Biblical support for gay sex? A simple question

[Dogbean]

Its wrong because the Bible SEZ!

Why does the Bible say it?

Because its wrong!

Because God said so, and because He is God. Isn't that good enough? God does not need a reason. He's God! And who is mankind to question God? I know there are things in the Bible that are tough to take, but that's just the way it is. God does not have to answer to His creation!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Because God said so, and because He is God. Isn't that good enough? God does not need a reason. He's God! And who is mankind to question God? I know there are things in the Bible that are tough to take, but that's just the way it is. God does not have to answer to His creation!

Is this sarcasm?

I don't believe God "says so" about anything that is not logical and explicable. Ever.

So, if the Bible can be interpreted in two ways, one which has a logical explanation, and one which doesn't, I'll take the logical explanation version every time.

And since no one can come up with a logical reason to condemn homosexual activity, I reject the various interpretations of the Bible that condemn it.

 

[KCKID]

Is this sarcasm?

I don't believe God "says so" about anything that is not logical and explicable. Ever.

So, if the Bible can be interpreted in two ways, one which has a logical explanation, and one which doesn't, I'll take the logical explanation version every time.

And since no one can come up with a logical reason to condemn homosexual activity, I reject the various interpretations of the Bible that condemn it.

That seems fair enough. As long as Christians are SO adamant that God says that homosexuality is such a 'grave sin' then they should be able to offer a reasonable explanation as to WHY God considers homosexuality to be such a 'grave sin'.

I have my own views on this but I'd first like to hear from others.

 

[Dogbean]

Is this sarcasm?
I don't believe God "says so" about anything that is not logical and explicable. Ever.
So, if the Bible can be interpreted in two ways, one which has a logical explanation, and one which doesn't, I'll take the logical explanation version every time.
And since no one can come up with a logical reason to condemn homosexual activity, I reject the various interpretations of the Bible that condemn it.

Sarcasm? Absolutely not. I'm dead serious. It sure is convenient for you to "reject" the interpretations that condemn the sin you still want to hold onto. As I said, the all knowing, all powerful creater of the universe does not have to answer to you.

I'm a military officer. Suppose the President, who is the highest person in my chain of command, told me to do something. How well do you think it would go over if I said "I'm not going to obey unless you tell me why you want me to do that." My military career would end within seconds!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Sarcasm? Absolutely not. I'm dead serious. It sure is convenient for you to "reject" the interpretations that condemn the sin you still want to hold onto. As I said, the all knowing, all powerful creater of the universe does not have to answer to you.

I'm a military officer. Suppose the President, who is the highest person in my chain of command, told me to do something. How well do you think it would go over if I said "I'm not going to obey unless you tell me why you want me to do that." My military career would end within seconds!

"just following orders" hasn't been a valid defence for some, oh, 63 odd years?

I would sincerely hope that if you recieved orders that didn't seem logical to you, you would attempt to determine the logic behind them.

Further, such sanctimonious "God doesn't answer to you" assertions aside... how come the condemnation of homosexuality is the ONLY illogical command still extant today? Any other condemnation or moral rule that comes from a Christian position can be logically explained... EXCEPT That one.

 

[Dogbean]

"just following orders" hasn't been a valid defence for some, oh, 63 odd years?

I would sincerely hope that if you recieved orders that didn't seem logical to you, you would attempt to determine the logic behind them.

Further, such sanctimonious "God doesn't answer to you" assertions aside... how come the condemnation of homosexuality is the ONLY illogical command still extant today? Any other condemnation or moral rule that comes from a Christian position can be logically explained... EXCEPT That one.

I think abstaining from gay sex (and sex outside of marriage too) is perfectly logical.
It prevents the spread of disease.
It is consistant with the design for procreation.
It promotes good family values.

And this isn't about following orders. If that point is what you are focused on than you missed the point.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

If homosexual couples follow the same guidlines for marriage and monogomy that most heterosexuals follow, there is little if any scope for health problems inherent in homosexuality.

Homosexual intimacy is not an attempt at procreation, and there are biologicasl structures that seem to be very very specifically designed FOR homosexual intimacy... thats IF you want to trot out the tired old "argument from design"

How does stopping loving couples from being together support "family values"?

And it seems to be about following orders when the only "logical" reason you can come up with to condemn homosexuality is "God says so".

I believe when "God says" he does so with a logical reason in mind. I can't see a logical reason for condemning homosexuality. If I could, well, maybe I'd quit it. I'm open to discussion on the subject...

 

[darkshadow]

The very dictionary entry you quote shows that I am right, it meant 'woman person'. Anglo-Saxon 'wif' meant 'woman'. The meaning 'wife' was secondary.

Wif and wife are pronounced the same.


What doesn't he like about it?

God declared homosexuality a sin because it goes against his plan for a man and woman to become one flesh in a union of the two. God has a specific plan layed out in Genesis, that a man is to leave his parents and become one flesh with his wife. The reasons being for procreation, and enjoyment for a married, man and woman. That was and is God's plan, and if your,not you but "your" in general, not going by his plan he does not like it and he says so in the Scriptures, that we as Christ followers believe. He created us, so he has the authority to rule over us. Just because someone does not believe or agree with his plan does not make his plan wrong.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

How does stopping loving couples from being together support "family values"?

This is the point I think I have the biggest problem with... homosexuals are homosexuals, whether you reciognise homosexual marriage or not. It doesn't change what we are, and it won't change what most of us do. But how does homosexuality harm any one's family values... either traditional nuclear families OR homosexual couple's or anyone else in between? This has always sounded like an exceptionally silly catchphrase with absolutely no substance to me.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

God declared homosexuality a sin because it goes against his plan for a man and woman to become one flesh in a union of the two. God has a specific plan layed out in Genesis, that a man is to leave his parents and become one flesh with his wife. The reasons being for procreation, and enjoyment for a married, man and woman. That was and is God's plan, and if your,not you but "your" in general, not going by his plan he does not like it and he says so in the Scriptures, that we as Christ followers believe. He created us, so he has the authority to rule over us. Just because someone does not believe or agree with his plan does not make his plan wrong.

Same question for the nth time... if this is true, why did God make homosexuals then?

 

[Dogbean]

If homosexual couples follow the same guidlines for marriage and monogomy that most heterosexuals follow, there is little if any scope for health problems inherent in homosexuality.

Homosexual intimacy is not an attempt at procreation, and there are biologicasl structures that seem to be very very specifically designed FOR homosexual intimacy... thats IF you want to trot out the tired old "argument from design"

How does stopping loving couples from being together support "family values"?

And it seems to be about following orders when the only "logical" reason you can come up with to condemn homosexuality is "God says so".

I believe when "God says" he does so with a logical reason in mind. I can't see a logical reason for condemning homosexuality. If I could, well, maybe I'd quit it. I'm open to discussion on the subject...

I'm sure He does have a reason in mind, but God is not obligated to give it to you, His creation. Sometimes He gives us reasons, sometimes He does not. He told the prophet Hosea to marry a prostitute who He said would be unfaithful to him, but Hosea trusted God and obeyed. Perhaps this was to be a model of patience for men to follow when marrying unbelieving spouses, modelling Christ's love for us, that "while we were sinners Christ died for us." God has a plan for everything.

God declared homosexuality a sin because it goes against his plan for a man and woman to become one flesh in a union of the two. God has a specific plan layed out in Genesis, that a man is to leave his parents and become one flesh with his wife. The reasons being for procreation, and enjoyment for a married, man and woman. That was and is God's plan, and if your,not you but "your" in general, not going by his plan he does not like it and he says so in the Scriptures, that we as Christ followers believe. He created us, so he has the authority to rule over us. Just because someone does not believe or agree with his plan does not make his plan wrong.

Preach it brother! This is awesome!

This is the point I think I have the biggest problem with... homosexuals are homosexuals, whether you reciognise homosexual marriage or not. It doesn't change what we are, and it won't change what most of us do. But how does homosexuality harm any one's family values... either traditional nuclear families OR homosexual couple's or anyone else in between? This has always sounded like an exceptionally silly catchphrase with absolutely no substance to me.

Since God defines homosexuality to be a sin, it is no different than murder, lying, stealing, dishonoring your parents, etc. It's a behavior that can be overcome. God never says "don't be a homosexual." He never recognizes homosexuals as one type of person and heterosexuals as another type. He says "don't engage in homosexual behavior," again telling us that it's not what you are, but what you do. It's a sin, not an identity. If you have homosexual desires, whatever. But if you act on them, then it becomes a sin. And it can be overcome; I've seen it happen. And studies have shown that children who grow up with a father and a mother in their lives are better off.

Same question for the nth time... if this is true, why did God make homosexuals then?

The question is "why does God allow sin?" These are the deep question of the universe that God has not clued us into yet. When you stand before the judgement seat of Christ I'm sure you can ask then.

 

[Dogbean]

Enemypart 2,

You seen to think you can pick and choose what you want out of the Bible. I see you are a young earth creationist, telling me you believe the book of Genesis. How can you overlook chapter two where God defines what marriage is?

The Bible is not there for you to critique and take what you want and leave the rest. Either you believe it's God's Word or you don't.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Since God defines homosexuality to be a sin,

No.
First "God" never defines anything to be a sin, the most you've got is people's interpretations of what other people said God said was a sin.

Second, not eveen the Bible says '"homosexuality" is a sin'. At most, what you have is a particular interpretation of the Bible that says homosexual ACTS are a sin. Even the Catholic Church now accepts and welcome the existance of homosexual people. It is homosexual ACTS that the Church condemns.

it is no different than murder, lying, stealing, dishonoring your parents, etc.

I contend that it is extremely different to the cited sins, since the cited sins directly harm others, homosexuality, and homosexual activity, does not.

I've seen it happen. And studies have shown that children who grow up with a father and a mother in their lives are better off.

Guess what? Wrong again. And unlike you, I'll even provide a source to back up my claim

The author reports on 37 children who are being raised by female homosexuals or by parents who have changed sex (transsexuals): 21 by female homosexuals, 7 by male-to-female transsexuals, and 9 by female- to-male transsexuals. The children range in age from 3 to 20 years (mean = 9.3) and have lived in the sexually atypical households for 1- 16 years (mean = 4.9). Thirty-six of the children report or recall childhood toy, game, clothing, and peer group preferences that are typical for their sex. The 13 older children who report erotic fantasies or overt sexual behaviors are all heterosexually oriented. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/135/6/692

Studies Find No Disadvantage In Growing Up in a Gay Home

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...1A35751C1A964958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

The question is "why does God allow sin?" These are the deep question of the universe that God has not clued us into yet. When you stand before the judgement seat of Christ I'm sure you can ask then.

I believe in a God who acts logically and consistently. Since condemnation of homosexuality is not logical, it therefore follows that condemnation of homosexuality is something humans came up with, not God.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Enemypart 2,

Either you believe it's God's Word or you don't.

False dichotomy.

I believe PARTS of the Bible are God's word. I believe other parts are the words of humans inspired by God, I believe other parts are the words of humans that were inspired by God, but have been mistranslated and misinterpreted so as to loose their original meaning, I believe some parts of the Bible are the words purely of men, with no spiritual inspiration behind them, and finally, I beklieve some parts of the Bible are the remnants of ancient oral traditions that have been mishmashed, merged, seperated, confused, added too and detracted from so often that any relation to their original context, meaning or form was lost millenia ago.

And I believe God's gift to us of inteligence and logic allows us to determine which bits fall into which category. I believe the LAST thing God wants is blind, Pharisee-like adherence to ancient texts that don't make any sense.

And since the alleged Biblical condemnations of homosexuality DON'T make any sense, certainly not in a modern context, and fail any applicable and rigorous test of logic and academy, they can be safely considered to fall into a category of "OTHER than God's word".

Now, you may, of course, disagree with me. And even better, I AM open to the possibility that I may be mistaken. The only caveat I put on that, is to say that to be convinced I am wrong, you will need to demonstrate in a logically consistant, rational way that I am wrong, and not fall back onto "B-b-but the Bible SEZ!" everytime I raise an issue that you can't comfortably answer with logic and intelect.

Can't say fairer than that, now can I?

 

[darkshadow]

Same question for the nth time... if this is true, why did God make homosexuals then?

He didn't. Man brought sin into the world not God. Again his plan does not include homosexuality. Now again also being homosexual is not a sin, acting upon those urges is, just as a heterosexual and admiring a woman's beauty and lusting after her. Before mans fall there was no lust, because there was no sin. Man fell lust appeared, same with homosexuality. Satan uses those urges that are now present, to entice and cause us to sin. Man brought homosexuality into the pictures by his fall, and therefor the another ability or way to sin. I can not state this enough, We are to hate the sin, but love the sinner, or hate the act of homosexuality, but love the person who claims they are homosexual. Sin is sin, in God's eyes only we humans try and catagorize it, with, "this is worse then this, and this is the big one....". God says, the wages of sin is death, not death for murder, but probation for fornification. All sin leads to the same place, and all have sin and come short of the glory of God. So guess what everyone someone who has homosexual sex is no better or worse then anyone else, according to the Bible. I hope you will consider this a legitamit answer, and at least I did answer the question, with more then a "because".

 

[Dogbean]

No.
First "God" never defines anything to be a sin, the most you've got is people's interpretations of what other people said God said was a sin.

This is flat out false. You must not be reading your Bible for what it is. Sounds like more picking and choosing to me.

Second, not eveen the Bible says '"homosexuality" is a sin'. At most, what you have is a particular interpretation of the Bible that says homosexual ACTS are a sin. Even the Catholic Church now accepts and welcome the existance of homosexual people. It is homosexual ACTS that the Church condemns.I contend that it is extremely different to the cited sins, since the cited sins directly harm others, homosexuality, and homosexual activity, does not.

That is exactly what I said. I should have changed the first line of my post where I said that God defines homosexuality to be a sin, based on my reasoning later in the post God defined homosexual acts to be a sin. My apologies for the misrepresentation.

I believe in a God who acts logically and consistently. Since condemnation of homosexuality is not logical, it therefore follows that condemnation of homosexuality is something humans came up with, not God.

Ahh....the Gospel according to Enemy Part 2. Why isn't that in the Bible? The entire body of Christian believers is glad to have you here to tell us what's logical and what's not from God's Word. I'm sure God is glad to have you here on earth to enlighten us. Too bad your existence on earth is fleeting when compared to the whole of human history.

So what you are saying is that the whole of the Bible cannot be trusted. You are saying that God Himself does not utter absolute truth, and we need you here to tell us what's right and what's wrong.

 

[Dogbean]

False dichotomy.

I believe PARTS of the Bible are God's word. I believe other parts are the words of humans inspired by God, I believe other parts are the words of humans that were inspired by God, but have been mistranslated and misinterpreted so as to loose their original meaning, I believe some parts of the Bible are the words purely of men, with no spiritual inspiration behind them, and finally, I beklieve some parts of the Bible are the remnants of ancient oral traditions that have been mishmashed, merged, seperated, confused, added too and detracted from so often that any relation to their original context, meaning or form was lost millenia ago.

And I believe God's gift to us of inteligence and logic allows us to determine which bits fall into which category. I believe the LAST thing God wants is blind, Pharisee-like adherence to ancient texts that don't make any sense.

And since the alleged Biblical condemnations of homosexuality DON'T make any sense, certainly not in a modern context, and fail any applicable and rigorous test of logic and academy, they can be safely considered to fall into a category of "OTHER than God's word".

Now, you may, of course, disagree with me. And even better, I AM open to the possibility that I may be mistaken. The only caveat I put on that, is to say that to be convinced I am wrong, you will need to demonstrate in a logically consistant, rational way that I am wrong, and not fall back onto "B-b-but the Bible SEZ!" everytime I raise an issue that you can't comfortably answer with logic and intelect.

Can't say fairer than that, now can I?

You just deny that part of the Bible so you can justify your sin. That is typical of people who are lost in their sin, or holding onto sin that they don't want to surrender to God.

 

[Andreusz]

I think abstaining from gay sex (and sex outside of marriage too) is perfectly logical.
It prevents the spread of disease.
It is consistant with the design for procreation.
It promotes good family values.

And this isn't about following orders. If that point is what you are focused on than you missed the point.

The spread of disease can be prevented in other ways -- use of condoms, or better still, faithfulness.
Sex is not only for procreation, but also for recreation and expressing intimacy.
Good family values? Well, my boyfriend and I are planning to get married one day -- in other words, to form a family.
I am afraid I cannot have any respect for a god who is incapable of explaning his decisions.

 

[Dogbean]

The spread of disease can be prevented in other ways -- use of condoms, or better still, faithfulness.
Sex is not only for procreation, but also for recreation and expressing intimacy.
Good family values? Well, my boyfriend and I are planning to get married one day -- in other words, to form a family.
I am afraid I cannot have any respect for a god who is incapable of explaning his decisions.

Can be REDUCED with condoms, etc. But it can be ELIMINATED if homosexual urges were not acted on and sex only occurred with one partner, in marriage, as God intended.
So you are saying that the mere creation of a family guarantees "good family values."
And you are very wrong when you say God is incapable of explaining himself. He is not obligated to you or anyone. He's God. He's the Creator, you are the creation. You don't give God conditions.

 

[Andreusz]

God declared homosexuality a sin because it goes against his plan for a man and woman to become one flesh in a union of the two. God has a specific plan layed out in Genesis, that a man is to leave his parents and become one flesh with his wife. The reasons being for procreation, and enjoyment for a married, man and woman.

Wow! Finally, an answer to the question I've asked so often. Okay, so if homosexuality is against his plan, why did God create people like me whose only sexual feelings are homosexual?

He created us, so he has the authority to rule over us. Just because someone does not believe or agree with his plan does not make his plan wrong.

I'm an atheist. I'm not going to accept 'Because God sez' as a reason. You or he will have to provide convincing arguments.