Gays and Lesbians (GLBT) versus Christians

[Polycarp_fan]

No, this isn't hate speech at all. In fact it is a logical point that says, if all groups used the same logic that homosexuals do to justify their lifestyle, then we don't have the right to say any behavior is wrong. Who are we to say that a pedophile is wrong to molest children if he insists that he was born that way, yet this is the logic that homosexuals use to justify their behavior.

Just because I disagree with your life style doesn't mean I hate homosexuals or that any christian does.I may disagree with a person's behavior, yet still love the person. Homosexuals are quick to label anyone who disagrees with their sexuality choices for whatever reason, a bigot or homophobe or hate speech. That is the same tired and worn out rhetorical banter homosexuals have been spouting off since the 80's.

Are referring to the 1980's?

How about a few thousand years ago:

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house.

They called to Lot,

"Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."


Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said,

"No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
"Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge!

We'll treat you worse than them."

They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

"There is nothing new under the sun."

 

[Mling]

Well done. You need to post in the Gay Theology thread. Gay theology states that pederasty and owning a sex slave is a beautiful thing that Jesus was OK with. Seriously that's what it posits.

support or recant. Specifically, provide evidence for the existence of a recognized theological or philosophical system known as "Gay Theology" and that this is an accepted view among the majority of its adherents.

 

[CCGirl]

What a silly thread, it is assuming that gay people are not already christian.

 

[quatona]

No, this isn't hate speech at all. In fact it is a logical point that says, if all groups used the same logic that homosexuals do to justify their lifestyle, then we don't have the right to say any behavior is wrong. Who are we to say that a pedophile is wrong to molest children if he insists that he was born that way, yet this is the logic that homosexuals use to justify their behavior.

...and it´s the logic that us lefthanded people use to justify our behaviour. However, it´s just one aspect in the justification of the lefthanded lifestyle. The entire argument goes something like: The lefthanded lifestyle doesn´t harm anyone, and while this alone is enough reason to not condemn it the fact that we are born that way makes condemning the lefthanded lifestyle particularly obscene.

My problem with pederastery is that it harms others. The lefthanded lifestyle (and homosexuality) doesn´t. Maybe this distinction is of no significance to you, but you better keep in mind that it is the context in which the "born that way" argument is typically used and needs to be understood.

 

[Paulos23]

Well done. You need to post in the Gay Theology thread. Gay theology states that pederasty and owning a sex slave is a beautiful thing that Jesus was OK with. Seriously that's what it posits.

Support or retract.

The Gay community is not like the D/s community. And when did being Gay become a religion? Talk about demonizing....

Support or retract Poly.

 

[HannahBanana]

Strawman. Cognitive dissonance tricks are so old school now.

Focus on what the Christian writings (the New Testament) say that Christians should do within the framework of the Christian Church.

Pagans are free to do what they wilteth.

And the atheists are free to believe that 0 x 0 = the seen and unseen universe. And others are free to laugh at them and or pity them, or, to convince them that they are . . . ( I don't want to get banned just yet) so never mind.

Free will is the basis of free thinking. But so many freethinkers oppose free will.

Make your choice and be ready for the comebacks about it.

You know, the advice in the Bible.

How is that a strawman when it has to do directly with what Sheeple said in his post? Did you even read Sheeple's post, or were you too eager to find some way to dismiss my points?

 

[HannahBanana]

No, this isn't hate speech at all. In fact it is a logical point that says, if all groups used the same logic that homosexuals do to justify their lifestyle, then we don't have the right to say any behavior is wrong. Who are we to say that a pedophile is wrong to molest children if he insists that he was born that way, yet this is the logic that homosexuals use to justify their behavior.

Just because I disagree with your life style doesn't mean I hate homosexuals or that any christian does.I may disagree with a person's behavior, yet still love the person. Homosexuals are quick to label anyone who disagrees with their sexuality choices for whatever reason, a bigot or homophobe or hate speech. That is the same tired and worn out rhetorical banter homosexuals have been spouting off since the 80's.

One question: what exactly is a "homosexual lifestyle," considering the fact that not all homosexuals have sex and that homosexuals live the exact same sort of life as heterosexuals do?

 

[Mling]

Support or retract.

The Gay community is not like the D/s community. And when did being Gay become a religion? Talk about demonizing....

Support or retract Poly.

well, and even in D/s, there is overwhelming emphasis on consent, establishment of limits and care for your partner. I started reading websites on D/s ethics and safety when I was...oh...15 or so.

I've got the various tenets of the D/s community so drilled into my head, I can't even play *games* that involve slavery without first (in character) establishing that everything is Safe, Sane, Consensual, pausing and breaking the Master/slave roles once in a while to negotiate through tricky bits, and providing aftercare.

 

[Sheeple]

One question: what exactly is a "homosexual lifestyle," considering the fact that not all homosexuals have sex and that homosexuals live the exact same sort of life as heterosexuals do?

Ok that's a great question. I suppose it would be necessary to define terminology as it is very possible that everyone attributes a different meaning to the key words we are using.

In my opinion and in my definition:

Homosexuality: Describes a person with same sex attraction who has decided to openly embrace the gay life style of having sexual relations with the same sex.

Same Sex Attraction: A person who has an attraction to the same sex, yet chooses not to act on those desires.

I believe that the character of scripture when It describes homosexuality, is describing people who actively embrace and participate in homosexual behavior as a lifestyle and a sexuality option.

I understand that there are people who are attracted to the same sex, yet do not embrace homosexuality as a viable option and recognize that calls God homosexual sex sin.

The whole point I have been attempting to make here, is that homosexuals essentially claim that because they feel attraction to the same sex, then that means God made them that way and that they have the right to act on those desires.

If we use this logic, then a pedophile is also justified in molesting children, because he is attracted to children; a cumpulsive gambler can claim that he was born with the desire to gamble, therefore, he is justified in gambling.

As a side note, when you explore the homosexual topic, there is overwhelming amounts of evidence that suggest same sex attraction is brought on in very early childhood due to several external factors that cause a person to be attracted to the same sex and it become sexualized.

When a person says "I am a gay christian" and by this they mean that I am a christian and I openly embrace the gay lifestyle of having sexual relations with the same sex, then this is at odds with the teaching of scripture. One cannot be a christian and openly embrace and live sinful lifestyle regardless of what that sin is. This is rebellion toward God.

1 John 3:4-10
4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

When a person says, I am a gay christian" and by this they mean that I have same sex attractions, yet I recognize that having sexual relations with the same sex is sin in God's eyes; therefore, I yield this to God and look to him for grace to overcome the temptation and find freedom from it. Then this view is not at odds with scripture, although I don't think "I am a gay christian" is the best description, because it denotes that a person has identified themselves as gay.

 

[HannahBanana]

I believe that the character of scripture when It describes homosexuality, is describing people who actively embrace and participate in homosexual behavior as a lifestyle and a sexuality option.

But how can "homosexual behavior" be a lifestyle when homosexuals don't just sit around all day and have sex? There are many other factors to a lifestyle than sex, you know. For example, I'm bisexual, and right now I'm posting on CF. So posting on CF is part of my "bisexual lifestyle." I just don't understand why you're so unwilling to see homosexuals as being complex human beings just like heterosexuals are. Why do you just want to think of them as constantly-copulating creatures?

The whole point I have been attempting to make here, is that homosexuals essentially claim that because they feel attraction to the same sex, then that means God made them that way and that they have the right to act on those desires.

Who are you to say that God didn't make them that way, though? Just because you interpret the Bible in a way that makes it seem like he didn't doesn't mean that he definitely didn't. After all, the Bible was written by sinful, fallible men, not by God himself.

If we use this logic, then a pedophile is also justified in molesting children, because he is attracted to children; a cumpulsive gambler can claim that he was born with the desire to gamble, therefore, he is justified in gambling.

Pedophilia hurts people, though, and so does compulsive gambling. How does homosexuality hurt a person?

As a side note, when you explore the homosexual topic, there is overwhelming amounts of evidence that suggest same sex attraction is brought on in very early childhood due to several external factors that cause a person to be attracted to the same sex and it become sexualized.

Care to provide some of this evidence?

When a person says "I am a gay christian" and by this they mean that I am a christian and I openly embrace the gay lifestyle of having sexual relations with the same sex, then this is at odds with the teaching of scripture. One cannot be a christian and openly embrace and live sinful lifestyle regardless of what that sin is. This is rebellion toward God.

This might surprise you, but your interpretation of the Bible is not the only correct interpretation of the Bible. To say that it is is pure arrogance.

 

[Mling]

There was a thread a while ago where, in response to a similar question, a bunch of gay and bi people posted about their lifestyles.

The gay/bi lifestyle seems to involve ice-cream, foliage-gazing, helping grandparents with household chores, cookies, cleaning litter boxes, and music from the 70's.

Hope that helps!

 

[Mling]

This might surprise you, but your interpretation of the Bible is not the only correct interpretation of the Bible. To say that it is is pure arrogance.

I'd several steps further. To claim that one has the only fully correct understanding of God's word is to claim to be equal to God.

 

[HannahBanana]

I'd several steps further. To claim that one has the only fully correct understanding of God's word is to claim to be equal to God.

Good point. You know, it's odd how so many fundamentalists will willfully disobey the Bible (by claiming to be equal to God) and then go immediately on to complain about others disobeying the Bible. Do they not see the hypocrisy in that?

 

[quatona]

The gay/bi lifestyle seems to involve ice-cream, foliage-gazing, helping grandparents with household chores, cookies, cleaning litter boxes, and music from the 70's.

That´s what they say. They´d never admit that in fact the homosexual lifestyle consists of anal sex 24/7, and nothing else. Well, maybe a bit of spreading the Gay Agenda, for a rare occasional change.

 

[Sheeple]

But how can "homosexual behavior" be a lifestyle when homosexuals don't just sit around all day and have sex? There are many other factors to a lifestyle than sex, you know. For example, I'm bisexual, and right now I'm posting on CF. So posting on CF is part of my "bisexual lifestyle." I just don't understand why you're so unwilling to see homosexuals as being complex human beings just like heterosexuals are. Why do you just want to think of them as constantly-copulating creatures?


Who are you to say that God didn't make them that way, though? Just because you interpret the Bible in a way that makes it seem like he didn't doesn't mean that he definitely didn't. After all, the Bible was written by sinful, fallible men, not by God himself.


Pedophilia hurts people, though, and so does compulsive gambling. How does homosexuality hurt a person?


Care to provide some of this evidence?


This might surprise you, but your interpretation of the Bible is not the only correct interpretation of the Bible. To say that it is is pure arrogance.

Unfortunately, we don't get to pick which "interpretation" we want to believe in. When all of the writers of scripture wrote, they had a literal truth they were writing to present. While I will be the first to admit that there are many crackpot theologies in circulation today, all scripture points to one literal truth.

There are some doctrines of the bible that I consider to be "closed hand" doctrines. These are absolute truths to which there really is no debate or room for departure. Things like the deity of Christ; the condition of man; salvation by faith; sin.

There are others that are widely debated, while each side has compelling arguments and proofs for the beliefs, you can walk away from the debate and shake hands. Sin is one of those absolutes.

The conjecture that the bible doesn't call homosexuality (have sex with the same sex) sin, is silly and absurd. There really is no way to argue this one, the bible is unarguably clear on this issue.

I can have friendly debates with you here on this forum and yet still respect you as a person because we are all in the same place, we are sinners that need the grace of God. I can't and wouldn't reject you because you choose to live a homosexual lifestyle, because I too am a sinner( he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone..).

However, the law judges us both and proclaims us both guilty and deserving death. It is only when we look to Jesus and His substitutional death and turn from our sins, that any of us can receive cleansing and healing.

"Turning" from sin doesn't mean that I won't ever sin again and need to repent; it does mean that I come into agreement with God that it is sin; I repent and then resolve by God's grace to turn from it.

The whole point of this discussion is really that you believe God does not call the act of having sex with the same sex sin and that you feel you are justified before God to embrace and engage in a homosexual life.

 

[HannahBanana]

Sheeple, yes, homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible. But that doesn't mean that gay marriage should stay illegal. After all, you're just as much of a sinner as a homosexual is, yet you're allowed to get married.

 

[BigBadWlf]

No, this isn't hate speech at all. In fact it is a logical point that says, if all groups used the same logic that homosexuals do to justify their lifestyle, then we don't have the right to say any behavior is wrong. Who are we to say that a pedophile is wrong to molest children if he insists that he was born that way, yet this is the logic that homosexuals use to justify their behavior.

Yes it is hate speech. It is a fine example of the tactic you were employing in your last thread that racists use to justify their behavior. once again you are trying to compare a minority to a group of sexual criminals just as racists do.

Observe what happens when we take your argument for the justification of hatred of our gay and lesbian brothers and sister and change the minority:

“In fact it is a logical point that says, if all groups used the same logic that blacks do to justify their lifestyle, then we don't have the right to say any behavior is wrong. Who are we to say that rapist is wrong to sexually assault white women if he insists that he was born that way, yet this is the logic that blacks use to justify their behavior.”

Bigotry is bigotry no matter who the target is

Just because I disagree with your life style doesn't mean I hate homosexuals or that any christian does.I may disagree with a person's behavior, yet still love the person. Homosexuals are quick to label anyone who disagrees with their sexuality choices for whatever reason, a bigot or homophobe or hate speech. That is the same tired and worn out rhetorical banter homosexuals have been spouting off since the 80's.

Why do you think I am gay?
Because I don’t hate homosexuals?


I think it is wrong to justify anti-Semitism and make false claims that the Nazi’s didn’t murder millions of Jews during the second world war. Do you think that because I don’t hate Jews that makes me Jewish?

I believe that kidnapping random black men and murdering them is wrong. I support civil rights and reject racism. Do you think that because I don’t hate African Americans that makes me black?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Are referring to the 1980's?

How about a few thousand years ago:



"There is nothing new under the sun."

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did hateful things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”
Ezekiel 16: 49-50

 

[BigBadWlf]

One question: what exactly is a "homosexual lifestyle," considering the fact that not all homosexuals have sex and that homosexuals live the exact same sort of life as heterosexuals do?

maybe it's something like the black lifestyle

 

[BigBadWlf]

Ok that's a great question. I suppose it would be necessary to define terminology as it is very possible that everyone attributes a different meaning to the key words we are using.

In my opinion and in my definition:

Homosexuality: Describes a person with same sex attraction who has decided to openly embrace the gay life style of having sexual relations with the same sex.

Same Sex Attraction: A person who has an attraction to the same sex, yet chooses not to act on those desires.

I believe that the character of scripture when It describes homosexuality, is describing people who actively embrace and participate in homosexual behavior as a lifestyle and a sexuality option.

Its incredibly sad that you have to change definitions and concepts to even begin to justify your personal prejudices.

I am sure you would protest being defined solely based on anthers perception of lust

Is the only reason you got married was because you wanted to have sex? I bet you will deny that and be horribly offended at the suggestion yet you happily go around claiming the same thing about an entire minority.

The real definition: homosexuality - an enduring pattern of or disposition to experience sexual, affectional, or romantic attractions to people of the same gender. That is from the APA.

Gays and lesbians are gays and lesbians whether they are having sex or not, just like heterosexuals. Being a virgin does not make one asexual.

I understand that there are people who are attracted to the same sex, yet do not embrace homosexuality as a viable option and recognize that calls God homosexual sex sin.

Whole other argument. To point a literal reading of the bible will show that homosexuality is not a sin. again it is always amazing that those who demand a literal interoperation of the bible be inflicted upon others are the first to reject that same literal interoperation when it does not support their petty personal prejudices

The whole point I have been attempting to make here, is that homosexuals essentially claim that because they feel attraction to the same sex, then that means God made them that way and that they have the right to act on those desires.

If we use this logic, then a pedophile is also justified in molesting children, because he is attracted to children; a cumpulsive gambler can claim that he was born with the desire to gamble, therefore, he is justified in gambling.

Please stop using the same tactics used to justify racism.

As a side note, when you explore the homosexual topic, there is overwhelming amounts of evidence that suggest same sex attraction is brought on in very early childhood due to several external factors that cause a person to be attracted to the same sex and it become sexualized.

Please cite this “overwhelming evidence”

do you have anything published in legitimate scientific journals to back this up? (I know the answer is no.)

When a person says "I am a gay christian" and by this they mean that I am a christian and I openly embrace the gay lifestyle of having sexual relations with the same sex, then this is at odds with the teaching of scripture. One cannot be a christian and openly embrace and live sinful lifestyle regardless of what that sin is. This is rebellion toward God.

No it goes against your personal interpretation and your desire to justify your own petty hatred of a minority