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The Holocene Deniers

thaumaturgy

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The standard deviation measures the variance. To be within a 95% confidence interval of some conclusion one must be below 3 standard deviations.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I want to illustrate the point for Glenn that I established mathematically in an earlier post about the difference between the 95% confidence interval on the mean and a standard deviation:

distn.JPG


The purple lines are about 1 standard deviation on this data

the actual std dev calculated was 4.95

the 95% Confidence Interval on the mean is + 0.31

the mean is 30.05

(N = 1000)
 
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grmorton

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Gracchus, good question. This would be an interesting calculation.

Once again it merely shows that you have not looked critically at this issue. YOu could have found it if you would have but read some of the links I sent you to. You come out with all your play models which don't match reality and then go Voila, no problem. But you, as the above agreement about the quality of the stations shows, haven't seriously investigated this area. Here again is what the siting book says.

Class 1 – Flat and horizontal ground surrounded by a clear surface with a slope below 1/3
(<19º). Grass/low vegetation ground cover <10 centimeters high. Sensors located at
least 100 meters from artificial heating or reflecting surfaces, such as buildings, concrete
surfaces, and parking lots. Far from large bodies of water, except if it is representative of
the area, and then located at least 100 meters away. No shading when the sun elevation
>3 degrees.
http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/uscrn/documentation/program/X030FullDocumentD0.pdf



But something I've been thinking about lately is: is the heat from the AC unit (or some other mechanical heat source) an "additive" or does it sort of "buffer" the temperature around it such that it doesn't simply add onto the temperature. If the temp of the regular, un-air conditioned surroundings is, say, 20[sup]o[/sup] and the temperature of the AC unit's surroundings is actually 50[sup]o[/sup] the temperature at the thermometer doesn't read 70[sup]o[/sup], it should read 50[sup]o[/sup].

You are seriously even asking this question? Clearly you know no physics. My god no wonder why I am having problems convincing you that air conditioners are a problem.

Temperature is NOT additive (at least you arrived at the correct conclusion but the fact that you were tryng to figure it out shows your lack of knowledge of physics. I knew it because I know that statistical physics isn't the same kind of statistics as you are familiar with in statistics.

Here is the the way heat works. There is a thing called heat capacity of every material. Air has one heat capacity, metal another value etc. If the un air conditioned air is at 20 deg and the heat source is 108 deg (as I once actually measured), then the final temperature of the air depends not on the temperature of the heat source but on the rate of heat energy emitted into the air by the heat source and the heat capacity of the air and the rate at which the heat is carried away by the wind and via radiation. But the end of the process is that the temperature will be somewhere between the 108 and the 20. The exact value depends on all the variables and on the distance away from the heat source.

[Again, the AC unit isn't running all the time, so it must be a moderated impact but an overall positive bias until surrounding temperatures are actually higher than the AC unit at which point it should read the higher temp.

But in the end, as has been pointed out: the overall averaged trend is the key and that averaging (gridded averaging) should tend to be less impacted by a few bad gauges. Unless, of course we are talking about AIR CONDITIONER COUNTY, OKLAHOMA where there are AC units every square meter of landspace for hundreds of miles and it is impossible to get a real data point.

I wish there were a bang your head against a wall smilie here. Do you know what an MMTS is? It is a tool to measure the MAXIMUM and MINIMUM temperature during the day. Now, If the AC runs for only 5 minutes, it can create a maximum temperature which will be measured. That maximum may be the same as if the AC ran 5 hours. The maximum temperature is not very sensitive to the length of time that the AC runs.

Physics illiteracy is very widespread.
 
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grmorton

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I just want to take a sec and give mad props to the word "risible" in general. It is a word we Americans use far too infrequently yet one of the coolest words in the English language.

But on the topic of Wegner, might I jump in here as a "recovering geologist" and throw in my two cents to say that if Wegner's hypothesis had been immediately accepted wouldn't it have been strange?


Yes, new concepts always require a fight--including the new concept that AGW might be nutso. I have studied anthropology quite extensively. I love this passage because it tells how suicidally stupid societies can be. And everytime I think of AGW I think of pigs and fish.

"Remember that Tasmania used to be joined to the southern Australian mainland at Pleistocene times of low sea level, until the land bridge was severed by rising sea level 12,000 years ago. People walked out to Tasmania tens of thousands of years ago, when it was still part of Australia. Once that land bridge was severed, though, there was absolutely no further contact of Tasmanians with mainland Australians or with any other people until the Dutch explorer Abel Tasman arrived in 1642, because both Tasmanians and mainland Australians lacked watercraft capable of crossing those 130-mile straits between Tasmania and Australia. Tasmanian history is thus a study of human isolation unprecedented except in science fiction—namely, complete isolation from all other humans for 12,000 years."

"If all those technologies that I mentioned, absent from Tasmania but present on the opposite Australian mainland, were invented by Australians within the last 12,000 years, we can surely conclude that the Tasmanians did not invent them independently. Astonishingly, the archaeological record demonstrates something further: Tasmanians actually abandoned some technologies that they brought with them from Australia and that persisted on the Australian mainland. For example, bone tools and the practice of fishing were both present in Tasmania at the time that the land bridge was severed, and both disappeared from Tasmania around 1500 B.C. That represents the loss of valuable technologies: fish could have been smoked to provide a winter food supply, and bone needles could have bene used to sew warm clothes. What sense can we make of these cultural losses?"

"The only interpretation that makes sense to me goes as follows. All human societies go through fads in which they temporarily either adopt practices of little use or else abandon practices of considerable use. For example, there are several instances of people on Pacific islands suddenly deciding to taboo and kill off all of their pigs, even though pigs are their only big edible land mammal! Eventually, those Pacific islanders realize that pigs are useful after all, and they import a new breeding stock from another island." Jared Diamond, "The Evolution of Guns and Germs," in Evolution: Society, Science and the Universe, ed by A. C. Fabian, (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1998), p. 60
of course the Tasmanians couldn’t import technology because they lost their ability to build boats.

The above is what I think of when I think of the modern society trying to kill off its energy supply because of an irrational fear of CO2. Energy was the thing that eventually killed off slavery and brought our standard of living to the level it is at. And the AGW crowd wants us to do away with it--they do this by fighting against any new energy supplies.



Obviously any new hypothesis, especially one as dramatic as "Continental Drift" would require extraordinary proof. So the fact that Wegner was or wasn't immediately greeted as a victor early on would seem not to matter one way or another.

The weakness of Wegener's mechanism for drift was his problem. But that problem didn't erase the geological observational data of former land connections. This is like your statistics of play models that don't match reality. They don't erase the data that 1. NOAA adds 1/3 of a degree TREND merely by their 'correction' factors and 2. that air conditioners and other heat sources are all next to far too many thermometers.

And that's what we've all been going on about here, isn't it? That concensuses don't matter in the face of the science, but just because a concensus exists doesn't mean that it is necessarily suspect.

No, it doesn't mean it is necessarily suspect. But it doesn't mean that it is automatically exempt from criticism and doubt--ONLY RELIGIONS AND POLICTICAL PARTIES demand no doubt.

For instance there is now a general "concensus" around Plate Tectonics, does that mean we should automatically assume it is amazingly suspect?

If there were data against it then it would be right to do the scientific thing and examine it again. I know of no data against it.

(*and I actually had a teacher in undergrad who expressed skepticism about some factors of plate tectonics but I never heard specifically what his issues were.)

The only thing I know of is that the observed motion in the mantle doesn't fit the Bernard Convection cell geometry. So, like Wegener, our mechanism for drift may need some correction. But it is really hard to deny the fit of geologic layers across continents now separated by thousands of miles.

It wasn't until, what, 20 some odd years after his death that paleomagnetic surveys started providing additional lines of evidence and finally ultimately a mechanistic understanding later on.

It was more like 30 years.

In a sense, the current AGW hypothesis not only contains a mechanism but has models which appear to support the mechanistic explanation.

I have told you that I am involved in model making for oil field reservoirs. I used to be in charge of it for Kerr-McGee but now that I have retired I merely do it. But a model can look really grand but because the knowledge of the details are too poorly known, the field behaves totally differently than the model predicts. It is this weakness in the model's that is most problematic. We can't test any of the current models for 50 years. We don't know if any of them are right.

I also remember looking at Jody Dillow's vapor canopy model which had been written by John Baumgardner. Looking over the code I found that this one dimensional model of radiative heat flow in the atmosphere sent heat 'north' and thus during every iteration of the program it leaked energy out of the system which was never accounted for again. The model predicted that Henry Morris' vapor canopy would have a cool earth. All the radiative physics was right but that one leak off of energy gave the answer Jody and John wanted. It was a very nice model but totally crap.

Now, global climate models can't handle clouds. The grid size of current GCM's is about 50 km x 50 km. Clouds happen on 5x5 or 10x10 grid size levels. That GCMs can't handle clouds correctly means you can't trust the models implicitly. They might be right but they might be very very wrong.
 
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grmorton

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grmorton,

So you would agree that the trend since 1980 is *not* affected by the airconditioner?

No. Why? Because when I went to China in 1994 for the first time, it was the beginning of China's air conditioner boom. When I was there at that time, everyone was outside on the streets at night--bands on the street. It was too hot in the apartments for people to spend the summer nights sweating inside. WHen I returned to live there in 2005 almost all had air conditioning and the streets at night were quite different--only the ladies of the night were out in force. So, China, India Russia, Brazil are still increasing their energy use.

Secondly, the amount of energy used per household has continued to increase from the 1980s to the present. So, the heat emitted by a house or the heat emitted by air conditioners is greater today than it was in 1980--which also will add a tilt.

And finally, why don't you address the NOAA chart showing merely the heat added by their editing. I keep posting that but no one seems to even understand that this is not observed heat, it is merely that put into the record by the judgement of the GISS.

ts.ushcn_anom25_diffs_urb-raw_pg.gif


Why do you think that each year requires the editors to add more heat to the record than was observed and add more than was added in the previous year? Doesn't that bother anyone?

Apparently it won't since people seriously thought temperature might be additive.
 
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grmorton

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Further, in the temperature data for that particular station was there a step change at 1980?


I am not sure what station you are referring to, but station moves often make a couple of degrees difference in the thermometer out put. LA used to have record temperature after record temperature. The thermometer was on the roof of a parking lot. When they moved it across the street to a park with grass, they stopped having record temperatures.

How not to measure temperature, part 54: Los Angeles, the city Watts Up With That?

ladwp_north_aerialview-520.jpg


In the chart below the blue marks when they moved the station.

losangeles_giss_plot-520.png


And here is the thing, not all station moves are marked on the records. Some moves make it hotter some cooler, but in an increasingly cemented world, the over all has to be towards hotter locations, like rooftops etc.

Of course, most of the people here wouldn't dare look at contradictory data to what they believe. This may or may not be true of you. Time will tell.
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/losangeles_giss_plot-520.png
 
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grmorton

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GHCN Global Gridded Data

Regarding the graph that you posted earlier, the above is the link it was taken from. As the material explains, the reason that the raw data is different from the processed data is that the data is processed to remove problems caused by re-siting of stations, the urban heat island effect (which would include some of the air conditioners that you are so fond of. :)) and other issues. It is so that like can be compared with like.

There is nothing sinister in this, nothing anti-scientific and nothing in it that suggests that the data is rubbish. They explain their methodology and rationale. If you may certainly disagree with either. However, the chart that you posted does not support your arguments and does not show anything wrong with the data.

If you can come up with reasons to dispute their methodology, I would be happy to hear about them.


Yes there is, they tilt the trend to make cooling stations appear hotter. Where do you think they get this additional 0.3 deg C trend added by the editors from?
 
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grmorton

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You left a bit out.


You asked specifically what made for a good station. I posted that.

"2.2.1 Classification for Temperature/Humidity
Class 1
– Flat and horizontal ground surrounded by a clear surface with a slope below 1/3
(<19º). Grass/low vegetation ground cover <10 centimeters high. Sensors located at
least 100 meters from artificial heating or reflecting surfaces, such as buildings, concrete
surfaces, and parking lots. Far from large bodies of water, except if it is representative of
the area, and then located at least 100 meters away. No shading when the sun elevation
>3 degrees.
Class 2
– Same as Class 1 with the following differences. Surrounding Vegetation <25
centimeters. Artificial heating sources within 30m. No shading for a sun elevation >5º.
Class 3
(error 1ºC) – Same as Class 2, except no artificial heating sources within 10
meters.
Class 4
(error &#8805; 2ºC) – Artificial heating sources <10 meters.
Class 5
(error &#8805; 5ºC) – Temperature sensor located next to/above an artificial heating
source, such a building, roof top, parking lot, or concrete surface."

In short, they are aware of the problematic placements. They take it into consideration. (Thanks for the link!)[/quote]

No they don't take it into consideration. They put all these thermometers next to heat sources. If they took it into consideration, they would site the thermometers elsewhere. See the effect of merely moving from a parking lot roof to a small grassy plot of ground across the street. It is why I asked the question earlier. If you have one thermometer to place in a city to measure the temperature for global warming, where do you pick? Below is Atlanta's urban heat island maps which shows temperature variations of 15 deg F within a few hundred yards.

Atlanta%20micro-climates-2.gif


Where you put that thermometer alters the output.


So your point is that man's activities have caused the warming? I thought you were arguing against that point of view!

You are being obtuse. I am arguing AGAINST the idea that soley CO2 is responsible for the claimed warming. I am arguing that the real warming is much less, and I am arguing that even if I am wrong in those, the world has seen much worse CO2 concentrations and nothing happened to it. It isn't something to panic the world about--save for political reasons.

That is the point. We are screwing up the climate.

Bull roar. We are not outside of the natural variation in climate seen in the geologic record--the near geologic record.

I don’t miss the point. There are lots of factors that enter into the mix. The increased temperature releases methane, an even more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2, and increases water vapor, which is also a greenhouse gas. The increase in temperature leads to greater use of air conditioners. That leads to greater AGW.

You clearly don't pay attention. I have several times mentioned that 5000 years ago, the permafrost was melted, trees grew on the ARctic plain and all that methane that was there at that time, was leaked into the atmosphere. Nothing happened to the world--at least nothing disastrous.

Since that time the world has cooled.
"The migration of trees into the region is expressed at our site by the macrofossil pattern of larch (Larix siberica) and birch (Betula pubescens) arrival, followed by spruce (Picea obovata). About six thousand years ago, spruce trees moved even further northward. Climate at that time was warmer than today. Since that time, however, the treeline retreated to its present position, and tundra replaced the old trees. The redevelopment and spread of peatland resulted in increases in moisture and acidity. This vast spread of tundra within the last few millennia indicates that climate cooled after the mid-Holocene warming." "The Ancient Treeline and the Carbon Cycle in the Siberian Arctic"
NASA GISS: Science Briefs: The Ancient Treeline and the Carbon Cycle in the Siberian Arctic

Moreover, the climatologists say that the change is faster than they first thought and accelerating. I haven’t milled out the stats, but the experts have. I am sure you are a very smart fellow, but you are not a climatologist.

Yeah, they are adding 0.3 degrees of the warming in their labs.


ts.ushcn_anom25_diffs_urb-raw_pg.gif


For some reason I can't get across to you all 40% of the warming is merely 'statistical editing' NOAA admits it in this chart. Stop them from doing this, and you will fix most of the fear.

BTW I have asked but never got an answer, why is it that today's modern thermometers which are preferentially next to air conditioners measuring too cold a temperature according to GISS and thus in need of an additional 0.3 deg C uplift above the observed data????
 
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thaumaturgy

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Yeah, I heard of and took a couple of courses in it. But, it isn't statistics that tells you the joule heating.

But it surely is applicable when part of the conduction of the heat from the transformer to the thermometer is via the air molecules in between.

Statistical thermodynamics ties the molecular to the bulk properties of the gas using probability theory.

(LINK1, LINK2)

So in a sense, statistical thermo is the mechanistic basis for how at least the convection portion of the heating takes place.

Physics knowledge doesn't seem to be your strong suit. For your info, Statistical thermo has to do with collections of particles, like atoms flying around in an atmosphere.

QED. Unless the photo you showed was of a transformer and thermometer set in the vaccuum of space, there's air between there. Air is made of molecules which move around (it's a gas), and indeed we are talking about the distribution of energy in a population.

Joule heating is i^2 x R where i is the current and R is the resistance.

And it applies to the TRANSFORMER. The heat has to get from the TRANSFORMER TO THE THERMOMETER in order to affect the temperature value recorded by said thermometer.

Sheesh, Thau, you should be more knowledgeable than that.

At least I recognize there's air between the transformer and the thermometer.
 
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grmorton

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But it surely is applicable when part of the conduction of the heat from the transformer to the thermometer is via the air molecules in between.

Most is radiative, but yes, there is some that is via air.

a sense, statistical thermo is the mechanistic basis for how at least the convection portion of the heating takes place.

One can derive thermal convection without a single reference to statistics, just using physics. Hint: it involves density.

Somehow you have come to the mistaken view in life that all science is statistics. That is about as silly a position as one can take. It is like an ancient greek philosopher, who thought that all matter was really water.



QED. Unless the photo you showed was of a transformer and thermometer set in the vaccuum of space, there's air between there. Air is made of molecules which move around (it's a gas), and indeed we are talking about the distribution of energy in a population.

Shoot Thau, I could find an MMTS next to an open flame and it wouldn't bother you at all. Nothing will.

I really haven't mentioned why they want buildings to be 100 meters away. It is because of the radiative heat flow. Below is a picture of an MMTS near some buildings.
The picture is pretty.

weatherBanner_Elk_overall_looking_SWNorthCarolina1.jpg



Here is a picture of the IR temperature from the roof of the house in the back. 35 deg C is about 95 degrees.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/weatherBanner_Elk_IR_looking_SW_NorthCarolina.jpg
weatherBanner_Elk_IR_looking_SW_NorthCarolina.jpg



And it applies to the TRANSFORMER. The heat has to get from the TRANSFORMER TO THE THERMOMETER in order to affect the temperature value recorded by said thermometer.

radiation does it and it does it very very quickly.

At least I recognize there's air between the transformer and the thermometer.

Thau, frankly you keep showing that you know nothing about physics yet you are so utterly certain that your understanding of AGW is correct. You shouldn't be so certain.
 
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thaumaturgy

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I'm kind of bumping this topic (from some previous posts) because I find it interesting. I would very much like Glenn to respond (since he didn't when I posted it earlier):

[FONT=&quot]
Signal?????? Sheesh, you and I have had this discussion before. The standard deviation measures the variance. To be within a 95% confidence interval of some conclusion one must be below 3 standard deviations.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]You are factually incorrect here. Glenn, let's go over it one more time.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The 95% confidence interval IS NOT THE SAME AS THE 95% POPULATION area.95% of the population in a normal distribution will be within 2 standard deviations but that is not the same as the 95% confidence interval on the mean.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is intro stats.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Again:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]the 95% confidence interval on the mean is equal to:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]mean+1.96*s/sqrt(N)[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]where:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]s = standard deviation[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]sqrt(N) = square root of the number of samples[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1.96 is the z-statistic value applicable for populations, but the t-statistic value can be used based on the number of degrees of freedom)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ERGO: (if you cfollow the math) if you have more than 4 or 5 data points since the number of samples is in the denominator then the 95% confidence interval will be SMALLER THAN 1 STANDARD DEVIAION.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That's simply the math.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here's a link to describe the confidence interval for you in case you don't want to take my word for it: LINK = 1.3.5.2. Confidence Limits for the Mean[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Not to put too fine a point on it, I want to illustrate the point about the difference between the 95% confidence interval on the mean and a standard deviation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
distn.JPG
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The purple lines are about 1 standard deviation on this data [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]the actual std dev calculated was[/FONT][FONT=&quot]4.95[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]the 95% Confidence Interval on the mean is [/FONT][FONT=&quot]+[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 0.31 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]the mean is 30.05 [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](N = 1000)[/quote][/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
grmorton said:
The standard deviation of most pair wise comparisons of the temperature differences between two closely spaced towns is in the neighborhood of 3-4 degrees. Lets use 3. Thus to claim that the world/US or county has changed one must have an SD less than 1/3 of the asserted temperature change to be above the noise level.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]What statistics book are you working from?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Why don't you try a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]t-test[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for a comparison of means? This is a very common intro statistic.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here's the t-test format:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]t = (Mean[sub]1[/sub] - Mean[sub]2[/sub])/s[sub]mean1-mean2[/sub][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]where[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]s[sub]mean1-mean2[/sub] is the standard error of the difference between the means. It itself is:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]s[sub]mean1-mean2[/sub] = sqrt{((N[sub]1[/sub]s[sub]1[/sub][sup]2[/sup] + N[sub]2[/sub]s[sub]2[/sub][sup]2[/sup])/(N[sub]1[/sub]+N[sub]2[/sub]-2))*((N[sub]1[/sub]+N[sub]2[/sub])/N[sub]1[/sub]N[sub]2[/sub]))}[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]N= number of samples[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]s= standard deviation[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you would like to learn more about statistics I have offered on numerous occasions various citations you can read for yourself.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here's a NIST link to describe this test to you (LINK= 1.3.5.3. Two-Sample <i>t</i>-Test for Equal Means[/FONT])

[FONT=&quot]There’s even a variant for pair-wise comparisons.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It’s formula is:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]t = d/(s[sub]d[/sub]/sqrt(N))[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]where [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]d= (1/N)*sum(differences between individual pairs)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]s[sub]d[/sub] = sqrt{(1/(N-1)*sum((d[sub]i[/sub]-d)^2))[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](LINK= 7.3.1.1. Analysis of paired observations)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
grmorton said:
IN the case of temperature you are claiming that the earth is warming over the last century at the rate of .84 +/- 9 deg C. Which of course, means you can't claim it has warmed at all. But, I don't expect you to acknowledge that. You never have understood that simple fact of statistics.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Speaking of "simple facts of statistics":[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Which of the two of us understands the difference between a confidence interval and a standard deviation?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Which of the two of us knows how to compare means using a t-test?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Which of the two of us has actually provided robust statistical analyses to prove their points?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Interestingly enough on almost all of my posts in which I put stats up I have an associated p-value. That little p-value tells me how likely it is I am making a rather specific type of error. Where are your p-values?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
grmorton said:
Hint the SD of the temperature differences of pairs of towns is about 3-4 degrees. That means that is the error in the data.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The standard error of the mean is actually the standard deviation divided by the square root of the number of samples[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The standard deviation is a measure of dispersion of the data about the mean.[/FONT]
 
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thaumaturgy

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One can derive thermal convection without a single reference to statistics, just using physics. Hint: it involves density.

Yes, but one doesn't have to avoid statistics or statistical mechanics!

Somehow you have come to the mistaken view in life that all science is statistics. That is about as silly a position as one can take.

Make sure to tell that to Ludwig Boltzmann.

Shoot Thau, I could find an MMTS next to an open flame and it wouldn't bother you at all. Nothing will.
If you could show me enough open flames by enough temperature stations and you could prove that only surface temperature stations are used in assessing global warming, it might sway me.

But then I'm not as easily impressed by anecdotal data as you are, Glenn.

Thau, frankly you keep showing that you know nothing about physics yet you are so utterly certain that your understanding of AGW is correct. You shouldn't be so certain.
And interestingly enough, when talking about data you keep showing (as I have shown above) that you know very little about statistics (which is integral to dealing with data, like it or not). You shouldnt' be so certain when you lambaste me on the topic.

I'll freely admit I'm not a thermodynamics expert, I merely pointed to statistical mechanics as more of a lark because you seem so hell-bent on avoiding statistics at every turn.

Just an FYI.
 
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grmorton

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Looks like we can add basic physics to the list of things that Mr Morton doesn't understand

Verdict first, trial later said the Red Queen.

I will stand by my physics. But it is clear to me that you don't understand radiative heat transfer after a comment like the above.

Here is one just for you Baggins, since you seem to forget about infrared radiation as a means to transmit heat. Parts of the area around this MMTS are emitting at 48 C (118 F).

TullahomaTNIRoverall2.jpg



By the way the glowing object above, emitting at 118 F are transformers, electrical transformers. If you will go to this web pagehttp://gallery.surfacestations.org/main.php?g2_itemId=45868 you can see a roof at Tullahoma TN near the MMTS emitting at 54 deg C --just shy of 130 deg F. Of course, Baggins, you haven't studied radiative heat flow and thought that only air could transmit heat. How wrong you are.

As I said, I will stand by what I said about physics. So far I have not seen you actually present any data, but you are a nice jeering section.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Verdict first, trial later said the Red Queen.

I will stand by my physics. But it is clear to me that you don't understand radiative heat transfer after a comment like the above.

Here is one just for you Baggins, since you seem to forget about infrared radiation as a means to transmit heat. Parts of the area around this MMTS are emitting at 48 C (118 F).

TullahomaTNIRoverall2.jpg

I believe that statistical mechanics can be applied to black-body radiation in regards to the partition of energy. (LINK)

It can also more generally be applied to thermal radiation (LINK)

Oh well, this isn't my area at all, so I'm not going to run too far down this road. But my point still stands, statistics can and do play a role in thermo. Certainly have since the late 1800's, early 1900's. (Not that classical thermo is somehow less without it, but it certainly provides a general good to the concepts....unless you want to count molecules and measure their speed individually. Which might be as fruitful as discussing individual temperature stations.)
 
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grmorton

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For those who might be interested in finding out how much a building can heat up when the sun shines on it, go see

Thermografix Consulting Corp. SARS, sars, environmental, environment, condo crisis, leaky condos, energy efficiency, heat loss, building envelope, thermography, infrared, inspection, predictive maintenance, safety inspection, environmental inspection

This guy has some time-lapse thermal imagery with the temperature calibrated on various places on the buildings. He goes from just before dawn until about 9am in most videos. A sunlit building can have a surface of up to 154 deg F, which, if near a thermometer would cause heating of the air and the thermometer.

I stand my my physics on this, Mr. Bailey. Having a 154 deg F surface a few feet away from a thermometers is not going to give a good temperature. And this is why having a thermometer next to a building is said to add 5 deg + to the temperature output of the thermometer.

but I have little doubt that most of you won't even bother to go look--like Cardinal Bellarmine, you won't look into the telescope .
 
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thaumaturgy

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I stand my my physics on this, Mr. Bailey. Having a 154 deg F surface a few feet away from a thermometers is not going to give a good temperature. And this is why having a thermometer next to a building is said to add 5 deg + to the temperature output of the thermometer.

The funniest part of all this is no one on here disagrees with you on this point, Glenn. There's not a soul out there who thinks this will not bias the temperature of that station.

The real thing you seem to have an issue with is averaging data. Which is ironic since "average" and "standard deviation" appear to be about the only thing in statistics you do know about (See my post #513)

As I think I've shown most ably numerous times now, outliers can exist in the data and still yield relatively good data as long as there are enough good data points.

I will have to wait for you to show me how 98 weather stations poorly sited in the U.S. next to AC units can significantly shift trends based on 1221 stations averaged into gridded compartments.

Oh, and one other thing, if the GISS folks are correcting urban sitings by comparing them to well placed non-urban sitings how, exactly, do you think that would make the general trend WARM?

If I correct a "hot" item by changing it according to rural stations (presumably not impacted by as many hot urban effects) how would that result in overall increase in the adjusted stations?
 
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grmorton

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For those like Mr. Bailey, who think they understand physics but really don't, the reason one doesn't want a thermometer on a hot roof top or gravel, or cement is that the underlying surface will heat up like crazy. In the picture below, an infrared picture, you can see that the grassy areas which appear dark are around 15 deg C while the cement is about 25-28 C That is a 10-12 degree hotter surface radiating at the thermometer. It will also heat the air which will then go straight up to the themometer.

I really can't believe I am having to spend this much time to convince a bunch of believers that thermomters for global warming purposes shouldn't be sited on cement, near buildings or near air conditioners.
weatherNCLumbertonNCIRlookingSE.jpg


YOu could find out this information if you had a penny's worth of curiosity.
 
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Thistlethorn

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I really can't believe I am having to spend this much time to convince a bunch of believers that thermomters for global warming purposes shouldn't be sited on cement, near buildings or near air conditioners.

If you took the time to read and understand any posts in this thread, you would quickly realize that you don't, in fact, have to spend any time convincing anyone of that.
 
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