, Mary is not the Mother of Christophonies which occurred
prior to Jesus' birth...or Theophanies which are believed to be the
pre-incarnate Christ (same thing).

Your wrong. The essence of God the Father is the same essence of God the Son, which is the same essence of God the Holy Spirit.

Yes. And Mary is NOT the mother of all three distinctions of God. Mary
is NOT the mother of the trinity...therefore by very logic...Mary is NOT
the mother of the Creator who needs no mother..

IF you specified that Mary is the mother of the baby/child/man that
God became incarnate to be (100% Man and 100% God) THEN I would
agree with you...but right now much of our disagreement is imperfect
semantics.

They can not be divided and say that Mary did not give birth to God.

It depends on what you mean when you say Mary gave birth to God.

Jesus is God in human flesh and Mary gave birth to Him...but that is
not the same thing as saying Mary gave birth to God the Son who
appeared in Christophanies in the O.T. and was the Creator of the
universe. You have to be more specific or Christians who employ
logic are going to disagree.

Can you point any where else in time where God chose to enter into time?

This is difficult to respond to for several reasons... I believe there is
a difference between being timeless and beyond the limitations of
time and space verses being "outside of time." These are two different
things. I believe time is infinite just as I believe that 3 dimensional
spatial existence is infinite...when God created "finite" existence.. we
(or all finitude existence) enter into God's infinite domain which is why
these two dimensions are clearly infinite when you examine them
mathematically.

So when you say "God chose to enter time" - I would say that it is
actually "we" who entered into infinite (or eternal for us) time. However,
when you address issues of the "temporal" I would say that God entered
into the temporal (imperfect in the English) at the burning bush when He
revealed Himself to Moses. I would say that the finite Theophanies and
Christophanies in the O.T. times were "entering into time" as you put it.

Now if you said "Can you point any where else in time where God chose
to become a Man?" I would say NO. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son
and the Only time God became a Man.

God chose Mary to be His mother in both His divinity and humanity.

This is a very ODD way of putting it. Clearly God the Father did not
choose Mary to be His mother...God the Father needs no mother.
Clearly, Mary is NOT the Mother of the pre-Incarnate appearances of
Christ. Clearly Mary is not the Mother of the God of Abraham who
existed long before Mary was born... Clearly, Mary is not the mother
of the Holy Spirit.

If you are going to make statements about Mary being the mother
of Jesus, I would suggest that you be more specific than to just say
"Mary is the mother of God." This is confusing and non-sequitar.

W/o Mary whom God chose there would be no church.

Are you saying that God could not have chosen a different woman?

Clearly He would not have and did not...but the point here is that w/o
God there would be no church. Without Jesus there would be no church.

You are putting WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on Mary here as some sort
of co-creator of the church.

Yes Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians.

This is clearly a misunderstanding of Mary's role....because you use
the word "spiritual." It is Jesus Christ ALONE Who is the Author and
Finisher of our Faith. If there was a spiritual mother it would be the
church, NOT a human woman. Unless you are going to assert something
else regarding Mary's humanity...this logic fails.

Whether they accept it or not. It's a historical Truth. Denying it will not make it go away.

Perhaps it is an issue of clarity and some misunderstandings of semantics.

There clearly seems to be quite a bit of "induction" going on here which
is how lies get spread. Perhaps the universal church is guilty of this...

Perhaps they have taken their eyes off of Jesus...and mistakenly put
them on the precious mother of Jesus. Mary would NOT want you to do
this.

 

[Breckmin]

Mary being the Bride of Christ is a devotional title.

It is understood within the context of a new Adam and Eve then I can
understand the symbolism...but it is still incomplete since the whole
church is the bride of Christ...and Mary is part of the church.

Jesus is the bridegroom to the church. The church is His bride..not
just Mary.

It's also symbolic of her being the Mother of the Church.

Why does the church need a mother, again? Please be specific.

Eve had no mother, for the record....God was Eve's only parent..her
Heavenly Father. Why does the church somehow "need a mother?"

Who would be guilty of inducing Mary as the mother of the church
rather than being part of it??? Is this taken from scripture when Jesus
was talking to John while He was on the Cross? That is the only time
I could see such an induction...

Clearly an induction of large proportion to take Mary being under John's
care to the mother of all the disciples...or mother to the whole church
of millions of believers...

This has all of the indicators of false teaching. I'm not saying that it
is, exactly. I am saying that the RED FLAG is up because of the
methodology in arriving at such a conclusion is the same way in which
many lies are spread.

As she again was chosen by God to give birth to Jesus. .

Did Jesus exist before Mary gave birth to Him?

 

[Breckmin]

Just as all christians should be pointing to Jesus and not themselves.

Just as all Christians should be point to Jesus and not Mary...

I believe that John the Baptist was the greatest who ever lived
according to Jesus (perhaps at that time..but I know of no one
since who had more humility). We do NOT point to John the
Baptist...neither should we point to Mary.

 

[Breckmin]

Imagine if I said a prayer that had 10 times "Hail John the Baptist...the Lord
was with thee.. there was none greater except Jesus, etc."

Imagine 10 Hail John the Baptists....

I can take my position for scripture and the words of Jesus..

Would John the Baptist want this????

Neither would Mary.

 

[boswd]

well Hail John Baptist the Lord is with thee is not in scripture.

Hail Mary is

 

[boswd]

but on the subject of Mary being called Mothe of God/Theotokos

wikipedia does a nice job explaining it.

Theotokos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In short it was affirmed at the 3rd Council of the early Christians (back when the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church were one) to reinforce Jesus's divinity and of The Trinity. As Nestorianism was being battled which seperated Chris't humanity and his divinity.

 

[boswd]

Just as all Christians should be point to Jesus and not Mary...

I believe that John the Baptist was the greatest who ever lived
according to Jesus (perhaps at that time..but I know of no one
since who had more humility). We do NOT point to John the
Baptist...neither should we point to Mary.

I grew up in a household where one side of the family is Catholic so I have a pretty good idea on the views of Mary.
What you and others see on the surface is heavy emphasis on Mary and it looks to you as if they are looking to her instead of Jesus. Such is not the case quite opposite actually. Think of it like this, many Christians look to their Pastor or other Spiritual leaders to help guide them on their journey with Christ. Catholics do this with Mary. They look to her to help them guide them to her son our Savior. When you really study their Mariology it will surprise you on how Christ centered it really is.

 

[lionroar0]

i dont think there's anything wrong with seeing Mary as a sister in Christ, as long as we don't think that somehow makes her NOT the Mother of God.

I was thinking along the same lines.

 

[lionroar0]

When I said "I agree with everything except what is in bold.." I am
referring to atemporal existence of God. If you specified "Mary is the
Mother of God incarnate in the flesh" then perhaps we are approaching
a more clear understanding of what you are referring to and how you
are thinking about it. Clearly, Mary is NOT the mother of God the Father.
Clearly, Mary is NOT the mother of God the Holy Spirit. From a Christian
viewpoint, Mary is not the Mother of Christophonies which occurred
prior to Jesus' birth...or Theophanies which are believed to be the
pre-incarnate Christ (same thing).

Of course not but She is still the Mother of God. Mary being the Mother of God makes it clear that Jesus is God.

Yes. And Mary is NOT the mother of all three distinctions of God. Mary
is NOT the mother of the trinity...therefore by very logic...Mary is NOT
the mother of the Creator who needs no mother..

Mary is not the Mother of the 2 out of three persons of God. She is the Mother of the second person of the Trinity who is Jesus who is God. Therefore She is the Mother of God.

IF you specified that Mary is the mother of the baby/child/man that
God became incarnate to be (100% Man and 100% God) THEN I would
agree with you...but right now much of our disagreement is imperfect
semantics.

Mary is the Mother God. Again you place yourself outside of orthodox Christianity. It has always been taught that Mary is the Mother of God. Meaning that she is the Mother of Jesus who is God. Therefore She is the Mother of God.

It seems that the your confused as to what the title means. It does not mean that She is the Mother of the Father. It does not mean that She's the Mother of the Holy Spirit, nor the Mother of the Trinity.

It means that She's the Mother of Jesus who is God.

Why are you confused?

It depends on what you mean when you say Mary gave birth to God.

Jesus is God in human flesh and Mary gave birth to Him...but that is
not the same thing as saying Mary gave birth to God the Son who
appeared in Christophanies in the O.T. and was the Creator of the
universe. You have to be more specific or Christians who employ
logic are going to disagree.

See above. It seems to me that you have a problem with orthodox Christianity. As the logic behind the title Mary Mother of God has been explained. Your logic makes room for non-orthodox Christianity. It makes room for people to deny the divinity of Jesus.

This is difficult to respond to for several reasons... I believe there is
a difference between being timeless and beyond the limitations of
time and space verses being "outside of time." These are two different
things. I believe time is infinite just as I believe that 3 dimensional
spatial existence is infinite...when God created "finite" existence.. we
(or all finitude existence) enter into God's infinite domain which is why
these two dimensions are clearly infinite when you examine them
mathematically.

So when you say "God chose to enter time" - I would say that it is
actually "we" who entered into infinite (or eternal for us) time. However,
when you address issues of the "temporal" I would say that God entered
into the temporal (imperfect in the English) at the burning bush when He
revealed Himself to Moses. I would say that the finite Theophanies and
Christophanies in the O.T. times were "entering into time" as you put it.

Now if you said "Can you point any where else in time where God chose
to become a Man?" I would say NO. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son
and the Only time God became a Man.

What does God became man mean?

This is a very ODD way of putting it. Clearly God the Father did not
choose Mary to be His mother...God the Father needs no mother.
Clearly, Mary is NOT the Mother of the pre-Incarnate appearances of
Christ. Clearly Mary is not the Mother of the God of Abraham who
existed long before Mary was born... Clearly, Mary is not the mother
of the Holy Spirit.

If you are going to make statements about Mary being the mother
of Jesus, I would suggest that you be more specific than to just say
"Mary is the mother of God." This is confusing and non-sequitar.

Your confusing Mother with creator.

A Mother does not create their child. They give birth to the child. Was Mary Mother of the Father no. Is Mary Mother of the Holy Spirit no. Mary is the Mother of Jesus who is of the same divinity of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Thus she is Mother of God. Saying that Mary is the Mother of God is Truth. It is not a non-sequitur, nor is it confusing but I guess it would be to those that are placing themselves outside of orthodox Christianity.

Are you saying that God could not have chosen a different woman?

Clearly He would not have and did not...but the point here is that w/o
God there would be no church. Without Jesus there would be no church.

You are putting WAY TOO MUCH emphasis on Mary here as some sort
of co-creator of the church.

I plainly stated that God chose Mary to be the Mother of Jesus. Where did I deny that God was involved?

Take away either God, Jesus, Mary and the Holy Spirit and there would be no Church. As the humanity of Jesus came from Mary. This is the fulfillment of prophecy. God's plan.

She mediated for everyone in the creation of the Church when she gave birth to Jesus.

 

[lionroar0]

This is clearly a misunderstanding of Mary's role....because you use
the word "spiritual." It is Jesus Christ ALONE Who is the Author and
Finisher of our Faith. If there was a spiritual mother it would be the
church, NOT a human woman. Unless you are going to assert something
else regarding Mary's humanity...this logic fails.

No it is not a misunderstand of her role. She's the spiritual Mother of Christians, because she gave birth to Jesus. Her faith was objectified when she said yes to God and gave birth to Jesus. Her heart was pierced and the thoughts of many was made known to her. She was there when Christ died. We look to her as one looks to a pastor for spiritual guidance, because God is God of the living not of the dead. Seems to me that God knew what He was doing when he chose Mary to be the Mother of Jesus. He chose someone who had a very strong faith.

Perhaps it is an issue of clarity and some misunderstandings of semantics.

There clearly seems to be quite a bit of "induction" going on here which
is how lies get spread. Perhaps the universal church is guilty of this...

Perhaps they have taken their eyes off of Jesus...and mistakenly put
them on the precious mother of Jesus. Mary would NOT want you to do
this.

Here you go again jumping to conclusions. Where in our discussion has Mary being put above God?

It is understood within the context of a new Adam and Eve then I can
understand the symbolism...but it is still incomplete since the whole
church is the bride of Christ...and Mary is part of the church.

Jesus is the bridegroom to the church. The church is His bride..not
just Mary.

It was never stated as an either or nor scenario. Also when knowing that Mary is also a symbol for the Church and both symbols are used interchangeably(sp?) It is understood that the Church is the Bride of Christ.

Why does the church need a mother, again? Please be specific.

Eve had no mother, for the record....God was Eve's only parent..her
Heavenly Father. Why does the church somehow "need a mother?"

Who would be guilty of inducing Mary as the mother of the church
rather than being part of it??? Is this taken from scripture when Jesus
was talking to John while He was on the Cross? That is the only time
I could see such an induction...

Clearly an induction of large proportion to take Mary being under John's
care to the mother of all the disciples...or mother to the whole church
of millions of believers...

This has all of the indicators of false teaching. I'm not saying that it
is, exactly. I am saying that the RED FLAG is up because of the
methodology in arriving at such a conclusion is the same way in which
many lies are spread.

Eve had God the Father but her alone does not make a Church. A Church is a community. After Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden they had children. Who had other children and so on and so forth.

Why does the Church need a mother? Because the Church did not start through mitosis. It started with the birth of someone and for there to be a birth there needs to be a mother and a father.

It is taken from Scripture when the Holy Spirit overshawdowed(sp?) her and by the power of the Holy Spirit she conceived a Son.

Seems to me that you are arguing from a POV of ignorance about Catholicism.

Did Jesus exist before Mary gave birth to Him?

Yes but not fully revealed as the 2 person of the Trinity. Who is Jesus, who is both fully human and divine. Jesus who is God. Who was born of the Virgin Mary. Thus Mary is the Mother of God.

Just as all Christians should be point to Jesus and not Mary...

I believe that John the Baptist was the greatest who ever lived
according to Jesus (perhaps at that time..but I know of no one
since who had more humility). We do NOT point to John the
Baptist...neither should we point to Mary.

non sequitor. Where in my post have I wrote that Christians should point to Mary and not Jesus?

What I posted was that Mary points to Jesus as all Christians should.

Imagine if I said a prayer that had 10 times "Hail John the Baptist...the Lord
was with thee.. there was none greater except Jesus, etc."

Imagine 10 Hail John the Baptists....

I can take my position for scripture and the words of Jesus..

Would John the Baptist want this????

Neither would Mary.

Except that the Hail Mary is in Scripture and Hail John the Baptist isn't.

The whole prayer goes like this;

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

The prayer is asking Mary to pray for us.

I don't know of any Christian who would not pray for others when asked. I'm positive that Mary being the Mother of God would pray for us just as any Christian would pray for us when asked.

 

[MamaZ]

Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus. Very simple. He existed before He was given a body of flesh and bones and this is where Mary comes into play. Before Jesus was given flesh and blood and bones Mary did not even know Him. Mary was adopted into the family of God just as everyone is by grace through faith. She did not mother God.. She motherd the son of God who became flesh to dwell among us.. Big difference.

 

[lionroar0]

Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus. Very simple. He existed before He was given a body of flesh and bones and this is where Mary comes into play. Before Jesus was given flesh and blood and bones Mary did not even know Him. Mary was adopted into the family of God just as everyone is by grace through faith. She did not mother God.. She motherd the son of God who became flesh to dwell among us.. Big difference.

Yes it's very simple.

Jesus is God. Mary gave birth to Jesus, who is God. Therefore She is the Mother of God.

Anything else is not orthodox Christianity.

 

[narnia59]

Mary is the earthly mother of Jesus. Very simple. He existed before He was given a body of flesh and bones and this is where Mary comes into play. Before Jesus was given flesh and blood and bones Mary did not even know Him. Mary was adopted into the family of God just as everyone is by grace through faith. She did not mother God.. She motherd the son of God who became flesh to dwell among us.. Big difference.

It's only a big difference if you believe the son of God who became flesh to dwell among us isn't God.

 

[MamaZ]

It's only a big difference if you believe the son of God who became flesh to dwell among us isn't God.

Not really for it takes all three to make up the Godhead, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Therefore Mary is the earthly mother to the only begotten son of God.

 

[jckstraw72]

you just said it! you just said she is mother to the Son of God ... Who is God!

 

[boswd]

anything else Nestorianism

 

[narnia59]

Not really for it takes all three to make up the Godhead, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Therefore Mary is the earthly mother to the only begotten son of God.

Yet each person of the Trinity is fully and completely God, not one-third of God.