If being homosexual is a sin, then why did God create homosexuals?

[Wade Smith]

I agree, I can't stand when human beings do unnatural things.

Like fly around in those silly jet contraptions. If man was meant to fly we'd be born with wings.

And driving around in those automobiles. If man was meant to zoom around on wheels we'd have been born with tires and internal combustion engines.

And don't get me started on clothes!

Terrible argument.

The human body is designed for a certain use, namely male-female sex.

An airplane is also designed for a certain use, which is flying.

It would be unnatural to try to dive under water in a 747. Submerging under water is not what it is designed for.


Similarly, it would be unnatural to have same sex relations, because that is not what the body is designed for.


Every person who has ever been born was the result of a heterosexual union. The only exception being Jesus, who's body was created in Mary's womb by God.

The point is, there is no such thing as a homosexual gene. The only sex relationship that can bear good fruit is that of a man and woman. Nature tells you this, if you would be so honest as to look around. Even monkeys and a "dumb ass" (donkey) know this.

A good tree cannot bear evil fruit.
A corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit.

Homosexuality is a corrupt tree.
It brings forth nothing but death.

Heterosexuality is a good tree.
It brings forth good fruit in the form of a new life.

 

[Axioma]

You're either honestly misinformed or a damned liar. Animals do engage in gay sex.

 

[SiderealExalt]

Terrible argument.

The human body is designed for a certain use, namely male-female sex.

An airplane is also designed for a certain use, which is flying.

It would be unnatural to try to dive under water in a 747. Submerging under water is not what it is designed for.

Which was probably why I was sarcastic. I'm just taking the argument in the same sort of seriousness that it deserves.

Humans are capable of all kinds of capabilities beyond our base potential. This includes sexual copulation for pleasure that involves more than simply run of the mill penis/vagina.

If people really want to make such a simplistic or idiotic comparison then I suggest they stop ALL foreplay, all oral sex, or any other sort of sexual or psuedo sexual interaction that is nothing more than the bare minimum. Notwithstanding that relationships, heterosexual or homosexual is about a hell of a lot more than sex. If someone is so stupid or obtuse to not know that, it's not the law's fault or anyone elses but their own.

Which is a hell of a lot more pertinent than bad fruit analogies or appeals to ancient hebrew tribal myths.

 

[Andreusz]

^ Well said.

 

[IzzyPop]

Terrible argument.

The human body is designed for a certain use, namely male-female sex.

An airplane is also designed for a certain use, which is flying.

It would be unnatural to try to dive under water in a 747. Submerging under water is not what it is designed for.


Similarly, it would be unnatural to have same sex relations, because that is not what the body is designed for.


Every person who has ever been born was the result of a heterosexual union. The only exception being Jesus, who's body was created in Mary's womb by God.

The point is, there is no such thing as a homosexual gene. The only sex relationship that can bear good fruit is that of a man and woman. Nature tells you this, if you would be so honest as to look around. Even monkeys and a "dumb ass" (donkey) know this.

A good tree cannot bear evil fruit.
A corrupt tree cannot bear good fruit.

Homosexuality is a corrupt tree.
It brings forth nothing but death.

Heterosexuality is a good tree.
It brings forth good fruit in the form of a new life.

Hmmmm...So my homosexual parents bore bad fruit, eh? Nice to know that you can judge me without even knowing me. Must be one of the perks of have a God that whispers into your ear.

 

[larry_boy_44]

The question isn't "why did God create <insert something here>"...

There really should be a few questions:

(first, note: This is all written with the assumption God exists. I am fully aware that if God doesn't exist this is all meaningless. So, please, save us all the time of answering "well, we don't even know if God exists, so THERE!!" because its really lame and does nothing but take away from the conversation. Most of us are aware of the possibility that we are wrong, even if we believe absolutely that we are correct in our beliefs)

1. Why do we assume God intended us to be anyway just because we are, now, that way? Just because people murder, doesn't mean God intended us to murder people. Just because medicine gets people high, doesn't mean God intended for it to be used that way. Just because you have feelings for and get pleasure from the same gender, doesn't necessarily mean God intended for you to be that way.

2. Who are we to say what is natural and what is unnatural?

3. Either way, who are we to say why God does anything??

4. What does the effect of "the fall" have on this?

I'm sure there are more, too, but the question "why did God create homosexuals if homosexuality is a sin?" is an incredibly short-sighted, arrogant, and self-centred question to ask. You would never ask such a thing if you or someone you were close to were not gay and you were not trying to justify it.

 

[OllieFranz]

You would never ask such a thing if you or someone you were close to were not gay and you were not trying to justify it.

Or unless the Bible, quoting Jesus own words, said so: Matthew 19:12

 

[Wade Smith]

Or unless the Bible, quoting Jesus own words, said so: Matthew 19:12

A eunuch is not a homosexual.

 

[OllieFranz]

A eunuch is not a homosexual.

No, but according to ancient Semitic culture, a homosexual is a "eunuch." That is why instead of just forbidding "eunuchs" from entering the Temple, Deuteronomy 23:1 specified the conditions that made one type of "eunuch" forbidden. And why the Ethiopian treasurer in Acts 8 had been worshipping in the Temple despite being a "eunuch."

 

[GhostSlug]

Nobody is born a prisoner of homosexuality. There is nothing in behavioral genetics to indicate that, but that is what they gay rights people would have you believe. The best they can do, if you're liberal with what they found, is that some people are more prone to homosexual temptations. That doesn't mean that they are locked in to being homosexual, and that's not an excuse for homosexual behavior.

Think about this. Humans are naturally selfish and prone to greed, does that make greed less of a sin? There are some people who are prone to having short and fiery tempers, does that make this behavior less of a sin? There are kleptomaniacs and nymphomaniacs out there - does that make their thieving, fornication, and adultery less sinful, or not sinful? The answer to all these questions is of course not. Homosexuality is no different. People are tempted, and sin is sin - no matter how strong the temptation is or how weak the person is.

As for the first paragraph, I recommend checking this website and resulting links. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation
I also highly recommend that you speak with a homosexual and actually listen to what they have to say. I know that I haven't spoken with every single homosexual in the world, but I have many that are close friends and family members, all of which have said that they knew they were different at an early age. Many of them also tried to change themselves for their families' religious beliefs, thus causing them to suffer from depression. I'm not saying that all cases of homosexuality are linked to one specific cause. Most likely, it's multiple factors that contribute to homosexual behavior. I would also recommend looking doing some research into Bonobo sexual behavior, and other homosexual behaviors documented within the animal kingdom.

Secondly, kleptomania and nymphomania are MENTAL ILLNESSES. These people cannot help their condition.

Kleptomania is distiguished from shoplifting/theft because they do not steal for monetary value. Most items stolen by kleptomaniacs have little to no monetary value and some may not even be aware that they committed the theft. Only 1% of all reported shoplifting are kleptomaniacs.

Nymphomania (Hyper-Sexuality) is another MENTAL ILLNESS that is often associated with Bipolar Disorder. The threshold for what constitutes hypersexuality is subject to debate, but, the consensus among those who consider this a disorder is that the threshold is met when the behavior causes distress or impaired social functioning.

Calling these people sinful because of their disorders is like calling a person with Down Syndrome a sinner because they have Down Syndrome.

 

[uberd00b]

1. Why do we assume God intended us to be anyway just because we are, now, that way? Just because people murder, doesn't mean God intended us to murder people. Just because medicine gets people high, doesn't mean God intended for it to be used that way. Just because you have feelings for and get pleasure from the same gender, doesn't necessarily mean God intended for you to be that way.

Not true. An omniscient God cannot be surprised. Add to this that God created the world and has unlimited power and the only remaining option is that everything everywhere is directly God's responsibility. There is really no other option.

2. Who are we to say what is natural and what is unnatural?

We're thinking independent entities. Though I'm sure our definitions of natural have changed we're still really the only game in town when it comes to defining stuff.

3. Either way, who are we to say why God does anything??

We're thinking independent beings, we have the right to question.

4. What does the effect of "the fall" have on this?

Whatever the creator God planned it to I guess.

I'm sure there are more, too, but the question "why did God create homosexuals if homosexuality is a sin?" is an incredibly short-sighted, arrogant, and self-centred question to ask. You would never ask such a thing if you or someone you were close to were not gay and you were not trying to justify it.

Not true. It's a very good question and points out many issues with the God concepts people hold to (eg; free will, omniscience, sin, etc).

 

[larry_boy_44]

quotes = uberd00b

Not true. An omniscient God cannot be surprised. Add to this that God created the world and has unlimited power and the only remaining option is that everything everywhere is directly God's responsibility. There is really no other option.

I didn't say he was surprised, I said it wasn't what it was made for.

In other words, God kne when he created that we would misuse whatever it was, but He still created it...

This really isn't that difficult a concept.

Everything is not God's responsibility, especially not our misuse. Besides which, who is going to put God on trial? Who is going to hold God responsible? You? There is no one who could even begin to do that.

We're thinking independent entities. Though I'm sure our definitions of natural have changed we're still really the only game in town when it comes to defining stuff.

That doesn't give us the right to say one thing is natural and another unnatural. We didn't create nature and don't have the power to decide that, only God does.

We're "the only game in town" because we're too arrogant to listen to God. Plus God's rules says things we like are bad, so we don't want them anyways.

We're thinking independent beings, we have the right to question.

No, we don't have the right to question, really. God lets us (thankfully), but we don't have a right to do anything He doesn't allow.

Besides which, that's not what I said. I said who are we to say WHY God does anything. We don't know God's intentions, we don't know his purposes, we don't know any of that.

Whatever the creator God planned it to I guess.

Sort of, yes. The point was that Creation is no longer what God intended it to be. He created a paradise that was perfect and we let sin in and it has now corrupted that perfect paradise of Creation that God created.

Not true. It's a very good question and points out many issues with the God concepts people hold to (eg; free will, omniscience, sin, etc).

It does none of those things. All it does is show that you're trying to justify sin by blaming it on God, and that doesn't work.

 

[SiderealExalt]

I didn't say he was surprised, I said it wasn't what it was made for.

In other words, God kne when he created that we would misuse whatever it was, but He still created it...

And apparently planned that very thing, and wanted it to happen.

This really isn't that difficult a concept.

Everything is not God's responsibility, especially not our misuse. Besides which, who is going to put God on trial? Who is going to hold God responsible? You? There is no one who could even begin to do that.

I hold nonexistent beings accountable for nothing. However, in the spirit of the rhetorical, and the Christian claim that God is omniscient calls into question many things.

That doesn't give us the right to say one thing is natural and another unnatural. We didn't create nature and don't have the power to decide that, only God does.

Quite a few Gods apparently created nature. Personally I'm not beholden to thinking that ancient Hebrew myths are an authority on the whole natural/unnatural discussion.

We're "the only game in town" because we're too arrogant to listen to God. Plus God's rules says things we like are bad, so we don't want them anyways.

I don't follow the assumption that Christians base their religious morality on something concrete.

No, we don't have the right to question, really. God lets us (thankfully), but we don't have a right to do anything He doesn't allow.

Besides which, that's not what I said. I said who are we to say WHY God does anything. We don't know God's intentions, we don't know his purposes, we don't know any of that.

Taking this on a rhetorical level, considering the genocidal maniac that the Bible makes God out to be, I'd call into heavy consideration what such a dangerous being's intentions or purpose is. My first thought if I knew someone was a homicidal maniac and claimed that all those killings were part of the plan would not be, let me worship this and be in awe of it's wonder.

Sort of, yes. The point was that Creation is no longer what God intended it to be. He created a paradise that was perfect and we let sin in and it has now corrupted that perfect paradise of Creation that God created.

There is no sort of with omniscience.

It does none of those things. All it does is show that you're trying to justify sin by blaming it on God, and that doesn't work.

There are no unexpected consequences with omniscience.

 

[larry_boy_44]

And apparently planned that very thing, and wanted it to happen.

No, see, the problem with giving your Creation free will is that they don't always do what you want them to (and thus make consequences for themselves).

God's plan was for Adam to stay in the Garden of Eden with Eve forever. No homosexuality there, since Adam was a guy and Eve was a girl.

I hold nonexistent beings accountable for nothing. However, in the spirit of the rhetorical, and the Christian claim that God is omniscient calls into question many things.

being omniscient doesn't mean that you caused everything. Plus if you interfere too much, it takes away our free will, thus God can only interfere at times and in ways that don't get in the way of our free will.

Quite a few Gods apparently created nature. Personally I'm not beholden to thinking that ancient Hebrew myths are an authority on the whole natural/unnatural discussion.

You don't have to be, however a thread about why the Christian God created homosexuals if its a sin is not the place to get into that kind of discussion. The whole point of this thread is assuming he exists... The fact you can't even stick with that statement prior to the discussion shows a lot about how much you even believe your side of this...

Taking this on a rhetorical level, considering the genocidal maniac that the Bible makes God out to be, I'd call into heavy consideration what such a dangerous being's intentions or purpose is. My first thought if I knew someone was a homicidal maniac and claimed that all those killings were part of the plan would not be, let me worship this and be in awe of it's wonder.

And God has given you free will to live your life that way. Realize, however, that in the end there will be consequences. However, you are free to live your life as if those consequences didn't exist.

There is no sort of with omniscience.
There are no unexpected consequences with omniscience.

All knowing doesn't mean everything goes how you planned it to go. It also doesn't mean you control every little thing everyone else does. It just simply means you know everything.

You need to go read what "omniscience" means, because it is nothing like what you think it to mean.

 

[SiderealExalt]

No, see, the problem with giving your Creation free will is that they don't always do what you want them to (and thus make consequences for themselves).

God's plan was for Adam to stay in the Garden of Eden with Eve forever. No homosexuality there, since Adam was a guy and Eve was a girl.

Omniscience and Omnipotence gets what it whats, when it wants and knows ahead of time.

being omniscient doesn't mean that you caused everything. Plus if you interfere too much, it takes away our free will, thus God can only interfere at times and in ways that don't get in the way of our free will.

Save for when God says, I created all things. Are we playing salad bar religion here?

Also, notwithstanding that omniscience and omnipotence being contradictory traits, and ones that make the concept of free will illusionary. Such a being by definition if you wanted to buy into that contradiction, would exactly how to balance it perfectly.

All knowing doesn't mean everything goes how you planned it to go. It also doesn't mean you control every little thing everyone else does. It just simply means you know everything.

Yes, actually it does. By definition. Look up the definition of the word.

If you want to play the square means triangle game, you can do it in another discuss.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Omniscience and Omnipotence gets what it whats, when it wants and knows ahead of time.

wrong. Omniscience and Omnipotence means that God CAN get what He wants, when He wants it, and knows ahead of time that He'll get it.

HOWEVER, giving us free will means that those statements are not necessarily true because he has WILLINGLY foregone some of His power so that we have the right to choose our own path.

Save for when God says, I created all things. Are we playing salad bar religion here?

Also, notwithstanding that omniscience and omnipotence being contradictory traits, and ones that make the concept of free will illusionary. Such a being by definition if you wanted to buy into that contradiction, would exactly how to balance it perfectly.

Yes, and you wouldn't know how to balance that, so you should stop making assumptions about it.

Yes, actually it does. By definition. Look up the definition of the word.

If you want to play the square means triangle game, you can do it in another discuss.

actually, you are playing that game. Omniscient means:

1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight 2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

KNOWING doesn't mean CONTROLLING. Completely different concepts.

Just like having all power doesn't mean He uses all of His power all the time.

 

[WatersMoon110]

wrong. Omniscience and Omnipotence means that God CAN get what He wants, when He wants it, and knows ahead of time that He'll get it.

HOWEVER, giving us free will means that those statements are not necessarily true because he has WILLINGLY foregone some of His power so that we have the right to choose our own path.

If God is all knowing and all powerful, that means he knows everything. Including all that has happened or will happen. That means He knows exactly what we are going to do, long before we make them. Thus, we cannot have free will, because it is already known what choices we will make.

If everything is already known (and to be all knowing, God would need to know "the future" from our perspective), then we are not free to make any other choices beyond those God already knows we are going to make. If God is truly all knowing, we cannot also have free will.

 

[larry_boy_44]

If God is all knowing and all powerful, that means he knows everything. Including all that has happened or will happen. That means He knows exactly what we are going to do, long before we make them. Thus, we cannot have free will, because it is already known what choices we will make.

If everything is already known (and to be all knowing, God would need to know "the future" from our perspective), then we are not free to make any other choices beyond those God already knows we are going to make. If God is truly all knowing, we cannot also have free will.

the faulty part of your argument is the assumption that God's perspective resembles ours... It doesn't necessarily, and thus it is possible that God, with some other perspective on the activities on earth, knows everything while we still have free will.

God <> man

stop assuming that He is essentially a man, and you'll get further in these discussions...

 

[SiderealExalt]

wrong. Omniscience and Omnipotence means that God CAN get what He wants, when He wants it, and knows ahead of time that He'll get it.

HOWEVER, giving us free will means that those statements are not necessarily true because he has WILLINGLY foregone some of His power so that we have the right to choose our own path.

Yes, and you wouldn't know how to balance that, so you should stop making assumptions about it.

A. You're talking rhetoricals. B. You're saying words don't mean what they do mean. and C. I don't make assumptions about nonexistent myth figures.

KNOWING doesn't mean CONTROLLING. Completely different concepts.

Just like having all power doesn't mean He uses all of His power all the time.

If you don't know why omniscience makes free will illusionary, then you do not understand what you are talking about.

Again, look up what those words mean. If there is an if involved, it does not follow the definition of the word.

 

[uberd00b]

Everything is not God's responsibility, especially not our misuse.

But that's just the point, it must be. Nothing can happen which an omnipotent God does not allow to happen, and nothing can happen that an omniscient omnipotent God did not plan because he knows what will happen. Had he wanted a different outcome it would have been different.

Besides which, who is going to put God on trial? Who is going to hold God responsible? You? There is no one who could even begin to do that.

That's irrelevant really, the point is that the question "Why would God create homosexuals?" is valid from the premise of an omnipotent omniscient God.

The question expands to the more general "why would God create sinners only to punish them?". It's one of the problems thrown up by omniscience.

That doesn't give us the right to say one thing is natural and another unnatural. We didn't create nature and don't have the power to decide that, only God does.

I don't see, given that we're quite capable of making such a judgment, why we shouldn't make it. Though actually, as an aside, if this universe required the direct intervention of God wouldn't that make it unnatural anyway?

We're "the only game in town" because we're too arrogant to listen to God. Plus God's rules says things we like are bad, so we don't want them anyways.

What I mean is, no one else is going to define it for us (or at least they haven't yet).

No, we don't have the right to question, really. God lets us (thankfully), but we don't have a right to do anything He doesn't allow.

I really don't see why not. We're capable of questioning, so why shouldn't we?

Besides which, that's not what I said. I said who are we to say WHY God does anything. We don't know God's intentions, we don't know his purposes, we don't know any of that.

So we shouldn't guess? Shouldn't examine them?

Sort of, yes. The point was that Creation is no longer what God intended it to be.

Impossible, God is omnipotent, nothing can happen that he did not allow to happen. He is omniscient, nothing can happen that he did not will to happen

He created a paradise that was perfect and we let sin in and it has now corrupted that perfect paradise of Creation that God created.

Doh! He really should have seen that coming eh?



It does none of those things. All it does is show that you're trying to justify sin by blaming it on God, and that doesn't work.[/quote]