Mary - Salvation

[katholikos]

Well, its kinda simple.

If I - with my belief in an infallible Church - were to deny these dogmas just because I don't like them and, perhaps, feel they weren't explained sufficiantly to me, then I would be a heretic.

BUT: If deep deep down I was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were wrong, then I would have to follow my conscience.

There is a part in the Bible where it basically says that if you THINK something is wrong - whether it is actually wrong or not - and you do it anyway, that is a sin. (I forget where that passage is.)

 

[simonthezealot]

Well, its kinda simple.

If I - with my belief in an infallible Church - were to deny these dogmas just because I don't like them and, perhaps, feel they weren't explained sufficiantly to me, then I would be a heretic.

BUT: If deep deep down I was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were wrong, then I would have to follow my conscience.

There is a part in the Bible where it basically says that if you THINK something is wrong - whether it is actually wrong or not - and you do it anyway, that is a sin. (I forget where that passage is.)

Kath, can I ask you a serious question?
If you could encourage any kind of reform within your church which doctrines would you approach?

 

[katholikos]

Kath, can I ask you a serious question?
If you could encourage any kind of reform within your church which doctrines would you approach?

I could never do such a thing with doctrines. It is not my place.

Now ask me about governing practices and day to day affairs in diocesses... ....oh boy, don't get me started. I'd turn the joint upside down.

 

[simonthezealot]

I could never do such a thing with doctrines. It is not my place.

Now ask me about governing practices and day to day affairs in diocesses... ....oh boy, don't get me started. I'd turn the joint upside down.

what are governing practices, local diocese policies I presume?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Kath, can I ask you a serious question?

If you could encourage any kind of reform within your church which doctrines would you approach?

Catholic Catechism # 87: Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms"



Note:

1. The Catholic just accepts "with docility" whatever they are told, however they are told it, by the RCC.

2. This is all based on Jesus' words, "He who hears you, hears me." Of course, Jesus never said that to the RCC. And, contrary to what the Catechism says, He never said it to "his apostles." Jesus said this to the 72. The RCC simply asserts that Jesus meant to say it about the RCC, but there is zero indication of that.

3. The RCC alone claims that the RCC alone is "infallible/unaccountable" in matters of faith and morals, that when IT alone speaks, Jesus speaks, so to "question" the RCC is to question God. The "job" of the faithful Catholic is one of docilic acceptance of whatever the denomination says.

THUS, your question to our Catholic sister is a misplaced and moot one. For her to do as you suggest would be to cease to be Catholic - making your question moot. She IS able to question things OTHER than matters of faith and morals, of course, so your question needs to be limited to such non-faith, non-moral issues.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[Thekla]

katholikos

 

[katholikos]

what are governing practices, local diocese policies I presume?

Ya. Parish policies too.

 

[MrPolo]

Would a Catholic lose their salvation if they were to deny the marian dogmas?

Barring exceptions of ignorance of the teachings and whatnot, a Catholic could lose their salvation because the Church believes the teaching is from Christ Himself via the Church, and denial of Marian dogmas is denial and mistrust of Jesus Christ.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Would a Catholic lose their salvation if they were to deny the marian dogmas?

Only 20% of Catholics in the USA even attend church weekly and that too is a requirment.

Thank the powers that be that Grave Sin requires knowledge and a willingness to commit a grave sin against God.

For those that have been gifted by the Holy Spirit to know the fruits of Marion Dogmas then they must believe or it is a grave sin. This is true... But if you knew the Marion dogmas were true in your heart and mind then would you ever deny them? No way! No more than you would cut your ears off or gouge out your eyes.

But the truth is that most are unable to see the revelations of Jesus and His love for His mother. To know Jesus this well requires the work of the Holy Spirit in our entire being so that we become so much closer to Jesus that we too feel the love for Mary as though she were our loving and caring mother too.

Our God is just so incredibly awesome that he became a man so that we could have a God we can see and touch. A God that we can relate to as human. A God that had a mother just like every other human. But God gave himself the best mother of all mothers... And shouldn't He? Shouldn't our God have the best? You better believe it. No one should deny God His desire to have the best of women to be his mother and no one should deny God having His mother in Heaven with him in Body and Spirit.

So... I accept that God is human and wanted the best mother ever. I am especially grateful and joyful that I feel this love between them and so I believe the Marion Dogmas fully.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Only 20% of Catholics in the USA even attend church weekly and that too is a requirment......

That does not bode well, does it

 

[packermann]

For a Catholic to hell, three things must be involved:

1. He must commit a grave sin. Heresy, which is teaching anything that is contradict the Catholic Church, would constitute a grave sin. So objectively, rejecting the Marian doctrine would send someone to hell.

2. He must commit the sin willingly. No one is pointing a gun to his head.

3. He must commit the sin knowing that it is a sin that offends God. This makes it tricky. If a person knows that his disbelief in the Marian doctrines offends God, then in what sense is it that he does not believe them? It almost a contradiction terms. In order for him to go to hell, he must believe that his unbelief offends God. But why would it offend God unless it was true?

Because of the internal contradiction in #3, I think it would be very rare, if not impossible, that someone would go to hell who does not believe in Marian doctrine. A person who does not believe in Marian doctrine is unlikely to believe that his unbelief offends God. So, although theoretically it is possible, in actuality it is almost impossible.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

For a Catholic to hell, three things must be involved:

1. He must commit a grave sin. Heresy, which is teaching anything that is contradict the Catholic Church, would constitute a grave sin. So objectively, rejecting the Marian doctrine would send someone to hell.

2. He must commit the sin willingly. No one is pointing a gun to his head.

3. He must commit the sin knowing that it is a sin that offends God. This makes it tricky. If a person knows that his disbelief in the Marian doctrines offends God, then in what sense is it that he does not believe them? It almost a contradiction terms. In order for him to go to hell, he must believe that his unbelief offends God. But why would it offend God unless it was true?

Because of the internal contradiction in #3, I think it would be very rare, if not impossible, that someone would go to hell who does not believe in Marian doctrine. A person who does not believe in Marian doctrine is unlikely to believe that his unbelief offends God. So, although theoretically it is possible, in actuality it is almost impossible.

I cannot stress this enough:

He must commit the sin knowing that it is a sin that offends God

 

[simonthezealot]

I cannot stress this enough:

He must commit the sin knowing that it is a sin that offends God

Is this the official stance of catholicism?
From which works did you guys derive this from?
And to get a little deeper how is man to know exactly what offends God?

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

Is this the official stance of catholicism?
From which works did you guys derive this from?
And to get a little deeper how is man to know exactly what offends God?

The basis for what is or is not "grave matter" is the Ten Commandments, and also any specific things Jesus commands us to do.

 

[Rhamiel]

Is this the official stance of catholicism?
From which works did you guys derive this from?
And to get a little deeper how is man to know exactly what offends God?

that is one problem I have with the Catholic Church, every priest I have gone to has been so unclear about what s mortal sin and what is venial sin.
I mean this is my salvation we are talking about, or if I am in a fit state to recieve the Eucharist, this should be so clear that I will never be confused about this topic

 

[simonthezealot]

that is one problem I have with the Catholic Church, every priest I have gone to has been so unclear about what s mortal sin and what is venial sin.
I mean this is my salvation we are talking about, or if I am in a fit state to recieve the Eucharist, this should be so clear that I will never be confused about this topic

I have wondered b4 and even asked at CAf if there was a list of which sins were mortal...I don't recall any straight forward answers.

 

[Polycarp1]

I have wondered b4 and even asked at CAf if there was a list of which sins were mortal...I don't recall any straight forward answers.

You've been given a definition of what constitutes a mortal sin in Catholic moral theology -- and intent plays a major role. It's like saying, "What's a capital crime, punishable by death? Give me a list." Well, not every instance of taking a life, much less any other offense, is necessarily a crime punishable by the death penalty -- various states have various laws, but intent is always a factor in making the decision on specific cases.

God, who knows our hearts, reads what our intent is, and judges accordingly.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

I have wondered b4 and even asked at CAf if there was a list of which sins were mortal...I don't recall any straight forward answers.

Well, a little common sense has to kick in. Murder, Rape, Theft, etc.. are obviously mortal. Getting mad at someone and calling them as a-hole in the heat of the moment is more venial. As for the middle ground, one uses the guidlinhes set forth in the Catechism, and then ultimately, your own conscience. Its not that complicated.

 

[packermann]

Is this the official stance of catholicism?
From which works did you guys derive this from?

If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him.

*CCC - 1793


Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors

*CCC - 1735

The imputability or responsibility for an action can be diminished or nullified by ignorance, duress, fear, and other psychological or social factors

*CCC - 1746


Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice

*CCC - 1859

*The Catechism of the Catholic Church or CCC, is an official exposition of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. It was first published in Latin and French in 1992 by the authority of Pope John Paul II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechism_of_the_Catholic_Church

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Is this the official stance of catholicism?
From which works did you guys derive this from?
And to get a little deeper how is man to know exactly what offends God?

Yes

Not woprks but GOD

By going to the Church which is the Pillar and Foundation of all truth