Carnivores and the Fall

[Assyrian]

So why didn't the disciples find Christ's dead corpse in the tomb along with the rolled up graveclothes?

 

[shernren]

Of course they did.

No wonder they were so confused when Jesus' heavenly body walked in through the locked doors.

Jesus: Peace out, guys - what's wrong with you all? You look like you've just seen a ghost.

 

[Assyrian]

So what happened when Jesus' heavenly body, composed of completely different material to our present periodic table of elements, ate that fish?

 

[Jig]

If God really created the universe rapidly a few thousand years ago, as scientists on hand to examine creation, wouldn't we have been able to verify that the universe is indeed young similarly by naturalistic methods?

I didn't want to comment again on this thread, but I'll say this:

When Jesus turned water into fine table wine INSTANTLY in Canna would modern scientists (if on hand) be able to verify (using naturalistic methods) that the alcoholic grape juice didn't actaully go through the 6-12 month time period for the fermentation process?

Simple answer: No. The wine would be in reality only mere seconds old, not many months old.

Age is subjective.

 

[GenemZ]

So what happened when Jesus' heavenly body, composed of completely different material to our present periodic table of elements, ate that fish?

Even heavenly angels can eat human food. But, they are not of this earth.

Genesis 18 :7-8

"Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree."
​

Of those who ate, two were the angels who later went to destroy Sodom. The other was the pre-incarnate Lord appearing as the Angel of Jehovah. In heaven angels do not live in a material world as we know it. Just like man who wears an aqua lung can breath under water, that does not mean man was designed for living under water. God made angels adaptable to time and space of the material world.

2 Corinthians 4:18
"So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."
​

The invisible reality we can not now see in Heaven holds absolute value and substance. The material sphere we now live in varies in a world of relative values. In Heaven something will not hold greater value than another, as far as what will be perceived as heavenly material. Nothing ages. Nothing perishes. Nothing is better than another.


In Christ, GeneZ


.

 

[Assyrian]

Even heavenly angels can eat human food. But, they are not of this earth.


Genesis 18 :7-8
"Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree."

Touché

 

[Assyrian]

I didn't want to comment again on this thread, but I'll say this:

When Jesus turned water into fine table wine INSTANTLY in Canna would modern scientists (if on hand) be able to verify (using naturalistic methods) that the alcoholic grape juice didn't actaully go through the 6-12 month time period for the fermentation process?

Simple answer: No. The wine would be in reality only mere seconds old, not many months old.

Age is subjective.

Did Jesus also create a vineyard, shipping labels, wine dealer's receipts, account books and tax records? Or did his miracle just involve making what was necessary for a very good wine? What we have with evolution and the age of the earth is not just functioning animals and rocks, we also have an abundance of detail that chronicles the history of life on earth, that is completely unnecessary for the functioning of life today. What does the our ecosystem need with fossils in nested hierarchies, precise ratios of radiometric isotopes in the rock, matching endogenous retroviral insertions in different created kinds, the same broken vitamin C production gene in apes and humans... the list goes on and on.

The other problem with you analogy is that Jesus created wine, a substance that shows signs of ageing because that is how wine is made. Jesus wanted to create good wine for the guests to drink, but that presupposes there is such a thing as wine, grapes grown in a vineyard, picked, crushed, poured into amphora and allowed mature. Your analogy presupposes there is such a thing as evolution and deep time geological history for God's instant creation to replicate. At very least you have God considering what life on earth would look like if the earth had undergone billions of years of geological processes and evolution and then creating world that looked just like that. Sounds to me as if God likes the idea of evolution a whole lot more that Creationists do.

 

[shernren]

Even heavenly angels can eat human food. But, they are not of this earth.

Like Cameron eating apples?

[insert picture of the hottest Terminator ever chomping down on human food.]

 

[GenemZ]

Did Jesus also create a vineyard, shipping labels, wine dealer's receipts, account books and tax records?

Jesus created the minds to conceive of such things. And, he created the need for them.

Or did his miracle just involve making what was necessary for a very good wine? What we have with evolution and the age of the earth is not just functioning animals and rocks, we also have an abundance of detail that chronicles the history of life on earth, that is completely unnecessary for the functioning of life today.

Since you brought it up. I wonder. If someone could analyze that wine in a lab? Would they not say it was aged? For, it was a finest vintage! Yet? It was created instantly!

I can just picture a scientist arguing that the wine must be at least five years old! And, the Young wine creationist insisting it was only a few hours old! Who would be correct?

 

[juvenissun]

Did Jesus also create a vineyard, shipping labels, wine dealer's receipts, account books and tax records? Or did his miracle just involve making what was necessary for a very good wine? What we have with evolution and the age of the earth is not just functioning animals and rocks, we also have an abundance of detail that chronicles the history of life on earth, that is completely unnecessary for the functioning of life today. What does the our ecosystem need with fossils in nested hierarchies, precise ratios of radiometric isotopes in the rock, matching endogenous retroviral insertions in different created kinds, the same broken vitamin C production gene in apes and humans... the list goes on and on.

The other problem with you analogy is that Jesus created wine, a substance that shows signs of ageing because that is how wine is made. Jesus wanted to create good wine for the guests to drink, but that presupposes there is such a thing as wine, grapes grown in a vineyard, picked, crushed, poured into amphora and allowed mature. Your analogy presupposes there is such a thing as evolution and deep time geological history for God's instant creation to replicate. At very least you have God considering what life on earth would look like if the earth had undergone billions of years of geological processes and evolution and then creating world that looked just like that. Sounds to me as if God likes the idea of evolution a whole lot more that Creationists do.

One thought came to me: Is it alright to assume that God could play fast forwarding on history? Why not? So God could make 100 million years of history(to us) go forward in 1000 years (to us, also) and still preserve every details on the physical/chemical character of the history. It is similar to that we can fast forward a video stream, but all information is still there.

This assumption could, indeed, solve the biggest problem to me about the Noah's Flood.

 

[Mallon]

One thought came to me: Is it alright to assume that God could play fast forwarding on history? Why not? So God could make 100 million years of history(to us) go forward in 1000 years (to us, also) and still preserve every details on the physical/chemical character of the history. It is similar to that we can fast forward a video stream, but all information is still there.

This assumption could, indeed, solve the biggest problem to me about the Noah's Flood.

Or you could just imagine that God created all those sediments and fossils in situ, which would also solve the problem.
Or you could just imagine that we're all just sharing the same hallucination and that fossils do not, in fact, really exist. Kinda like the matrix. Again, problem solved.
Solving problems with creation science is fun!

 

[Assyrian]

Jesus created the minds to conceive of such things. And, he created the need for them.

Since you brought it up. I wonder. If someone could analyze that wine in a lab? Would they not say it was aged? For, it was a finest vintage! Yet? It was created instantly!

I can just picture a scientist arguing that the wine must be at least five years old! And, the Young wine creationist insisting it was only a few hours old! Who would be correct?

I didn't bring it up, Jig did, and you are simply repeating his point which I replied to.

 

[Assyrian]

One thought came to me: Is it alright to assume that God could play fast forwarding on history? Why not? So God could make 100 million years of history(to us) go forward in 1000 years (to us, also) and still preserve every details on the physical/chemical character of the history. It is similar to that we can fast forward a video stream, but all information is still there.

This assumption could, indeed, solve the biggest problem to me about the Noah's Flood.

Well humans only appear at the very end of the 4.45 billion year history of the earth, so we share the same rate of passage of time as the earth and the rest of the universe. Of course you can you can claim the real passage of time is from God's perspective, but as far as the earth is concerned, its inhabitants, and its radioactive isotopes, the 4.45 billion years passed by in 4.45 billion years as measured in this universe. What this is really is saying is that from God's perspective this has only been a few days. Which is what Moses told us all along in Psalm 90.

 

[juvenissun]

Well humans only appear at the very end of the 4.45 billion year history of the earth, so we share the same rate of passage of time as the earth and the rest of the universe. Of course you can you can claim the real passage of time is from God's perspective, but as far as the earth is concerned, its inhabitants, and its radioactive isotopes, the 4.45 billion years passed by in 4.45 billion years as measured in this universe. What this is really is saying is that from God's perspective this has only been a few days. Which is what Moses told us all along in Psalm 90.

Exactly. So, how old is the earth? If both figures were valid, which one is "more" true? Consider that the 4.5 b.y. time is only valid to us when we are alive, not valid (to us) even before we were born.

 

[juvenissun]

Or you could just imagine that God created all those sediments and fossils in situ, which would also solve the problem.
Or you could just imagine that we're all just sharing the same hallucination and that fossils do not, in fact, really exist. Kinda like the matrix. Again, problem solved.
Solving problems with creation science is fun!

I could. But people (include you) will criticize that God lies to us. Which, to a certain degree, is a valid argument.

Well, we could imagine anything and assume it is true. But the key is that we need to build a lot of things upon this imagination. That won't be easy if the imagination is not set right at the beginning. You may call it creation science. But atheist would call it modeling. It is essentially the same thing.

 

[Jig]

Or you could just imagine that God created all those sediments and fossils in situ, which would also solve the problem.
Or you could just imagine that we're all just sharing the same hallucination and that fossils do not, in fact, really exist. Kinda like the matrix. Again, problem solved.
Solving problems with creation science is fun!

Quite making me want to post! I truely need to leave this thread, I'm becoming a zombie in front of my computer.

Most YEC positions state that the sediment layers and the encapsulated fossils are due to the global Noahic flood. They have nothing to do with God's original creative process.

God made the universe and our home planet mature. The cataclysmic worldwide deluge caused the so-called "appearance" of age when viewed under uniformitiarian assumptions. When this evidence is viewed under the assumption of catastrophism, their no longer is an "appearence of age". Like I said before, age is purely subjective.

This is one of the reasons I dislike using the terms 'young' and 'old' to discribe creation. All we currently observe is a 'mature' creation that has had 'changes' take place. Whether these changes are due to uniform progression or sudden catastrophe is all speculation from a scientific view point. All conclusions become conjecture.

We observe and experiment in the present. The ONLY possible way to know what happened in the past is to have observed it then. Thus, only an eye-witness account of the past suffices.

Genesis is the account of HOW God created. God did it in six days by divine fiat.

 

[shernren]

Quite making me want to post! I truely need to leave this thread, I'm becoming a zombie in front of my computer.

 

[Assyrian]

Exactly. So, how old is the earth? If both figures were valid, which one is "more" true? Consider that the 4.5 b.y. time is only valid to us when we are alive, not valid (to us) even before we were born.

If both are valid why would you consider one more true? I am not sure what debates about the pre-existence of the soul have to do with the issue. What we can say is that the 4.45 billion years is valid within the universe God created. Should be good enough for us. OTOH, the validity of the shorter framework depends on correctly understanding the statements and very experience of one who said, Isaiah 55:8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. One who has been know to use the odd metaphor in communicating with us timebound humans.

 

[Mallon]

Most YEC positions state that the sediment layers and the encapsulated fossils are due to the global Noahic flood.

I realize that. As you can probably tell, though, juvie isn't like most YECs.

We observe and experiment in the present. The ONLY possible way to know what happened in the past is to have observed it then. Thus, only an eye-witness account of the past suffices.

And yet we put murderers in jail every day on the basis of forensic evidence of events that happened in the past.
Would you therefore advocate we release all these people from jail because their murders cannot be repeated? Let's explore this analogy.

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

The Bible presents 5 arguments against theistic evolution:

1. Genesis 1:31 God saw everything was very good, the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Also Exodus 20:8-11 Presents the edict analogy, the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2. Genesis 1:11-12, 22-22, 24-25 God established physical laws governing the propagation of species.

3. Genesis 1:26-28, Psalm 8:5-9, Psalm 139:13-18 God made man in his image and likeness, man's quantitative superiority over apes, chimps, and all animals. (What are the odds on darwinian evolution in statistically succeeding even theistic evolution speaking in making man in God's image and likeness?)

4. Matthew 5:3-11 Darwinian evolution and it's eternal brutality, the neverending struggle, death, and extinction is contrary to God evident by Lord Jesus' ethics and morals presented during the Sermon on the Mount.

5. Genesis 2:1-3 Creation is finished. Evolution begs to differ and theistic evolution dictates creation will never finish.