Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not quite, Martin Luther began this even though it was NOT his intent. He was trying to "reform" the RCC by working for biblical reform from within. He was never a Lutheran and died as a RCC.

http://www.christianforums.com/t6980813/http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6980813&page=14
That Martin Luther? He wasn’t so bad, says Pope

 

[Albion]

"Ditto for me. Have fun slamming the Romish denomination and the Papacy. Maybe I will just go post at CARM instead."

One yearns, just longs for, the advice-giver to follow his own advice.

 

[JimfromOhio]

According to the first reference work I picked up here at home, it is--

"a name or designation, esp. one for a class of things; a collection or society of individuals called by the same name, esp. a religious sect."

Real fightin' words, those, huh?

Agreed in every aspect of the definitions of "denomination". In this sinful world, I see doctrinal confusion rather than doctrinal conviction. There are alot of resistances to the Holy Spirit's conviction, not by choice but by their hearts' condition.

Most Christian denominations and movements share common beliefs in the major aspects of the Christian faith, while differing in many secondary doctrines. Christians believe what the Bible teaches in context which are the basics of what Christians believe and unite on.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I find it all amazing, watching from the sidelines on this "discussion". But like I friend told me, you're way too naive.

Folks, when you drill down into what happened, you're bound to hit a few nails. But shall we not drill?

Too naive? LOL

 

[Albion]

http://www.christianforums.com/t6980813/
That Martin Luther? He wasn’t so bad, says Pope

Well, it has been noted many times before that the zealots are way behind theit own Pope, the man they are pledged to defend unconditionally. About 600 years behind. Do you remember the endless blather about Scripture not being the "Word of God?' We reformed Christians were too stupid, you see, to know that Jesus was also called "the Word."

I quoted Pope Benedict using the term "Word of God" in a reference to Scripture. Did it matter to them? No, in one ear and out the other.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Notice the little word "but" at paragraph 4? I know you speak the truth, but Polycarp over there speaks the truth. And you and him aren't saying the same truth. (nothing personal, the universal you)

AND?

but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna,

So what about the 'but'?
ALSO followed, didnt it?

But also........

Racer,

The word "Romish" is a COMMONLY KNOWN religious slur. The fact you are seemingly unaware of its offensive nature to Catholics speaks volumes.

You shouldn't need to ask anyone if it is offensive. Assume it is offensive - BECAUSE IT IS. Would you ask a person of color if it is okay to use the "n" word? No. You should already know that it is not okay.

If you don't get that simple concept then I feel sorry for you.

Romish is reportable, i do believe. If it flamatory or used as a slur, it will be regarded as such.

Just letting yas know.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Well, it has been noted many times before that the zealots are way behind theit own Pope, the man they are pledged to defend unconditionally. About 600 years behind. Do you remember the endless blather about Scripture not being the "Word of God?' We reformed Christians were too stupid, you see, to know that Jesus was also called "the Word."

I quoted Pope Benedict using the term "Word of God" in a reference to Scripture. Did it matter to them? No, in one ear and out the other.

I agree. Jesus is the Word as John described. The Word of God is Christ which is one of many reasons why I have trouble with "Tradition". Tradition is an important guidance for all believers however, Tradition should be carefully scrutinized (to look over closely and discerning) before we rely on them. Tradition by itself is not enough because it must be studied and be brought up to date to true orthodoxy. When Tradition is supported by the Scriptures, it will communicate not as dead words but rather spiritually alive words through the Holy Spirit. God reveals Himself primarily through the pages of Scripture; that is why I believe the Bible as my absolute authority.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, it has been noted many times before that the zealots are way behind theit own Pope, the man they are pledged to defend unconditionally. About 600 years behind. Do you remember the endless blather about Scripture not being the "Word of God?' We reformed Christians were too stupid, you see, to know that Jesus was also called "the Word."

I quoted Pope Benedict using the term "Word of God" in a reference to Scripture. Did it matter to them? No, in one ear and out the other.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7354982/
What is the "Word of God"

 

[Standing Up]

By all means continue ...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Contextually - the first Church is not classed seperately of itself.
Being first, it is not in a denomination.
But any under the original are classified as such.

de⋅nom⋅i⋅na⋅tion  /dɪˌnɒm

əˈneɪ

ʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [di-nom-uh-ney-shuh

n] Show IPA
–noun 1.a religious group, usually including many local churches, often larger than a sect: the Lutheran denomination. 2.one of the grades or degrees in a series of designations of quantity, value, measure, weight, etc.: He paid $500 in bills of small denomination. 3.a name or designation, esp. one for a class of things.4.a class or kind of persons or things distinguished by a specific name.5.the act of naming or designating a person or thing.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I agree. Jesus is the Word as John described. The Word of God is Christ which is one of many reasons why I have trouble with "Tradition". Tradition is an important guidance for all believers however, Tradition should be carefully scrutinized (to look over closely and discerning) before we rely on them. Tradition by itself is not enough because it must be studied and be brought up to date to true orthodoxy. When Tradition is supported by the Scriptures, it will communicate not as dead words but rather spiritually alive words through the Holy Spirit. God reveals Himself primarily through the pages of Scripture; that is why I believe the Bible as my absolute authority.

Scriptures can proove Tradition.
Tradition beget scriptures.

 

[Rick Otto]

I find it all amazing, watching from the sidelines on this "discussion". But like I friend told me, you're way too naive.

Folks, when you drill down into what happened, you're bound to hit a few nails. But shall we not drill?

I'll do my bit.
I broke three drill bits making some porch steps yesterday.
Shall we not step? Heaven forbid!
Pardon my cutting in. Lumber on.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Contextually - the first Church is not classed seperately of itself.
Being first, it is not in a denomination.
But any under the original are classified as such.

de⋅nom⋅i⋅na⋅tion  /dɪˌnɒm

əˈneɪ

ʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [di-nom-uh-ney-shuh

n] Show IPA
–noun 1.a religious group, usually including many local churches, often larger than a sect: the Lutheran denomination. 2.one of the grades or degrees in a series of designations of quantity, value, measure, weight, etc.: He paid $500 in bills of small denomination. 3.a name or designation, esp. one for a class of things.4.a class or kind of persons or things distinguished by a specific name.5.the act of naming or designating a person or thing.

Greetings.
I thought I would respond to that.
Have you ever debated atheists, Jews and Muslims?
All they see is "Christians", not denominations.

 

[Albion]

Scriptures can proove Tradition.
Tradition beget scriptures.

God is the author of Scripture, lest we forget. If it were not so, we would not consider it to be revelation, which we do.

But let's get back to the topic, unclear as it was. Wasn't that the relative strengths or weaknesses of claims made about the Papacy's origins?

 

[Rick Otto]

A verification of everything I said was really going on, isn't it? Let's see...We "have fun" slamming his church, don't we? We are all just peas in the pod with--whom? Karl Barth? Billy Graham? Oh no, he chooses CARM as his comparison. He must not have had time to write out "Jack Chick."

But if we had said HALF of that kind of thing towards the RCC, we'd all be called insensitive, unreasonable, and oh so hurtful wouldn't we? You betcha.

The truth comes out.

Talkin' smack about "Talkin' Smack".. It's old.

But the truth will out is scriptural reality.
At least we can still turn to the heavens. They declare His glory.
My future looks bright.

 

[Albion]

Contextually - the first Church is not classed seperately of itself.
Being first, it is not in a denomination.

But for that to be true, it would actually have to be first, wouldn't you agree?

Anyway, that's beside the point. Speaking of all churches as denominations is perfectly acceptable usage.

 

[vanshan]

Protestant Patristic Scholars do not agree with you.


Protestant Patristic scholar Harnack says about Rome.

Ignatius is our first external witness in regard to the Roman Church in 110AD. After making allowances for exaggeration of language in his letter to the Romans, it remains clear that Ignatius assigns a de facto primacy to the Roman Church among its sister churches and that he knew of an energetic and habitual activity of this church in protecting and instructing other churches. The Church and Infallibility pg. 140 (c. 1954

Primacy of honor isn't in debate. Rome was the imperial city, or capital of the Empire, at that time, so naturally the bishop over that region was important within the Body of Christ. Again, this was limited to calling councils, being a unifying voice for Christians, and helping to resolve disputes in and between other local churches. None of these honorary roles given to the Patriarchs of Rome indicated supremecy as it was dogmatized by Roman Catholics in 1870.

The Orthodox Church maintains a form of primacy among the remaining bishops within the universal Orthodox Church, and within in each local national church, or synod, but this is preserved as a primacy of honor not power over any other bishop. Calls are being made by our current Patriarch of Constantinople, who's the first among equals, since the absence of the Patriarch of Rome, for a all-church council soon. Within each local synod or national church an Archbishop or Metropolitan is the highest ranking bishop in honor, and the person to help unify and arbitrate various issues within their synods. This is the ongoing life of the Church, which follows the biblical model, and the actions of the Church for the first millenium after Christ.

Basil

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Primacy of honor isn't in debate. Rome was the imperial city, or capital of the Empire, at that time, so naturally the bishop over that region was important within the Body of Christ.

Greetings. OC Jerusalem was also the "capital/imperial" city of OC Israel

Luke 19:41 And as He nears being aware the City He laments upon Her
42 saying "that if thou knew and thou even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon thee and thy enemies shall be casting up a siege-work to thee and shall be encompassing thee and pressing thee every which place.
44 and they shall be leveling thee and the offspring of thee in thee and not they shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee stead which not thou knew the time of the visitation of thee".

 

[WarriorAngel]

Greetings.
I thought I would respond to that.
Have you ever debated atheists, Jews and Muslims?
All they see is "Christians", not denominations.

Put it this way LLOJ, I currently have an ongoing discussion - prooving scriptures via archeology.
[Not in this forum]
And they see us as Catholics and Christians [etc]
It comes as no surprise there is more disdain for Catholicism...
But i am comfortable with it. For in the spitting they toss my way, scriptures says i shall be blessed.
I hope so... but i dont know.
I certainly doubt it now that i said it.
But just giving an example of the world against Catholicism is ongoing.

Makes ya realise that scriptures via Jesus was right.
"They hated me first..''

SO it is what it is.

God is the author of Scripture, lest we forget. If it were not so, we would not consider it to be revelation, which we do.

But let's get back to the topic, unclear as it was. Wasn't that the relative strengths or weaknesses of claims made about the Papacy's origins?

God is the Author but He uses men.

Show me where He hasn't.

He even used Moses when He Himself carved out the 10. Who was Moses to Him?
The recipient - the teacher - the trustee [guardian] of the message.

Ya can't have the message without the person - as recipient or the guardian of what the message means.