Taking Questions on the Creation

[AV1611VET]

Ultimately AV, I expect that you will say that God suspended the laws of physics as we know them (if indeed they applied at the time), or that God did it in this way this for reasons known only best to himself, or indeed because he is God he can do anything anyway. But I would like to think you could elaborate mote that that……

Genesis 1 does not seem to make sense……

Oh-h-h, boy. I hate long posts, but I'll give you my scenario, and hopefully it'll cover all the bases. I'm going to have to go outside of Genesis 1 a couple times for this one, so bear with me, please.

¶ Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

According to Isaiah, God created the earth in the hollow (palm) of His hand, and factoring in Genesis 1, we see that the earth started out as just a ball of [sea] water - (I like to call it Terra Aqua, for lack of a better term).

The Earth after Genesis 1:2
​

At this point, the Bible says that the Spirit ---

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What is He doing? I don't want to get into this here, but He's doing geodesic surveillance. Actually moving --- going from Point A to Point B --- not "brooding," as some like to put it.

At this point, God calls the Electromagnetic Spectrum into existence and, supposedly, the Four Forces of the universe snap into operation.

Now comes the next day ---

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

God shears off a level of water approximately five miles deep and balloons it out into space, sucking an atmosphere (O[sup]2[/sup], N, trace elements) out of Terra Aqua and locking it into place in a containment field, called "First Heaven."

From there, and so as not to sit here all day typing, God basically calls more elements from Terra Aqua to form the dry land; and eventually, from the dry land, He calls the elements to form Adam, and from Adam, He calls the elements (a rib, in this case) to form Eve.

 

[Vene]

Because it's true.

How do we know that? And don't say because the Bible says so, because anybody can write something false and then say it's true.

 

[AV1611VET]

Now look again to Genesis 1:14-16. Where does it say the sun, moon and stars reside? It very clearly states "in the firmament". And the firmament is widely agreed among Christian sites to mean the atmosphere.

A "firmament" is a containment field, not an atmosphere, and the Bible recognizes [two of] three such fields, calling them "Heaven:"

1. 1st Heaven = the earth up to approx. 62 miles - where our atmosphere is.
2. 2nd Heaven = outer space - where the stars are.
3. 3rd Heaven = Heaven proper - crystal sea, God's throne, etc.

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, [whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth:] such an one caught up to the third heaven.

 

[AV1611VET]

This seems to suggest that God deliberately 'horsed around' in such a way as to make those who honestly seek the truth regarding the origin of the universe unable to reconsile the evience this with his word.

I don't believe atheists "honestly seek the truth." They have settled the matter "in their hearts" (where final decisions are made), and thus fool themselves. This is probably what is meant by David's definition in Psalm 14:1.

 

[AV1611VET]

But the only reason this subset came up with a different order is because he jumbled things up. If he hadn't jumbled things up, this subset would believe the order given in Genesis.

No --- the correct order is Genesis 1, but scientists, in refusing to accept the miraculous, rearrange the order so as to make it fit their paradigms.

In other words, we are the ones who jumble it up, not God - (that's why I originally put "jumbled" in quotes).

 

[Skaloop]

No --- the correct order is Genesis 1, but scientists, in refusing to accept the miraculous, rearrange the order so as to make it fit their paradigms.

In other words, we are the ones who jumble it up, not God - (that's why I originally put "jumbled" in quotes).

We don't have the power to alter entire geological strata, or embed fossils in a specific order. We merely observe what god allegedly shows us of his creation. We only disbelieve because those observations are contradictory and sometimes paradoxical to what the bible describes. We haven't jumbled anything because we do not have that ability.

 

[AV1611VET]

We don't have the power to alter entire geological strata, or embed fossils in a specific order.

The earth in Genesis 1 was quite different than it is today.

 

[Skaloop]

The earth in Genesis 1 was quite different than it is today.

Then two questions.

1) How is it different?
2) Who/what made it different?

 

[Logic_Fault]

I can assure you that had you not done that, I would have indeed posted a picture of the Bible.

Yes, I know. If you'll excuse the poor pun, I can read you like a book.

Because it's true.

How do you know it's true if you have no way of verifying it through empirical, scientifically valid and objective evidence?

EDIT: The same restrictions apply as to my previous question. I don't want to see your Bible pic, etc.

Okay --- thanks.

No problem.

 

[Split Rock]

Frumious Bandersnatch, who is far more knowledgeable than I, once gave me (at my request) the order of Genesis One according to today's science, and it indeed differs from Genesis One - (thank you, FB).

I believe God purposely "jumbled" the order of His creation, knowing that some time in the future a subset of the human race would come up with their own order --- thus making His order stand out more.

And you wonder why we say that your idea of God is one of a deceitful god.

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

1. Does not apply to Genesis 1.

Er, where in the OP did it say "Gen 1"? Perhaps you can be more specific about what you mean by questions about "the Creation"?

I think SR's list covered most of the questions I'd have. But since you did answer some regarding the Trees... I've asked about this but still don't have a clear understanding of your position:

Why was it wrong of Adam & Eve to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good & Evil? If they had no knowledge of Good & Evil, they couldn't know that it was Evil to disobey God and eat of it. So in ignorance they "sin", then they know Good & Evil and that they shouldn't have done that, but -- hey, guess what -- too late now! Now the entire planet for the next 6000+ years is screwed. Seems to me that either God didn't think this through logically (meaning God is either illogical or a bit slow) or that God is being totally unfair, condemning all life because of an innocent mistake. None of those conclusions is theologically sound, so... problem. How do you resolve this?

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

I believe God purposely "jumbled" the order of His creation, knowing that some time in the future a subset of the human race would come up with their own order --- thus making His order stand out more.

As SR has already said, how is this not a deceitful God? The "making His order stand out" claim is pretty weak -- if I said "all worship me, I am a god, give me all your money and let me sleep with your women. Lo, see my godly powers: I can fly!" and someone pointed out that I can't actually fly and I responded "I have made the universe such that it appears I can't fly so that you will be REALLY impressed by my claim that I can"... well, how many followers do you think I'd have?

And what kind of God wants Their followers to believe something like that? Surely a rational God would want Their believers to act rationally (ie like God). Such a God would not order the universe to contradict Their Word so as to require believers to abandon rationality and the evidence in God's creation.

Conclusion: God is not rational, or God is deceitful. I can't accept either of those, and I assume you can't either, so what gives?

I don't believe atheists "honestly seek the truth." They have settled the matter "in their hearts" (where final decisions are made), and thus fool themselves. This is probably what is meant by David's definition in Psalm 14:1.

What about us heretic TEs, then? Are you willing to claim that I've said in my heart that there is no God? I'm pretty sure that I honestly seek the truth, and, from where I sit, God has left conclusive evidence that the universe was not created exactly as a literal reading of Genesis would suggest. So God's attempt to play silly buggers with atheists has just messed me up unfairly, hasn't it?

Furthermore, why do this? You're suggesting, are you not, that God made/allowed an apparent contradiction so as to fool atheists. But you've also said that atheists have already made up their minds and made fools of themselves, so you can't blame God for screwing them over. But if they've already made up their minds, why bother messing with the evidence to fool them? Round and round and round it goes. Either this "incorrect" physical evidence is there to fool people, in which case God is deceitful, or it doesn't matter, in which case it's pointless.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Question: From a literary/historical/mythological POV, what makes the Hebrew creation myth more intrisically reliable than any other?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Er, where in the OP did it say "Gen 1"? Perhaps you can be more specific about what you mean by questions about "the Creation"?

AV doesn't consider anything after Genesis 1 to be part of the Creation mythos. Since he can't accept two separate and mutually exclusive Creation myths (Gen 1 vs. Gen 2-3) he denies the second one.

 

[Tomk80]

I don't believe atheists "honestly seek the truth." They have settled the matter "in their hearts" (where final decisions are made), and thus fool themselves. This is probably what is meant by David's definition in Psalm 14:1.

Given that theistic evolutionists arrive at the same "jumbled up" order, that is actually completely irrelevant.

 

[AV1611VET]

And you wonder why we say that your idea of God is one of a deceitful god.

Only an MGVO (McGraw-Hill Version Only) would accuse God of being deceitful, based on He not putting this universe together in the order they think it should have been done.

 

[AV1611VET]

How do you resolve this?

MOK, when someone teaches the Creation Week, they should never field questions about what occurred outside of Genesis 1. That leads to points that have nothing to do with the subject. You're asking questions about Hamartology (the doctrine of sin) in a thread that's taking questions on the Creation, and these two doctrines have nothing to do with each other.

My advice to those who teach the Creation: never, never, never stray outside of Genesis One, or you'll get buried in side-issues.

 

[Tomk80]

Only an MGVO (McGraw-Hill Version Only) would accuse God of being deceitful, based on He not putting this universe together in the order they think it should have been done.

Why don't you respond to the arguments people actually make, instead of this strawman?

 

[AV1611VET]

As SR has already said, how is this not a deceitful God? The "making His order stand out" claim is pretty weak --

And once again, the order that God put this universe together in is a powerful testimony against evolution, and is a powerful testimony to what He can do.

The Theory of Evolution is very convincing, and had God put this universe together in the order that nature demands, then it would be even harder to separate Genesis 1 from McGraw-Hill 1.

I'm impressed at His foresight.

 

[AV1611VET]

Question: From a literary/historical/mythological POV, what makes the Hebrew creation myth more intrisically reliable than any other?

I'm not familiar with any Hebrew creation myth.