How Homophobic Are You?

[Andreusz]

You have perverted what God's love truly is. You have perverted what authentic human sexuality is, and have superimposed debased ideas onto God's word.

In a word, you are "Reprobate": You have given yourself over so completely to what is wrong, that you can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong. May God have mercy on you.

Is sanctimoniousness a sin?

 

[HaloHope]

And rather thn dealing with this perfectly fair point, they always say "so what if animals do it, animals eat their young, should we do that too?"


[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] TEH AIDS!

Because the Bible sez

All those responses are definately guarenteed ways of making people give up long term relationship that bring joy and happiness into their lives. I mean there such clear and rational arguments how could I not rush out and marry a guy right this second!!!!

 

[Andreusz]

And rather thn dealing with this perfectly fair point, they always say "so what if animals do it, animals eat their young, should we do that too?"


[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] TEH AIDS!

Because the Bible sez

Shh, EPII, you're giving away all the secrets of the guys who argue against us!

(Thanks for your posts, by the way!)

 

[day_rose]

Question 1 - In your opinion, does God regard homosexuality as a sin?

Question 2 - In your opinion, do the Scriptures object to homosexuality

Sister Mary Ann Ford (Roman Catholic -- member of Sisters,
Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary for 39 years, holds
masters degree in mathematics and in pastoral ministry, has
taught in mathematics and religious instruction in high schools
and later colleges, chaplain of the Detroit chapter of Dignity
for the past 15 years):

Q1: Two truths are especially relevant in thinking this
through. First we have a theological point. God,
the one who has made all of creation, loves and
cherishes all creatures without exception. Second,
modern psychology shows us that homosexual orientation
is set by age five or six. Most psychologists agree
that that it is not a matter of choice, whether
orientation is inborn as some think or acquired very early
as other say. How then could an all-loving God possibly
violate Divine nature and regard homosexuals as "sinners"?

Q2: Contemporary Biblical scholars are indicating that the
idea of homosexual orientation was unknown to the writers
of the Sacred Scripture. Certainly they had no knowledge
of the Kinsey research which established the existence of
a continuum along which all of us are somewhere between
the end points of totally heterosexual thorugh bisexuality
to exclusively homosexual. Many of the oft-quoted
"condemnatory passages" may assume that heterosexuals
are acting out of their violation of their "nature".
There also is question as to whether words which appear
in our English texts refer in some cases in the original
languages not to homosexuals but male prostitutes which
were used in pagan worship. Certainly, nowhere does the
Bible legislate on the matter of loving sexual activity
between consenting adults in committed relationships.

Rev Harry L Holfelder (Presbyterian -- chair of AIDS Interfaith
Network of Baltimore and is senior pastor of local church, is
active with the Maryland Interfaith Legislative Committee):

Q1: No, I do not think that God regards homosexuality as a
sin. I believe that one's sexual preference is first
and foremost a matter of biology (creation) and only
secondarily a matter of choice (responsibility). Since
I also believe that all God creates is good, I conclude
that human sexuality (not a matter of choice for anyone)
is good, whether that sexual expression be heterosexual
or homosexual.

Q2: A careful and sensitive reading of the Scriptures does
not lead to the automatic conclusion that homosexuality
is a sin. There are passages, especially in the
"holiness literature" that suggests this conclusion.
However, the overall message of Scripture in this matter
is fare more positive than negative. Biblically, the
issue is the goodness of human sexuality and the use of
that gift in covenant relationships. For me a more
important question is that of the relationship of God in
Christ to a human being. In this relationship I see no
barriers, even sexual ones.

Rev C Robert Nugent (Roman Catholic -- co-editor of "The Vatican
and Homosexuality", holds degrees from St Charles College, St
Charles Theologate, a degree in library science from Villanova
University and a Masters of Sacred Theology from Yale University
Divinity School):

Q1: I do not believe that God regards homosexuality as a
"sin" if homosexuality means the psychosexual identity
of lesbians or gay persons, which we know from
contemporary scientific studies is within the boundaries
of healthy, human psychological development, and which
seems to be as natural for some people as heterosexuality
is for others. If homosexuality means the emotional,
intimate bonding in same-gender relationships of love and
friendship, I believe that since God is love, where there
is authentic love, God is present.

Where god is present, there can be no sin. If
homosexuality means same-gender erotic, physical
expressions of union and pleasure, the possiblity of
personal sin exists in homosexuality -- as it does in
heterosexuality -- depending on the interplay of three
factors including the physical behaviour itself and its
meaning for the person, the personal motives and intents
of the person acting, and the individual and social
consequences or results of the behaviour. For many
people, sexual behaviour which is exploitative, coercive,
manipulative, dishonest, selfish or destructive of human
personhood is sinful; for all people "sin" means freely
acting contrary to one's deeply held moral or ethical
convictions, whether these come from organised religion
or a personally developed value system. In speaking of
the "sinfulness" of same-gender genital expressions, the
Roman Catholic Bishops of Washington say that "...no one
except Almighty God can make certain judgements about the
personal sinfulness of acts (_The Prejudice Against
Homosexuals and the Ministry of the Church_, Washington
State Catholic Conference, 1983).

 

[brightmorningstar]

As God made woman to be united with man, and there is no mention of homosexuality in the Bible, it would be a good idea to see what God says about homosexuality rather than what homosexuality says about God. God created man and woman, homosexuality didnt..

Most psychologists agree that that it is not a matter of choice, whether
orientation is inborn as some think or acquired very early as other say. How then could an all-loving God possibly violate Divine nature and regard heterosexuals as "sinners"?

I have substitued heterosexuals for homsoexuals. This is why the argument from our learned friend is based on sexual thinking and not God's wisdom. When a man has sex outside marriage, which is by definition heterosexual, why does God find those heteroexuals sinners?

You see thinking in terms of homosexual and heterosexual is turring away from what God has made clear in creation. The other point is that sin came into the world by knowing the opposite of the good God created, so this is the danger in thinking God created homosexuals, the Bible does say all God created was good but it also says He created woman for man, and it doesn't say God created homosexuals or heterosexuals. Homosexuality is a human idea and God didnt create it.

 

[OllieFranz]

As God made woman to be united with man, and there is no mention of homosexuality in the Bible, it would be a good idea to see what God says about homosexuality rather than what homosexuality says about God. God created man and woman, homosexuality didnt..
I have substitued heterosexuals for homsoexuals. This is why the argument from our learned friend is based on sexual thinking and not God's wisdom. When a man has sex outside marriage, which is by definition heterosexual, why does God find those heteroexuals sinners?

No one has ever denied that gays can sin sexually in the same ways that straights can. What we deny is 1) that simply being gay is a sin. That is like saying that simply being born rich is a sin. and 2) (and there are fewer of us who say this) we deny that gay sex is always sin, simply because it is gay. Sex is not only sanctioned within a marriage, it is commanded.

 

[kiwimac]

Same sex marriage has NEVER existed. Therefore it should never exist. There is nothing new under the sun. The same old sins that ever existed, still pervade culture today.

Now this generation wants to embed the sin even deeper into culture by making a childish plea for marriage. It's like little kids playing house. Silly.

Same-sex marriages have been around for generations and were celebrated in the early church. Perhaps a little historical reading would help here?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Marriage is between a man and a woman. That is healthy and normal, and cannot be equated with alcoholism.

The perversion of human sexuality through homosexual acts is a deviation. It is one that must be mastered, just as alcoholism must be mastered.

My statement was in response to the person who assumed that her homosexuality was natural and therefore homosexual sex is natural. My comparison is that alcoholism is a natural state as well, but it is still wrong to be a drunkard. Homosexuality may well too be a natural occurance, but homosexal sex is still wrong and sinful, and a violation of God's law.

Racists present the same case you are presenting here. To justify their personal prejudice and advocate for discrimination a racist will happily compare people of color to criminals (usually sex based crimes) as well a host of other unsavory attributes in an attempt to link the non-whites to pedophiles, rapists, the lazy, the uneducated, the unclean, alcoholics, substance abusers and so on. Such comparisons are at best insulting and in no way conductive to actual discussion.

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

Racists present the same case you are presenting here. To justify their personal prejudice and advocate for discrimination a racist will happily compare people of color to criminals (usually sex based crimes) as well a host of other unsavory attributes in an attempt to link the non-whites to pedophiles, rapists, the lazy, the uneducated, the unclean, alcoholics, substance abusers and so on. Such comparisons are at best insulting and in no way conductive to actual discussion.

Is not the problem however that you are confusing homosexual orientation with homosexual sex? Sexual contact is a behavior (with the obvious exception of rape) and thus it is a choice. I am not arguing that the homosexual chooses to be attracted to the same sex, but they do choose to act upon that attraction.

The act of having homosexual sex, which is a decision, is not comparable to race, which is not a decision.

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

Same-sex marriages have been around for generations and were celebrated in the early church. Perhaps a little historical reading would help here?

My new friend,
Do you have ECF references?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Actually, that word never even existed until the 1980's It was invented by homosexuals to try and make those who point out the truth as the ones who have the problem - the "phobia".

First you redefine words to suit your agenda…now you are re-writing history

 

[BigBadWlf]

Pointing out the sin of homosexual sex is not "judging".

Tell me: If you saw a person being murdered, would you not have the right to point at the murderer and say "What you did was wrong!" ?

I, too, have the right to point to sin and call it sin. But God will be the judge.

By the way, I am showing far more compasion by being honest with you than are those who let you merrily dance your way to hell as they pat you on the back while waving their banner of "Tolerance".

And how do YOU respond when people point out your sin of hatred and prejudice?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Is not the problem however that you are confusing homosexual orientation with homosexual sex? Sexual contact is a behavior (with the obvious exception of rape) and thus it is a choice. I am not arguing that the homosexual chooses to be attracted to the same sex, but they do choose to act upon that attraction.

The act of having homosexual sex, which is a decision, is not comparable to race, which is not a decision.

Racists do not hate African American’s because of the color of their skin, rather they object to the way most if not all blacks sin by defying the word of God and act as social equals to whites. They argue, just as you are arguing here, that blacks could act in the “Normal” and biblically prescribed way the bible sets down for them but they choose to behave the way they do.

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

Racists do not hate African American’s because of the color of their skin, rather they object to the way most if not all blacks sin by defying the word of God and act as social equals to whites. They argue, just as you are arguing here, that blacks could act in the “Normal” and biblically prescribed way the bible sets down for them but they choose to behave the way they do.

Never met a Racist who made this argument. Not one, and unfortunately I have known more than a few. Most of them in prison. (ministry related)

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Never met a Racist who made this argument. Not one, and unfortunately I have known more than a few. Most of them in prison. (ministry related)

http://www.aryan-nations.org/


http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm

Two examples of racists who make exactly this sort of claim.

 

[visionary]

Hate the sin, love the sinner

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

http://www.aryan-nations.org/


http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm

Two examples of racists who make exactly this sort of claim.

OK that was a disgusting waste of time. Could you show me please where the hate originates from behavior and not a perceived inferiority? stereotypes.

It's not my intention to argue but the argument I was disagree with was one that equates behavior with race. Again behavior is a choice, race isn't. Now if you want to argue that the behavior isn't sinful, then that may be a good starting point, but the two (behavior) and race simply are not the same.

Additionally this would only be on point if those who believed homosexual sex to be a sin actually hated homosexuals, or discriminated against them because they are homosexuals. I can state for a fact that I am at least one that does not. My opinions on homosexual sex are based upon my understanding of Scripture.

You may or may not agree with me or my interpretation of Scripture but I defy you to prove that I hate homosexuals.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Additionally this would only be on point if those who believed homosexual sex to be a sin actually hated homosexuals, or discriminated against them because they are homosexuals.

I contend that we need look no further than th membership list of this very site to find people who genuinely hate and fear homosexuals because they are homosexuals.

You may or may not agree with me or my interpretation of Scripture but I defy you to prove that I hate homosexuals.

I didn't say that you did.

However, I sincerely believe that in most, if not all, cases, people who back the "homosexual sex is sin" POV, do so because that is what they have been brought up to believe, and they look to the Bible to support their pre-existing beliefs. I belief that very few, if any, people with no problem with homosexuality, come to condemn it only after reading the Bible, based on the Bible alone.

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

I contend that we need look no further than th membership list of this very site to find people who genuinely hate and fear homosexuals because they are homosexuals.

I am sure tht this is true, as we would with any large, diverse list of people. I do not mean to imply that there are no people who hate homosexuals because they are homosexuals. It is clear from our society that this is true.

I didn't say that you did.

I realize that, and if I implied otherwise I apologize.

However, I sincerely believe that in most, if not all, cases, people who back the "homosexual sex is sin" POV, do so because that is what they have been brought up to believe, and they look to the Bible to support their pre-existing beliefs. I belief that very few, if any, people with no problem with homosexuality, come to condemn it only after reading the Bible, based on the Bible alone.

Here we obviously disagree. Your theory doesn't match my experience nor the experience of a number of people that I know.
I am sure that it fits some, but if I were to guess the numbers would be much less than you believe them to be.

Please understand also that even though I believe homosexual sex to be sin, I do not consider it to be any greater a sin than any I have ever committed. Nor do I take the stance that Homosexuals cannot be Christians. I personally believe that God would eventually convict those who engage in homosexual sex of its sinfulness, but I am not God and I will not accuse a person of not being a Christian if they claim to be one.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I realize that, and if I implied otherwise I apologize.

Accepted

Here we obviously disagree. Your theory doesn't match my experience nor the experience of a number of people that I know.
I am sure that it fits some, but if I were to guess the numbers would be much less than you believe them to be.

Please understand also that even though I believe homosexual sex to be sin, I do not consider it to be any greater a sin than any I have ever committed. Nor do I take the stance that Homosexuals cannot be Christians. I personally believe that God would eventually convict those who engage in homosexual sex of its sinfulness, but I am not God and I will not accuse a person of not being a Christian if they claim to be one.

I'm happy to disagree with someone polite and respectful. Can I ask you to support your point though? Do you no of anyone who didn't have a problem with homosexuality who decided it was sinful after reading the Bible, without direct intervention or indoctrination by someone who already holds that view?