From Where do the RCC and the EOC get the Authority they claim for themselves?

[racer]

Or Chrysostom who said:

"At all events the master of the whole world, Peter, to whose hands He committed the keys of heaven, whom He commanded to do and to bear all, He bade tarry here [Antioch] for a long period. Thus in His sight our city was equivalent to the whole world. But since I have mentioned Peter, I have perceived a fifth crown woven from him, and this is that this man [Ignatius of Antioch] succeeded to the office after him. For just as any one taking a great stone from a foundation hastens by all means to introduce an equivalent to it, lest he should shake the whole building, and make it more unsound, so, accordingly, when Peter was about to depart from here, the grace of the Spirit introduced another teacher equivalent to Peter, so that the building already completed should not be made more unsound by the insignificance of the successor." (Homily on St. Ignatius, 4)

Here it looks like Chrysostom is saying that Ignatius succeeded to the office after Peter.

What about here:

"Peter, James, and John, were both first called, and held a primacy among the disciples" (Commentary on Galatians, 1, vv. 1-3)

"Wherefore doth He take with Him these only [Matthew 17:1]? Because these were superior to the rest. And Peter indeed showed his superiority by exceedingly loving Him; but John by being exceedingly loved of Him; and James again by his answer which he answered with his brother, saying, 'We are able to drink the cup'; nor yet by his answer only, but also by his works; both by the rest of them, and by fulfilling, what he said. For so earnest was he, and grievous to the Jews, that Herod himself supposed that he had bestowed herein a very great favor on the Jews, I mean in slaying him." (Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew, 56:2)

 

[chestertonrules]

Chrysostom who said this:

"James was invested with the chief rule [in Acts 15], and think it no hardship. So clean was their soul from love of glory. 'And after that they had held their peace, James answered,' etc. (v. 13.) Peter indeed spoke more strongly, but James here more mildly: for thus it behooves one in high authority, to leave what is unpleasant for others to say, while he himself appears in the milder part." (Chrysostom, Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, 33)

St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople (c. 387):
Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles, the First in the Church, the Friend of Christ, who received a revelation, not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, 'Blessed art thou, &c.' This very Peter and when I name Peter I name that unbroken Rock, that firm Foundation, the Great Apostle, First of the disciples, the First called, and the First who obeyed he was guilty ...even denying the Lord." (Chrysostom, T. ii. Hom)


Peter, the Leader of the choir of Apostles, the Mouth of the disciples, the Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the faith, the Foundation of the confession, the Fisherman of the universe. (Chrysostom, T. iii Hom).

Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church. (Chrys. In illud hoc Scitote)

(Peter), the foundation of the Church, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the Apostles, the vehement lover of Christ ...he who ran throughout the whole world, who fished the whole world; this holy Coryphaeus of the blessed choir; the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world. (De Eleemos, iii. 4; Hom. de decem mille tal. 3)


In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples (Acts 15), both as being ardent, and as intrusted by Christ with the flock ...he first acts with authority in the matter, as having all put into his hands ; for to him Christ said, 'And thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren. (Chrysostom, Hom. iii Act Apost. tom. ix.)


He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ' 'Simon, Simon,' etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2). God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: 'Simon, Simon, etc.' (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in Joan 5). And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15). He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18). And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren, ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world. (Chrysostom, In Joan. Hom. 1xxxviii. n. 1, tom. viii)

 

[prodromos]

I'll cite some passages and you tell me if they support my position as to what Jesus understood and instructed.

I'll do my best.

1) I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven;

Matthew 16:19. This is a promise made by Christ which is not fulfilled until all the disciples receive the same, so it is not something unique to Peter. Christ tells the other disciples the same in Matthew 18:18 but the promise was not realised until Pentecost. Just in case you wish to dispute that Mather 18:18 speaks of the keys, know that you would be going against those whom you consider to be "Doctors" of the Church.
St Jerome

"...elsewhere the same is attributed to all the apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the church depends on them all alike". (Epistle 146.1)​

St Augustine

"This refers to the keys about which it is said "whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" -(Sermon III/8)​

St John Chrysostom

"The keys of the heavens, that whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" -(Homily 54.2-3.)​

2) that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

I really don't see where you want to go with this. I have read and reread the prayer which is John 17 and fail to see anything which supports the Papacy. Of verse 21 which you quote, St John Chrysostom says the following:

"That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I in You."

Here again the "as" does not denote exact similarity in their case, (for it was not possible for them in so great a degree,) but only as far as was possible for men. Just as when He says "Be merciful, as your Father." Luke 6:36

But what is, "In Us"? In the faith which is on Us. Because nothing so offends all men as divisions, He provides that they should be one. "What then," says some one, "did He effect this?" Certainly He effected it. For all who believe through the Apostles are one, though some from among them were torn away. Nor did this escape His knowledge, He even foretold it, and showed that it proceeded from men's slack-mindedness.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240182.htm​

You can also read St Augustine's homily on the verse you quoted here: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701110.htm

3) They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

1 Peter 5:1-4
So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; 3not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.​

According to Peter, the chief shepherd is Christ, with many others acting as shepherds

4) To Peter, holder of the Keys:

Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

I think it is worth noting that Peter was not "holder of the Keys" when Christ spoke these words to him. The Keys were not received until Pentecost. Apart from that you have the comments from my earlier response which you haven't answered.

I await your response.

John

 

[prodromos]

St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople (c. 387):
Peter himself the Head or Crown of the Apostles, the First in the Church, the Friend of Christ, who received a revelation, not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, 'Blessed art thou, &c.' This very Peter and when I name Peter I name that unbroken Rock, that firm Foundation, the Great Apostle, First of the disciples, the First called, and the First who obeyed he was guilty ...even denying the Lord." (Chrysostom, T. ii. Hom)


Peter, the Leader of the choir of Apostles, the Mouth of the disciples, the Pillar of the Church, the Buttress of the faith, the Foundation of the confession, the Fisherman of the universe. (Chrysostom, T. iii Hom).

Peter, that Leader of the choir, that Mouth of the rest of the Apostles, that Head of the brotherhood, that one set over the entire universe, that Foundation of the Church. (Chrys. In illud hoc Scitote)

(Peter), the foundation of the Church, the Coryphaeus of the choir of the Apostles, the vehement lover of Christ ...he who ran throughout the whole world, who fished the whole world; this holy Coryphaeus of the blessed choir; the ardent disciple, who was entrusted with the keys of heaven, who received the spiritual revelation. Peter, the mouth of all Apostles, the head of that company, the ruler of the whole world. (De Eleemos, iii. 4; Hom. de decem mille tal. 3)


In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples (Acts 15), both as being ardent, and as intrusted by Christ with the flock ...he first acts with authority in the matter, as having all put into his hands ; for to him Christ said, 'And thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren. (Chrysostom, Hom. iii Act Apost. tom. ix.)


He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ' 'Simon, Simon,' etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2). God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: 'Simon, Simon, etc.' (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in Joan 5). And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15). He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18). And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren, ...and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, 'How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,' this I would answer that He appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world. (Chrysostom, In Joan. Hom. 1xxxviii. n. 1, tom. viii)

Note that nowhere in the above quotes does St John Chrysostom equate Peter with the Pope of Rome. For the best part of his life he was not even in communion with the church in Rome and not once did he speak of it as a cause for concern.

John

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Note that nowhere in the above quotes does St John Chrysostom equate Peter with the Pope of Rome. For the best part of his life he was not even in communion with the church in Rome and not once did he speak of it as a cause for concern.

John

When was he in communion with the Roman church?

 

[prodromos]

When was he in communion with the Roman church?

From the year 398 until his death in 407, nine years. From the year 370 when he was ordained a reader by Meletius, through 381 when he was ordained a deacon by the same, followed by 386 when he was ordained a priest by Meletius' successor Flavian, neither of whom were recognised by Rome, St John Chrysostom was not in communion with Rome. In those 28 years we see nothing in his writing which suggests he thought it was a cause for concern.

John

 

[chestertonrules]

I'll do my best.
Matthew 16:19. This is a promise made by Christ which is not fulfilled until all the disciples receive the same, so it is not something unique to Peter. Christ tells the other disciples the same in Matthew 18:18 but the promise was not realised until Pentecost. Just in case you wish to dispute that Mather 18:18 speaks of the keys, know that you would be going against those whom you consider to be "Doctors" of the Church.

St Jerome

"...elsewhere the same is attributed to all the apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the church depends on them all alike". (Epistle 146.1)
​

St Augustine

"This refers to the keys about which it is said "whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" -(Sermon III/8)
​

St John Chrysostom

"The keys of the heavens, that whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" -(Homily 54.2-3.)
​

I really don't see where you want to go with this. I have read and reread the prayer which is John 17 and fail to see anything which supports the Papacy. Of verse 21 which you quote, St John Chrysostom says the following:

"That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I in You."

Here again the "as" does not denote exact similarity in their case, (for it was not possible for them in so great a degree,) but only as far as was possible for men. Just as when He says "Be merciful, as your Father." Luke 6:36

But what is, "In Us"? In the faith which is on Us. Because nothing so offends all men as divisions, He provides that they should be one. "What then," says some one, "did He effect this?" Certainly He effected it. For all who believe through the Apostles are one, though some from among them were torn away. Nor did this escape His knowledge, He even foretold it, and showed that it proceeded from men's slack-mindedness.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240182.htm
​

You can also read St Augustine's homily on the verse you quoted here: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701110.htm

1 Peter 5:1-4
So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; 3not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
​

According to Peter, the chief shepherd is Christ, with many others acting as shepherds
I think it is worth noting that Peter was not "holder of the Keys" when Christ spoke these words to him. The Keys were not received until Pentecost. Apart from that you have the comments from my earlier response which you haven't answered.

I await your response.

John

I have to go, but I'll shoot one over your bow on my way out(not fair, I know) I'll have to look into Jerome's understanding of the keys in more detail, but his acceptance of the papacy is not in dispute.

I'll try to address your post in more detail later.



St. Jerome
"[Pope] Stephen . . . was the blessed Peter’s twenty-second successor in the See of Rome" (Against the Luciferians 23 [A.D. 383]).


"Clement, of whom the apostle Paul writing to the Philippians says ‘With Clement and others of my fellow-workers whose names are written in the book of life,’ the fourth bishop of Rome after Peter, if indeed the second was Linus and the third Anacletus, although most of the Latins think that Clement was second after the apostle" (Lives of Illustrious Men 15 [A.D. 396]).

"Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord . . . I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church [Rome] whose faith has been praised by Paul [Rom. 1:8]. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. . . . Evil children have squandered their patrimony; you alone keep your heritage intact" (Letters 15:1 [A.D. 396]).

...
"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (ibid., 15:2).

"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

...
"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (ibid., 15:2).

Matthew 24:38 For as they were in the days, those, to-the before the flood eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until which day entered Noah into the Ark,
39 and not they know until came the deludge and lifts/takes-up/hren <142> (5656) All. Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man. [Luke 17:26, 27]

Reve 10:5 And the Messenger whom I saw having stood upon the Sea and upon the Land lifts/hren <142> (5656) the hand of Him [*the right] into the heaven.....[Daniel 12:7]

142. airo ah'-ee-ro a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

 

[Standing Up]

Gen. 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

 

[prodromos]

I'll have to look into Jerome's understanding of the keys in more detail, but his acceptance of the papacy is not in dispute.

I would dispute that Jerome would accept the Papacy as it has become.

St. Jerome
"[Pope] Stephen . . . was the blessed Peter’s twenty-second successor in the See of Rome" (Against the Luciferians 23 [A.D. 383]).

"Clement, of whom the apostle Paul writing to the Philippians says ‘With Clement and others of my fellow-workers whose names are written in the book of life,’ the fourth bishop of Rome after Peter, if indeed the second was Linus and the third Anacletus, although most of the Latins think that Clement was second after the apostle" (Lives of Illustrious Men 15 [A.D. 396]).

The fact that Peter and Paul were in Rome and that later bishops succeeded them there is not in any dispute.

"Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord . . . I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church [Rome] whose faith has been praised by Paul [Rom. 1:8]. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. . . . Evil children have squandered their patrimony; you alone keep your heritage intact" (Letters 15:1 [A.D. 396]).

...
"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (ibid., 15:2).

"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).

Jerome wrote at a time when the bishops of Rome were staunchly orthodox. Why do you think many of the early bishops of Rome are listed in the synaxarion* of the Orthodox Church?

*lives of the saints

 

[Standing Up]

Clement the 4th bishop of Rome wrote this:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm chapter 25: Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phœnix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the deed bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology) Originally, the phoenix was identified by the Egyptians as a stork or heron-like bird called a benu, known from the Book of the Dead and other Egyptian texts as one of the sacred symbols of worship at Heliopolis, closely associated with the rising sun and the Egyptian sun-god Ra.

What do you do with this?

 

[chestertonrules]

I would dispute that Jerome would accept the Papacy as it has become.
The fact that Peter and Paul were in Rome and that later bishops succeeded them there is not in any dispute.
Jerome wrote at a time when the bishops of Rome were staunchly orthodox. Why do you think many of the early bishops of Rome are listed in the synaxarion* of the Orthodox Church?

*lives of the saints

Or a time when the Orthodox were staunchly Catholic?

I think that the hierarchy of the Church, with the pope at the top, is mandatory for Christian unity.

There is no unity unless there is a single authority.

I think it is clear that Jerome believed in this unity based on the successor of Peter.

 

[chestertonrules]

]"...elsewhere the same is attributed to all the apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the church depends on them all alike". (Epistle 146.1)

"'But you say, the Church is founded upon Peter,' and replies: "Although the same is done in another place upon all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church is made solid upon them all equally, yet one of them is elected among the twelve, that by the setting up of a head the occasion of schism may be removed.

The rest of the story.

I know that this was probably not your intention, but whoever posted this quote as you found it was attempting to distort Jerome's view.

 

[Thekla]

m hm, first among equals.

(Does the RC accept the writings of St. John the Chrysostom produced while he was not in communion with Rome ?)

 

[chestertonrules]

m hm, first among equals.

(Does the RC accept the writings of St. John the Chrysostom produced while he was not in communion with Rome ?)

There is no proof that was ever not in communion with Rome.

It is an assumption.


A question for you.

If the Catholic Church chose an Eastern Patriarch to be the next pope, could the Church be unified?

 

[Thekla]

There is no proof that was ever not in communion with Rome.

It is an assumption.


A question for you.

If the Catholic Church chose an Eastern Patriarch to be the next pope, could the Church be unified?

See posts by Prodromos.

If an EO Patriarch became pope under the current RC definition of the role etc., then no.

 

[chestertonrules]

See posts by Prodromos.

If an EO Patriarch became pope under the current RC definition of the role etc., then no.

I saw his post. It provided no proof.


It's a shame that you feel that way.

Can you concede that unity will never occur without a single leader accepted by all Christians?

 

[sunlover1]

There is no unity unless there is a single authority.

Good to see you CR!

We already have a single authority ... Jesus.

So much for that theory (JK)
although I can understand why you say that.
What is 'unity'?

 

[sunlover1]

Can you concede that unity will never occur without a single leader accepted by all Christians?

Again, we already have a 'single' leader.

 

[Rick Otto]

m hm, first among equals.

All for one & one for all...