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Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope

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boswd

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The one teacher I always got along with back then is my Art teacher. Always got A's :p


I actually love my Middle School English teacher he was the one that got my into the whole Middle Earth. Hobbit was required reading and the Lord of the Rings Trilogy was extra credit. Easiest extra credit ever.

I still read them to this day.
 
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NewMan99

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Does Clement identify himself as the infallible Pope of The Catholic Church in those letters?

In addition to supervirens' excellent response to your post, I would like to add that it would be somewhat anachronistic for us to expect Clement to identify himself as the "infallible Pope". The concept of papal infallibility, as a theological construct had not been articulated at that point in history any more than we should expect a first or second century clergyman to have articulated theological terminology such as the "Trinity" (as the term LATER came to be defined by the Church) or the "Hypostatic Union." These kinds of concepts, and their respective terms which were eventually coined, had yet to be explored and defined - and in fact some of the Church Fathers might have initially disagreed with concepts that many Christians today consider to be perfectly orthodox. There was a lot of debate before these matters were settled authoritatively. But whether or not Clement considered himself to be an infallible Pope has no bearing on if he actually was. A person need not agree with the Church's definition of the Trinity for the Trinity to exist as an objective reality. It's Truth does not depend on whether or not anybody defines it, understands it, or agrees with it. The same with the charism of Infallibility. Clement did not need to claim it for himself for it to exist. That said, a credible argument can be made that Clement did view himself to be the Successor of Peter, and hence the supreme pastor of the universal Church with authority over the Church in Corinth even though it existed outside the ordinary jurisdiction of the Roman Patriarchate during a time when an actual Apostle (John) was still alive and geographically closer to Corinth than he was.

I will be posting on this topic fairly soon.


God's Peace,

NewMan
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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In addition to supervirens' excellent response to your post, I would like to add that it would be somewhat anachronistic for us to expect Clement to identify himself as the "infallible Pope". The concept of papal infallibility, as a theological construct had not been articulated at that point in history any more than we should expect a first or second century clergyman to have articulated theological terminology such as the "Trinity" (as the term LATER came to be defined by the Church) or the "Hypostatic Union." These kinds of concepts, and their respective terms which were eventually coined, had yet to be explored and defined - and in fact some of the Church Fathers might have initially disagreed with concepts that many Christians today consider to be perfectly orthodox. There was a lot of debate before these matters were settled authoritatively. But whether or not Clement considered himself to be an infallible Pope has no bearing on if he actually was. A person need not agree with the Church's definition of the Trinity for the Trinity to exist as an objective reality. It's Truth does not depend on whether or not anybody defines it, understands it, or agrees with it. The same with the charism of Infallibility. Clement did not need to claim it for himself for it to exist.

I will be posting on this topic fairly soon.


God's Peace,

NewMan


Bob,

Thank you for your helpful contribution. I think part of the "issue" for you is how do you share the historical evidence that THE POPE of THE Catholic Church has always existed if what we all know as "pope" did not always exist. Now, no one (well, not me) is denying that that concept did EVENTALLY develop. Obviously, because your denomination has a pope. No one is denying the the RCC has a POPE, and no one denies that such did not suddenly spring into existence in 1054 AD. There was a development. But, my unseparated and equal brother, you are the one who equated the papacy with infallibility and with the "whole universal church" being in "bond" to him. Thus, those are the two aspects I've been focused on: Infallibility and "whole universal church" being "bound" to that specific, singular bishop of that specific diocese.

There's a similar issue for you vis-a-vis the specific, particular Catholic Church. For such to have been founded personally by Jesus during His earthly ministry (or on Pentecost thereafter), the first "order of business" is to document that IT existed at the time of His early ministry (or on Pentecost of 30 AD) - otherwise, obviously, it is not POSSIBLE that He founded it. Now, what all of the Protestants in this thread have been very precise about, is that we all accept that the church catholic existed (IMHO, since Our Blessed Lady accepted the Angel's message): CHRISTIANS existed, and yes, they are one and holy (present tense since the church is without time - catholic also in that sense). But that has no bearing whatsoever on whether any intercongregational (call such institution whatever you like) existed - whether such be the Greek Orthodox Church or Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod or United Methodist Church USA or The Catholic Church. There are STILL Christians and so the church lives today - but only roughly half of them participate in congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church in any sense. And, respected and learned friend, no one denies that from the 50's on, there were bishops and eventually these evolved into what we now think of - as supervisors of congregations and their clergy, but that too has nothing whatsoever to do with the LDS or UMC or Anglican Church or Evangelical Lutheran Church in America or any other denomination that has the constitutional office of bishop by that specific English name (not to mention all those that have bishops but by some other moniker). See, friend, IF one is going to argue that General Motors was founded by George Washington in 1776, it's not enough to say that he had a horse drawn cart with 4 wheels on it and most GM products have 4 wheels, you somehow need to substantiate that GENERAL MOTORS existed in 1776 and THEN that George Washington is the specific one singularly responsible for the establishment of THAT specific, singular manufactor of motor vehicles. To simply say, General Motors is a part of a LONG history in the development of transportation that goes back to Claude the Caveman in 34,515 BC is to NOT substantiate that George Washington founded GM. I'm using an absurd illustation but I'm pretty sure you are getting my point. What we need from you is something that substantiates that no later than 30 AD, what is DISTICTIVELY the Roman Papacy of the RCC existed - or else the statements that it always existed and that Jesus founded it are without substantiation. You may embrace such as a pure article of faith, of course, and I think all here will respect that just as we do articles of faith of our Mormon friends and as you respect articles of faith outside the RCC, but you have been steadfast (as good apologist must) that the claim is true - not just believed.

The Matthew 16:18 thing, as you yourself seemed to admit, doesn't wash. The RCC has a unique "take" on it that, while perhaps POSSIBLE, is but one option, an option that only one takes - the RCC (seems a tad self-serving if you can understand that perspective). And, frankly, IMHO, not only doesn't support the papacy but creates more problems for the RCC than it solves because, at fact value, it means that the "keys" (whatever that is - another subject for another day) must be in Peter's cold, dead hands and now no one can proclaim the Gospel, teach, or do as we pray we will do in the Lord's Prayer: forgive sins. But, you already seemed to admit that you realize that verse accomplishes little; certainly to "break through" the over 1000 year disagreement of everyone with the RCC regarding the papacy.

Again, my brother, NO ONE is denying that the distinctively CC understanding of the Papacy did not develop over time. And there may be at least something of roots going far back. No one claims it popped out of nowhere in 1870 with the proclaimation of Dogma of his infallibility (do I remember the year right?). But that doesn't mean that the distinctive Infallible Roman Pontiff existed in 30 AD so that there is at least the theoretical possibility that Jesus founded that (whether He did would be another discussion). And again, it was you (not me) that make two distictives key to the discussion: Infallibility and universal AUTHORITY of exclusively HIS office over the WHOLE church, not just his own denomination (or whatever you desire to call those in communion with himself). Otherwise, all you are doing is confirming the Protestant point: All this evolved, in your denomination. And your point of Jesus establishing it, it being infallible and it being universal remain claims unsubstantiated - or as I'd put it, pure articles of faith - and you'd be acknowledging the Protestants' point. At least, that's how I currently see it.


NewMan99 said:
That said, a credible argument can be made that Clement did view himself to be the Successor of Peter, and hence the supreme pastor of the universal Church with authority over the Church in Corinth even though it existed outside the ordinary jurisdiction of the Roman Patriarchate during a time when an actual Apostle (John) was still alive and geographically closer to Corinth than he was.


No. I respectfully disagree. What that specific bishopric would become centuries later has no bearing whatsoever on what it was then. Obviously. In my job, I am the successor of Betty - who was the first to hold this job (it was largely created with her in mine). She hired me before she left the company. I'm her successor. Now, it's theoretically possible that 1500 years from now, this position might evolve into a very high power, very important position with a seven figure salary! But (believe me!), that has nothing to do with my job now! Again, your task here is to confirm that what makes the RCC's POPE distinctive (and you gave two: infallibility and absolute universality over all Christians as the two "marks" you've desired to focus on) has existed since at least 30 AD so that there is at least the theoretical POSSIBILITY that Jesus founded such and that such has "always existed" rather than the slowly evolved understanding of your singular denomination that is my view here in our friendly discussion.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
 
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TraderJack

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well this is also from St. Aug"


All the more should he have feared to break the peace of unity, because Carthage was a great and famous city, whence the evil might spread from the head through the whole body of Africa. Besides, it was in touch with the overseas countries, and enjoyed widespread fame. Certainly, it had a bishop of no ordinary authority, who was able to pay no attention to a crowd of hostile conspirators, when he saw that he was united by pastoral letters to the Church of Rome, where the primacy of the apostolic chair has always flourished, and to those other countries from which the Gospel came to Africa, itself, and when arrangements were made for him to plead his case if his opponents should try to win over those churches from him."
(To Glorius et. al., Epistle 43:7 (A.D. 397-398), in FC, XII:187)

That has been addressed many times already.

Now, let me add in everything your cut and paste snippet leaves out to put Augustine in context.


Before his passion the Lord Jesus, as you know, chose those disciples of his, whom he called apostles. Among these it was only Peter who almost everywhere was given the privilege of representing the whole Church. It was in the person of the whole Church, which he alone represented, that he was privileged to hear, ‘To you will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’ (Mt 16:19). After all, it isn’t just one man that received these keys, but the Church in its unity. So this is the reason for Peter’s acknowledged pre–eminence, that he stood for the Church’s universality and unity, when he was told, ‘To you I am entrusting,’ what has in fact been entrusted to ALL.

I mean, to show you that it is the Church which has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, listen to what the Lord says in another place to all his apostles: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit;’ and straightway, ‘Whose sins you forgive, they will be forgiven them; whose sins you retain, they will be retained’ (Jn 20:22-23). This refers to the keys, about which it is said, ‘whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven’ (Mt 16:19). But that was said to Peter. To show you that Peter at that time stood for the universal Church, listen to what is said to him, what is said to all the faithful, the saints: ‘If your brother sins against you, correct him between you and himself alone’ ---"[SIZE=-1]On the Saints", Sermon 295
[/SIZE]

Did you get this part:

So this is the reason for Peter’s acknowledged pre–eminence, that he stood for the Church’s universality and unity, when he was told, ‘To you I am entrusting,’ what has in fact been entrusted to ALL.

You see, "Primacy" did not mean what Romanism came to twist it to mean, being papal supremacy.

No, "primacy" was the honor of Peter in being the first to confess, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God".
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=NewMan; In addition to supervirens' excellent response to your post, I would like to add that it would be somewhat anachronistic for us to expect Clement to identify himself as the "infallible Pope". The concept of papal infallibility, as a theological construct had not been articulated at that point in history any more than we should expect a first or second century clergyman to have articulated theological terminology such as the "Trinity" (as the term LATER came to be defined by the Church) or the "Hypostatic Union."
The concept must be asserted in it's "unarticulated" state or it is a manufactured concept.

These kinds of concepts, and their respective terms which were eventually coined, had yet to be explored and defined - and in fact some of the Church Fathers might have initially disagreed with concepts that many Christians today consider to be perfectly orthodox.
But not disagreed in any official teaching, so it doesn't matter, right?
There was a lot of debate before these matters were settled authoritatively. But whether or not Clement considered himself to be an infallible Pope has no bearing on if he actually was.
I get that.:)
A person need not agree with the Church's definition of the Trinity for the Trinity to exist as an objective reality. It's Truth does not depend on whether or not anybody defines it, understands it, or agrees with it.
Excepting The Magesterium & any Pope when pontificating on faith & morals from "Peter's Chair", right?

The same with the charism of Infallibility. Clement did not need to claim it for himself for it to exist. That said, a credible argument can be made that Clement did view himself to be the Successor of Peter,
But only as a bishop - symbol of unity in his community, not as 'final answer' on interpreting or enforcing.

and hence the supreme pastor of the universal Church with authority over the Church in Corinth
I think he referred to them as brothers, not subjects.
I don't think he referred to any superlative dimension to Rome's ecclesiastical authority.
 
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Standing Up

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NewMan99

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No. I respectfully disagree. What that specific bishopric would become centuries later has no bearing whatsoever on what it was then. Obviously.

The point - which you are apparently missing - is that AT THAT TIME the Bishop of Rome was exercising authority over a Church in Corinth - a Church which, I will add, appealed TO Rome to heal the schism in their midst - at a time when there were no living Apostles in Rome, but there was a living Apostle (John) in nearby Ephesus.

So therefore one of two possibilities exist: either Corinth was considered part of the Roman "diocese" (for lack of a better word) and hence under the ordinary direct authority of the Bishop of Rome (which would explain why the Corinthians appealed to the Roman Bishop)...and NOBODY I know is making that claim - OR - the Church in Corinth (in Greece - in the EAST) was outside the ordinary Roman "diocese" and the Corinthian's appeal to Rome with its subsequent exercise of authority by the Roman Bishop is an example of universal jurisdiction by the supreme pastor in a matter pertaining to the unity and orthodoxy of the Church...which is precisely what we Catholics have claimed throughout this thread.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The point - which you are apparently missing - is that AT THAT TIME the Bishop of Rome was exercising authority over a Church in Corinth - a Church which, I will add, appealed TO Rome to heal the schism in their midst - at a time when there were no living Apostles in Rome, but there was a living Apostle (John) in nearby Ephesus.
How come they didn't appeal to John IF he was still alive at the time?
How do we know he wasn't on Patmos receiving the Revelation of Jesus Christ during that time? Just curious.

Reve 1:9 I John the brother of ye and joint-partaker in the affliction and kingdom and endurance in *Jesus Christ* came to be in the island, the being called Patmos, because of the word of the God and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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NewMan99

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How come they didn't appeal to John IF he was still alive at the time?

Indeed. That is the question you must ask yourself. My answer to that question is that the Corinthians knew that only one person had the charism of "Key-bearer" for the Church who was tasked with universal justisdiction on matters pertaining to unity and orthodoxy for the Church. And while John carried considerable authority due to his Apostolic office, John was never the Key-bearer. Who did they appeal to when their unity was threatened? They appealed to St. Peter's successor, who then exercised his universal jurisdiction as the Key-bearer for the Church.

How do we know he wasn't on Patmos receiving the Revelation of Jesus Christ during that time? Just curious.

The dating of the Revelation is, of course, a matter of great controversy. It is my personal belief that it was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD since the book strongly suggests/predicts its impending doom (among MANY other things the book deals with). I realize not everyone agrees with this dating.

Clement's Epistle to the Corinthians dates from around 90 AD.

But there are other clues we can go by...

St. Irenaeus wrote this:

“Then, again, the church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the Apostles." (Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, Book III, Chapter III, 180 A.D.).

The Emperor Trajan reigned from A.D. 98 until A.D. 117.


St. Irenaeus also claimed that St. John wrote his Gospel while he lived in Ephesus:

"Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia." (Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, Book III, Chapter I, 180 A.D.)

Most Christians agree that he wrote his Gospel very late in his life (circa 90 AD - about the time of Clement's letter to the Corinthians). After all, if he lived in Ephesus *permanently* until his death during the reign of Trajan, and if he wrote his Gospel account while he lived in Ephesus...it stands to reason he was indeed presiding in nearby Ephesus when the Corinthians appealed to St. Clement at Rome.
 
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TraderJack

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Originally Posted by TraderJack
They are commonly held facts among those of us who know the FACTS.
So I will take that as a NO then. So you snip from his agruments but don't give credit. Ok
Originally Posted by TraderJack
They are commonly held facts among those of us who know the FACTS.

:p:kiss:
 
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TraderJack

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The point - which you are apparently missing - is that AT THAT TIME the Bishop of Rome was exercising authority over a Church in Corinth

No he wasn't.

Clement was familiar with their predicament.

His epistle to them quotes so heavily from Paul's epistles to them that you could reconstruct Paul's epistles from them.


Clement was lovingly aiding those saints that he was familiar with.
 
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NewMan99

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Part 4 (this is a continuation from Post #302, Post #296, and Post #357)

For the sake of clarity, I'd first like to recap the premise I am providing supporting evidence for:

The papacy, defined as "the ministry of a supreme pastor with the power of jurisdiction to maintain universal unity and orthodoxy within the Christian church," was created by Christ, through the apostle Peter, and this ministry was thereafter succeeded to by the bishops of Rome.


This premise is really broken down into two parts:

1. The "ministry of supreme pastor with jurisdictional authority to maintain universal authority and orthodoxy within the Christian Church" was bestowed upon Peter by Jesus.

- and -

2. That the Bishops of Rome in the early Church succeeded to this same "Petrine" ministry.


My previous posts in the analysis have focused on the first part of the premise. I have provided Scriptural proof-texts which Catholics claim support our view that not only was this special ministry bestowed on Peter by Jesus, but also that the Early Church during the Apostolic era (as per examples drawn from the Book of Acts) recognized this special ministry as Peter exercised his authority (sometimes acting unilaterally) in ways that are consistent with someone who was, indeed, the supreme pastor of the Church.

Obviously, many non-Catholics interpret these Bible passages in a different light, within the context of their own faith traditions (just as we interpret them within the light of ours). But whose interpretation is right? And what about the Early Church itself - and by this I mean those within living memory of the Apostles themselves? What did those people do or say who were either direct disciples of an Apostle (or more than one), or perhaps those who were only one generation removed...the disciples of the disciples of the Apostles?

So that brings us to the second part cited above. For if non-Catholics are right in their Biblical interpretations (and we Catholics are wrong about the Biblical evidence I cited with regard to part one above), then we would not find any evidence of these Apostolic disciples/wintnesses deferring to any supposed universal jurisdictional claims by the Roman Church or its Bishops. We would not see them appealing to the Bishop of Rome to definitively settle matters pertaining to the faith and its unity and orthodoxy.

But what if we did see them acting precisely as we would expect them to act IF the Bishop of Rome was, in fact, the supreme pastor of the Church? What would that tell us - not only about how the Apostolic disciples and early Church viewed the matter, but also about the correct interpretation of the Bible passages we have been examining in this analysis?

For if we Catholics have the correct Biblical interpretation, then these Apostolic witnesses in the Early Church would behave in a certain way --- and --- conversely --- if non-Catholics have the correct Biblical interpretation, then the Apostolic witnesses - those within living memory of the Apostles and learned from the Apostles DIRECTLY - these witnesses would behave in an entirely different way.

So which is it? How did they behave? What did they write?

Check my very next post for the beginning of that answer...
 
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NewMan99

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Part 5 (this is a continuation from Post #302, Post #296, Post #357, and Post #415)

Let us now move on to the second part of the premise:

2. That the Bishops of Rome in the early Church succeeded to this same "Petrine" ministry.

To answer this challenge, I will call five early Christians to the "witness stand" and we shall examine what they had to write. Before I do so, I must point out, though, that their words on the topic at hand are merely *incidental* - that is to say - they were not writing specifically about Petrine or Roman supremacy, per se. These were not theological treastises devoted to the developing office of the Papacy or its ontological charisms. So there are no full-blown examinations of the specific topics were are trying to explore. That said, with regard to the various topics that they WERE actually writing about, they make mention of certain aspects of Petrine prerogative that came into play incidently. Therefore the only way their words or actions make sense is if they viewed Peter's successors as having the same special ministry that Peter had - and that us Catholics claim for him and his successors. But you don't need to take my word for it...let's look at theirs...

First let me introduce the five "witnesses" I am going to call, and what their relationship was to the Apostles, either directly or indirectly:

1. The first is Clement - who is someone we have recently been discussing in this thread. Clement, of course, wrote somewhere between 88 AD-97 AD. He was a disciple of both Peter and Paul. He is referenced in Philippians 4:3 (Paul calls him his "co-worker"), and upon the deaths of the Apostles, Clement became one of the earliest Bishops of the Roman Church.

Clement wrote approximately 25 years after Peter's death. He was very much a contemporary of the Apostles, and had a direct personal relationship with two of them.

2. The second witness I will call to the stand is Ignatius of Antioch. He wrote between 100 AD-107 AD. Ignatius was a direct disciple of St. John, and the second Bishop of Antioch who succeeded Evodius, who was a disciple of St. Peter. Ignatius was eventually martyred in the arena in Rome.

Ignatius wrote approximately 40 years after the death of Peter. He, too, was a contemporary of the Apostles, and is connected with two of them (John and Peter).

3. The third witness will be Polycarp of Smyrna. He, too, was a direct disciple of St. John. He was also a close friend and associate of Ignatius of Antioch. Polycarp lived a very long life was primarily active from 107 AD-165 AD, until he, too, was martyred.

Polycarp, too, began giving his witness through his ministry about 40 years after Peter's death. He, too, was a contemporary of the Apostles with a direct connection to John (even though Polycarp was young while John was old).

4. The fourth witness will be Irenaeus of Lyon, who was a disciple of Polycarp (who was, as I said above, a diciple of the Apostle John). He was active from 160 AD onward. He wrote his most famous work "Against Heresies" circa 180 AD.

Irenaeus' witness comes approximately 90 years after the death of Peter. While he was not a contemporary of the Apostles, he is but one generation removed and therefore has an indirect connection (through Polycarp) with John.

5. The fifth, and last, witness in this analysis will be Dionysius of Cornith (yes - that Corinth - the same Church that received Clement's letter just a generation previously). He wrote before 170 AD, and hence was a contemporary of Irenaeus.

His witness comes 90 years after the death of Peter.

So here we have five different men, all of them writing within living memory of the Apostles. If anybody knew how the Early Church viewed the ministry of Peter and his successors, it would be these men. So what do they say about the authority of Rome?

Let's start with Clement. As we have already discussed here in this thread, Clement wrote a letter to the Church in Corinth about 90 AD. He was, of course, a successor to Peter, and hence was one of the Bishops of Rome we are discussing.

Why did Clement write to Corinth? It was because that Church had fallen into a state of schism. Some (not all) members of the Church had deposed and overthrown the legitimately appointed presbyters of their congregation (thus contradicting Acts 14:23), and were refusing to be obedient to them (thus contradicting Hebrews 13:17).

So, Clement, way over in Rome, wrote a letter to them. It began:

"Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have befallen us (i.e., the persecutions of Emperor Domitian), we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us; and especially to that shameful and detestable sedition, utterly abhorrent to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-confident persons have kindled to such a pitch of frenzy, that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be universally loved, has suffered grievous injury.” (1 Clement Chapter 1)

Let's first point out that it is the Corinthians who initially appealed to Rome (just as the Church in Antioch had turned to Jerusalem years earlier - see Acts 15:2 - when the Apostles and Church "HQ" was there at the time, before the destruction of Jerusalem). But that begs the question: why would they appeal to Rome at a time when no Apostle lived there? The Antiochan Church appealed to the Apostles in Acts 15. There was a living Apostle (John), almost certainly, living in nearby Ephesus at the time. So why didn't the Corinthians appeal to Ephesus (as they did in 1 Cor 7:1 and 16:8) at a time when John was still alive and still presiding there?

Clement goes on:

"Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continueth.” (1 Clement Chap. XLVI)

And...

"Ye, therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition, submit yourselves to the presbyters, and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts. Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue.” (1 Clement Chap. LVII)


Here Clement is not speaking as just one ticked-off Bishop among many other Bishops in the Church. Rather, he is issuing them a COMMAND. He ORDERS the disobedient and troublesome presbyters to SUBMIT to their local legitimately-appointed presbyters. Furthermore, he writes in a universal context - speaking for the Church when he spoke of the "grief to us all."

So...WHY does he do this? Where does he get this kind of authority from to expect obedience from a faction of people who are not even willing to obey their own local presbyters???

So in this example we can see (in 90AD) the Church in Rome, through the teaching office of the Bishop of Rome, teaching and issuing an authoritative command to another Church that is not in Rome's geographical vicinity or ordinary local jurisdiction. Clement doesn't ask them to submit as a favor or because he has a merely "honorary" position in the Church, rather he commands them to submit as if it is expected of them. Not only did the Corinthians appeal to Rome (instead of Ephesus where an Apostle lived), but the Bishop in Rome issued a command that carried the weight of binding authority even though Corinth had their own Bishops.

I will continue this analysis in subsequent posts when we will call the other four witnesses to the stand.


God's Peace,

NewMan
 
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Trento

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No he wasn't.

Clement was familiar with their predicament.

His epistle to them quotes so heavily from Paul's epistles to them that you could reconstruct Paul's epistles from them.


Clement was lovingly aiding those saints that he was familiar with.


Major Protestant Patristic Scholars agree with NewMan99.



Protestant Philip Schaff states in History of the Christian Church, volume 2 (Eerdmans, 1910)
On St. Clement of Rome (c. 96 AD), reckoned as the fourth Pope from St. Peter, Schaff states --
"...it can hardly be denied that the document [Clement to the Corinthians] reveals the sense of a certain superiority over all ordinary congregations. The Roman church here, without being asked gives advice, with superior administrative wisdom, to an important church in the East, dispatches messengers to her, and exhorts her to order and unity in a tone of calm dignity and authority, as the organ of God and the Holy Spirit. This is all the more surprising St. John, as is probable, was then still living in Ephesus, which was nearer to Corinth than Rome." (Schaff, page 158)

Protestant J.B. Lightfoot Church historian scholar-- commenting on Clements letter to the Cornithians A D 90
'It may perhaps seem strange to describe this noble remonstrance as the first step towards papal dominion. And yet undoubtedly this is the case'
St. Clement of Rome, pg 698
 
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Rebekah30

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No he wasn't.

Clement was familiar with their predicament.

His epistle to them quotes so heavily from Paul's epistles to them that you could reconstruct Paul's epistles from them.


Clement was lovingly aiding those saints that he was familiar with.

:thumbsup:

Clement was a swell guy but no pope.


Clement is a great example for pastors and everyone else! he exemplifies how we are to help, admonish, exhort fellow brothers in the Lord.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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:thumbsup:
Clement was a swell guy but no pope.

Clement is a great example for pastors and everyone else! he exemplifies how we are to help, admonish, exhort fellow brothers in the Lord.
Clement.......from the greek transliteration of #2815.

Only used 1 time in the NT :angel:

Phili 4:3 Yea I am asking also thee together-yoke! genuine! be thou helping them who-any in the Well-Message together-complete to-me with also/and clement/klh-mentoV <2815> and of the rests together-workers of me of whom the names in scroll of life.
 
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Standing Up

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-snip-

So, Clement, way over in Rome, wrote a letter to them. It began:

"Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have befallen us (i.e., the persecutions of Emperor Domitian), we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us; and especially to that shameful and detestable sedition, utterly abhorrent to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-confident persons have kindled to such a pitch of frenzy, that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be universally loved, has suffered grievous injury.” (1 Clement Chapter 1)

-snip-

I look forward to reading your posts on this, especially to your third witness.

But, please a bit more accuracy as you continue. Clement's letter begins thusly (according to NewAdvent.org):

"The church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the church of God sojourning at Corinth, to them that are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied."

Now, from that we can see equals talking, so I know it doesn't help the case, but please.

Also, what do you make of Clement's comparison of Christ's resurrection with the Phoenix'?
 
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