My Challenge to the Conservative Christians

[selfinflikted]

I believe that there are forces of both good and evil that can influence people. I believe that these forces are supernatural and/or due to mental illness. I believe more today than I once did simply because I have had some experience with it.

Lisa

Lisa, don't get me wrong here. I strongly appreciate the manner in which you post on these boards - you're civil and really rather nice. But, I just have to say that, you've lost me on this. I just don't see how I can take much of anything you say seriously in light of this.

 

[Lisa0315]

And yet I cannot help but notice complete silence form her on the topic

Well, I cannot help but notice that you have targeted me ever since I posted in the Miami thread. Whatever...I got news for you. I do not care what you think of me.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, don't get me wrong here. I strongly appreciate the manner in which you post on these boards - you're civil and really rather nice. But, I just have to say that, you've lost me on this. I just don't see how I can take much of anything you say seriously in light of this.

Why would it be a stretch to believe in Satan and demons if one believes in God? I understand that if you do not believe in God, you are not going to exactly believe in Satan either. However, for a Christian, evil exists and it exists in both human and supernatural form.

Lisa

 

[The Nihilist]

Why would it be a stretch to believe in Satan and demons if one believes in God? I understand that if you do not believe in God, you are not going to exactly believe in Satan either. However, for a Christian, evil exists and it exists in both human and supernatural form.

Lisa

I'm pretty inclined to agree with Lisa on this one. If you're willing to admit the possibility of the existence of the supernatural, you're no longer in a position to say that this supernatural thing is credible while that one is not. I mean, a christian may not believe in demons, but they'd not be in a position to deny their possibility

 

[cantata]

I'm not sure. I can cope with God-as-a-first-cause, just about, but demons? To me it's in the realms of leprechauns and healing crystals.

 

[The Nihilist]

Christian's don't believe in God-as-first cause. They believe in one God, creator of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. That God has a son and has an enemy in hell and has prophets, and once you've bought into that, I'm not sure you're in a position to deny anything as absolutely incredible

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Faith, that's not true. Nonexistence cannot be proven. If you think it can, then please explain how such a proof would work.
Please note that proving that a thing is not a given location does not prove that such a thing does not exist

It's done all the time.

You have to prove the nonexistence of an event, of a person or of an object constantly when trying to solve something. The idea that you can't prove it seems like a cop out, especially considering how many people throw around the term that they HAVE proven the nonexistence of something when they think they have. Then when it's quickly debunked they go back to say that "Oh, you just can't prove the nonexistence of something". How do you expect me to explain how you prove the nonexistence of something as complicated as a holy figure. I can only give earthly examples and you'll always find holes in it because of that.

 

[jamielindas]

It's done all the time.

You have to prove the nonexistence of an event, of a person or of an object constantly when trying to solve something. The idea that you can't prove it seems like a cop out, especially considering how many people throw around the term that they HAVE proven the nonexistence of something when they think they have. Then when it's quickly debunked they go back to say that "Oh, you just can't prove the nonexistence of something". How do you expect me to explain how you prove the nonexistence of something as complicated as a holy figure. I can only give earthly examples and you'll always find holes in it because of that.

You're confusing the existence of something at a particular time or place to the existence of something at all. One requires checking a particular time and place, the other requires checking EVERY time and place.

What do I have to do to prove intelligent life exists in the universe? All I have to do is look at all of you. How can I prove intelligent life exists on venus? .... all I need is one specimen...

however...nonexistence is harder.

let's try this

What do I have to do to prove intelligent life doesn't exist on venus?
I can either 1) look at every location on venus or 2) show that intelligent life cannot exist on venus. I can actually do neither since 1) I can't look at a whole planet and 2) I would require the criteria necessary to sustain intelligent life (which is debatable). However, what we DO know about intelligent life says it is HIGHLY unlikely we would find intelligent life on venus, but not absolute.

How do I prove something supernatural exists? I need an event in the natural world that cannot be explained by anything natural.

How do I prove something supernatural doesn't exist? I can't... but since I have so little evidence for the affirmative, I can say it is unlikely, but not absolute.

 

[uberd00b]

Can you hear the irony?

I don't think I am. Just because one can give solid reasoning doesn't mean they do and even though they do, you can't prove the existence of God and yet many atheists make fun of Christians and Christianity for having "imaginary friends" which is, in affect, assuming they're right over an issue that can't be proven. And there are several people like this. They're just not as loud as some of the fundamentalist Christian wackos.

I was not thinking about the existence of God to be honest. More of moral or scientific points.

The theists are often (but not always) completely unable to justify their belief whereas the non-theists can generally give a good rationale as to why they believe something.

Fundies and non-believers are not equal in this respect.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Specifically, to the rigid-thinking fundamentalist Christians who think that they are right and everyone else is wrong:

Confidence is not rigidity. It is just confidence. Your attempt at painting Christians into your corner is a good place to see how truly enlightened Christians are, and your views are the rigid ones. Look how you wrote your sentence?

The world has not been heading to a utopia. Even the enlightened better-than-thou secularists are nasty beyond belief. Take abortion for example. To say that a fertilized human ovum is not a "complete" person, goes against science. It was never not going to be a human. It started out human and in fact, as a male or female human. When you examine the arguments FUNDY athesist and FUNDIE Humnaists stand on they look silly by their own convoluted logic.

What makes you think you have the absolute correct view, interpretation, and opinion on subjects such as ethics, the Bible, morality, science, philosophy--you name it?

We test all things. Christians have proven that they are free thinking people. Look at how many denominations and expressions of Christianity there are. Now look at FUNDY atheists. They are the lock-step bobbleheads on too many things.

Are the other people just blind? Stupid?

Since just about every Christian COMES FROM the atheist/secular/non-believer camp, the answer may indeed be yes.

"I was once blind and now I see."

Blind is not a bad position to hold on viewing the anti and non Christian crowd though.

"Stupid?" That only goes for the 0 x 0 = the universe crowd.

Why is your perspective right and theirs wrong?

We are not afraid of being questioned.

CHALLENGE: If you think that only your views can possibly be correct, and you cannot consider other people's opposing opinions and interpretations as equal to yours, please, enlighten me.

Here's your enlightening. Christian book stores have many, many books written to examine every position that opposes Christianity. I know of no Christian that hides their head in the sand. In fact, we can get graphic when necessary and risk getting banned by the supposedly tolerance and diversity crowd at places like this one. Whenever we give our adversaries a dose of their own medicine they whine and cry. Christian just keep examining and RE-examing their positions. The truth is not afraid of being called a liar. It's like water off a ducks back.

Tell me why their opinions, interpretations (including of the Bible), and perspectives are inferior to yours and cannot be considered equal?

This is where "duh" takes on the scholarly.


[quoteI look forward to your response.[/quote]

How enlightening.

 

[uberd00b]

The world has not been heading to a utopia.

But it's certainly improving, over the past few hundred years we've outlawed slavery, there have been improvements in workers rights, the negation of (most) sexual and racial discrimination, improvements in healthcare and living conditions, life expectancy has leapt up. Anyone who says things aren't getting better is hopelessly ignorant of the past.

It is of course (by definition) the conservatives who oppose these changes (any change at all).

When you examine the arguments FUNDY athesist and FUNDIE Humnaists stand on they look silly by their own convoluted logic.

Well that's your opinion.

We test all things. Christians have proven that they are free thinking people. Look at how many denominations and expressions of Christianity there are. Now look at FUNDY atheists. They are the lock-step bobbleheads on too many things.

You may want to rethink that, you believe that because Christianity (or any religion) cannot agree and fractures into many different denominations this is a point in their favour? It seems to me that religion gets further and further from the truth as time goes on. This is because of course nobody in religion can prove anything, it's all a matter of opinion.

Whereas the non-believers arrive at a common conclusion independently, apparently getting closer and closer to what is true. "Fundy atheists" (whatever they may be, I'm going to assume you mean atheists) are not "lock step bobbleheads" as I have already mentioned t hey arrive at their conclusion frequently independently. There is no dogma, no preacher, no church to instruct them, like there is in religion.

Blind is not a bad position to hold on viewing the anti and non Christian crowd though.

I would say you're projecting here, it is not the non-believers who try to ban books, films or media that challenges them. It's not non-believers who say "in the world not of the world", it's only believers who have such a fear of the real world.

"Stupid?" That only goes for the 0 x 0 = the universe crowd.

Is this dishonesty or ignorance? It's possibly nobody has pointed out how wrong you are with that statement yet. Or maybe they have and yet you repeat it anyway.

We are not afraid of being questioned.

As I mentioned above it's only the believers who try and ban and censor information they do not like. The facts stand against you.

I know of no Christian that hides their head in the sand.

"In the world, not of the world".

Christian just keep examining and RE-examing their positions.

If only that were true, I would say faith itself bars one from such a position. Non-believers are not hindered in such a way and are free to examine all viewpoints.

The truth is not afraid of being called a liar. It's like water off a ducks back.

I agree.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

The world has not been heading to a utopia.
​

But it's certainly improving, over the past few hundred years we've outlawed slavery, there have been improvements in workers rights, the negation of (most) sexual and racial discrimination, improvements in healthcare and living conditions, life expectancy has leapt up. Anyone who says things aren't getting better is hopelessly ignorant of the past.

It is of course (by definition) the conservatives who oppose these changes (any change at all).

Except for gay sex and ubiquitous porn and violence all over the world, all of the above make the Bible-affirming Christian anything BUT a conservative then.

Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

When you examine the arguments FUNDY athesist and FUNDIE Humnaists stand on they look silly by their own convoluted logic.
​

Well that's your opinion.

Well reasoned. Cuase and effect style.


Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

We test all things. Christians have proven that they are free thinking people. Look at how many denominations and expressions of Christianity there are. Now look at FUNDY atheists. They are the lock-step bobbleheads on too many things.
​

You may want to rethink that, you believe that because Christianity (or any religion) cannot agree and fractures into many different denominations this is a point in their favour? It seems to me that religion gets further and further from the truth as time goes on. This is because of course nobody in religion can prove anything, it's all a matter of opinion.

Many sceintists have only opinion to hang their positions on.

Whereas the non-believers arrive at a common conclusion independently, apparently getting closer and closer to what is true.

You're joking I hope. I've been to college. You disagree with your Liberal/Progressive/Darwinist/Marxist prof and see what happens. You don't get grades that will qualify you for the Masters program.

"Fundy atheists" (whatever they may be, I'm going to assume you mean atheists) are not "lock step bobbleheads" as I have already mentioned t hey arrive at their conclusion frequently independently. There is no dogma, no preacher, no church to instruct them, like there is in religion.

Evolution, Darwin, the Enlightenment. Doctrine, Prophet and dogma.

n. pl. dog·mas or dog·ma·ta (-m

-t

)
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them

Atheist, Darwinist/evolutionists are a lock-step group. Say: MICHAEL BEHE!!!! and watch and see if they don't act exactly like bobbleheads.


Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

Blind is not a bad position to hold on viewing the anti and non Christian crowd though.
​

I would say you're projecting here, it is not the non-believers who try to ban books, films or media that challenges them. It's not non-believers who say "in the world not of the world", it's only believers who have such a fear of the real world.

ID

BANNED!!!!!!!!


Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

"Stupid?" That only goes for the 0 x 0 = the universe crowd.
​

Is this dishonesty or ignorance? It's possibly nobody has pointed out how wrong you are with that statement yet. Or maybe they have and yet you repeat it anyway.

Something from nothing. Even at the sound level of the big bang, 0 x 0 = atheism/evolution. C'mon man. The math doesn't lie either.


Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

We are not afraid of being questioned.
​

As I mentioned above it's only the believers who try and ban and censor information they do not like. The facts stand against you.

I don't see Christian apologists running and hiding from the "nothing can create something" crowd. Not even in academia. But I do see Christians banned. Isn't there a movie out about that?


Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

I know of no Christian that hides their head in the sand.
​

"In the world, not of the world".

"In the world." No running and hiding. Just not imbibing of the world and its ways. That is in Christian doctrine. It also keeps one free of STD's, drugs and alcoholism. And no child support payments too. You can reason out the concept. It is quite sound advice.


Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

Christian just keep examining and RE-examing their positions.
​

[quoteIf only that were true, I would say faith itself bars one from such a position./quote]

I'll ask my "Born-again" surgeon what he thinks about that. He went through med school and is a very strong believer.

Non-believers are not hindered in such a way and are free to examine all viewpoints.

If only that were true. But by examining reality by cause and effect it appears that it isn't.


Originally Posted by Polycarp_fan

The truth is not afraid of being called a liar. It's like water off a ducks back.
​

I agree.

"Test all things . . ."

Very open-minded those faithful Christians.

 

[uberd00b]

Ok one more response as I fear we may be veering far from the topic or at least hijacking the thread. Sorry aeroz22 I just can't resist.

Except for gay sex and ubiquitous porn and violence all over the world, all of the above make the Bible-affirming Christian anything BUT a conservative then.

Sex (yes even gay sex) and violence have always existed. Violence is generally on the decrease, there certainly seem to be less nations at war than there were. Porn has also always existed but with modern media has sprung up quite a lot. All these things appear to be minor compared to the massive improvements made. You can live in relative security, prosperity and health, there is no danger of you being bought or sold, education is available to most etc etc, things are much better than they were. To then say "the sky is falling!" because some teenager can look at boobies on the internet seems a little disingenuous. Society has improved massively over the past coupe of centuries, of this there can be no doubt. We're not finished evolving our society though, I don't claim a utopia, yet.

Many sceintists have only opinion to hang their positions on.

Interesting isn't it? A bunch of people who would LOVE to disprove each others position all reach a common (though broad) consensus. They have no motivation to agree, for example the next scientist to knock the theory of evolution off it's pedestal would have world fame and unlimited research money. Yet they can't do it...

Compare this to conservative religion where information is accepted on authority and must not be questioned. Questions are discouraged as showing a "lack of faith" and a common answer to questions can be "just have faith". Theists are in general not free to question their assumptions.

You're joking I hope. I've been to college. You disagree with your Liberal/Progressive/Darwinist/Marxist prof and see what happens. You don't get grades that will qualify you for the Masters program.

You seem to have this backwards, teachers encourage debate and alternative viewpoints (in most classes, class disruption not allowed etc etc) but the thing is all viewpoints are not equal. Also teachers are required to actually instruct, if they have to stop the class to deal with someone espousing something that was disproved 200 years ago they'll likely get angry yes.

Now try standing up and disagreeing in church and see how long you're welcome.

Evolution, Darwin, the Enlightenment. Doctrine, Prophet and dogma.

n. pl. dog·mas or dog·ma·ta (-m

-t

)
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them

A non-believer need not have heard of any of those things to be a non-believer, your statement that there is some doctrine, prophet and dogma is incorrect.

Science is not doctrine, Darwin was not a prophet and the enlightenment is not a dogma, they are in fact pretty much diametrically opposed.

Atheist, Darwinist/evolutionists are a lock-step group. Say: MICHAEL BEHE!!!! and watch and see if they don't act exactly like bobbleheads.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but if you mention Michael Behe and someone points out that he's been soundly refuted and shows you how, this is not being in "lockstep". It's simply pointing out your mistake, if they used the same arguments it's because there are only so many to go around.

ID

BANNED!!!!!!!!

This is again either ignorance or dishonesty. ID is not banned, they're welcome to present some science the moment they perform any.

"Stupid?" That only goes for the 0 x 0 = the universe crowd.
​

Something from nothing. Even at the sound level of the big bang, 0 x 0 = atheism/evolution. C'mon man. The math doesn't lie either.

And yet the only people who say something came from nothing are theists. Ok I'll show you what I mean, but if you use this argument again you'll simply be bearing false witness.

Vague terms are gonna make for a vague equation but here goes;

You could say 0 x time = the universe, this would be marginally less incorrect, but still incorrect.

But if you wanted to be at least somewhat corect you should say; unknown x time = the universe. If you want to be honest use that equation in future.

I don't see Christian apologists running and hiding from the "nothing can create something" crowd. Not even in academia. But I do see Christians banned. Isn't there a movie out about that?

If you mean the laughable propaganda movie Expelled yes there is. It's been trounced all over the internet have a look around.

"In the world." No running and hiding. Just not imbibing of the world and its ways. That is in Christian doctrine. It also keeps one free of STD's, drugs and alcoholism. And no child support payments too. You can reason out the concept. It is quite sound advice.

And all the media that the religious attempt to ban? They very much hide themselves from modern society.

Ok, I'd better leave it at that, sorry OP!

 

[ReverendDG]

Except for gay sex and ubiquitous porn and violence all over the world, all of the above make the Bible-affirming Christian anything BUT a conservative then.

oh no the ghey sex!!! hide the children!
the world is better than it was, you can't cure everything in less than 100 years. ever hear of polio? umm how many people have it now in comparison to say 50 years ago? maybe a few thousand, over say.. millions.

Well reasoned. Cuase and effect style.

i guess thats the only way you can debate, pull people down to your level and say "see their just as bad as us!" this doesn't bode well for debate

Many sceintists have only opinion to hang their positions on.

good job you fail at understanding how science works, and only fundies would think that having 32k sects is a good thing.
funny that all of them do not accept what the others say isn't it?

please explain to me what could possibly make someone a fundie as an atheist?

You're joking I hope. I've been to college. You disagree with your Liberal/Progressive/Darwinist/Marxist prof and see what happens. You don't get grades that will qualify you for the Masters program.

yay for useless buzzwords! funny thing is, i had a conservative, christian, capitalist prof and she gave me bad grades, she was also a creationist and didn't like a paper i wrote about creationism

Evolution, Darwin, the Enlightenment. Doctrine, Prophet and dogma.

what dogma?

n. pl. dog·mas or dog·ma·ta (-m

-t

)

1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.

no churches here

2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.

science doesn't believe its absolute

3. A principle or belief or a group of them

then pretty much everything is dogma and it loses all meaning

Atheist, Darwinist/evolutionists are a lock-step group. Say: MICHAEL BEHE!!!! and watch and see if they don't act exactly like bobbleheads.

uh what?
that didn't make any sense, behe is a TE, and a lot of evolution supporters are TE and christian i might add
and atheists could careless about behe.

oh i see now, you use them interchangeably, good job, you made the words you used useless

ID

BANNED!!!!!!!!

banned from where? science class is about science, not about unsupported nonsense. ID has no working theories, no models, it doesn't even go near who the designer is

Something from nothing. Even at the sound level of the big bang, 0 x 0 = atheism/evolution. C'mon man. The math doesn't lie either.

who says something came from nothing, and the BB has nothing to do with evolution
FAIL
who cares about the probability of a past event? its a waste of time arguing whether the BB or life is possible as it has already happened.
oh and this has nothing to with evolution, FAIL

I don't see Christian apologists running and hiding from the "nothing can create something" crowd. Not even in academia. But I do see Christians banned. Isn't there a movie out about that?

of course your not afraid, you just ignore the questions, never questioning anything you believe
its easy to feel invincible when you flat-out never answer questions posed by non-believers
oh and expelled is a bunch of lies and propaganda. nothing in that movie is true

"In the world." No running and hiding. Just not imbibing of the world and its ways. That is in Christian doctrine. It also keeps one free of STD's, drugs and alcoholism. And no child support payments too. You can reason out the concept. It is quite sound advice.

i know of plenty of christians who hide their heads in the sand: creationists,rapturists, and people who believe they are better than everyone else for being christian when they really aren't

I'll ask my "Born-again" surgeon what he thinks about that. He went through med school and is a very strong believer.

what pray-tell does the surgeon do that requires him to ever question his beliefs?
what if they find some new type of surgery that denies one of his beliefs? will he fall behind on new surgeries just because it conflicts with his beliefs?
or would he think about all the things that have come before that have helped mankind that conflicted with earlier healers and realize that healing the sick is more important than a belief about god, when god could very well be pushing the doctor to move from the old belief into the new?

If only that were true. But by examining reality by cause and effect it appears that it isn't.

nice argument from ignorance, "stuff is too complex for me to understand it, there-for god did it"
i think most non-christians have looked at both sides, they find the christian side wanting, christians only seem to be able to say "you just don't understand! you're not christian!"

Very open-minded those faithful Christians.

the truth is the truth, but can you show christian beliefs about god are true? what makes christianity more truthful than say islam?
in all the time debating those who claim christianity is 100% true. they've only been able to special plead or make claims they can't support.

if christianity was true i mean absolutely true, it would be self evident, not just subjective

anyway, i went back and realized PF has no clue how quotes worked

 

[cantata]

Good grief. What a ridiculous thread.

 

[The Nihilist]

Can we talk about how there's no such thing as an atheist fundamentalist, and how referring to atheists as fundamentalists is a way to make us look as ridiculous as some christians do? Or would that require a different thread?

 

[cantata]

Can we talk about how there's no such thing as an atheist fundamentalist, and how referring to atheists as fundamentalists is a way to make us look as ridiculous as some christians do? Or would that require a different thread?

Oooh, new thread, please!

Fun

 

[Lisa0315]

Can we talk about how there's no such thing as an atheist fundamentalist, and how referring to atheists as fundamentalists is a way to make us look as ridiculous as some christians do? Or would that require a different thread?

Well, a better term would be militant atheists vs non-theists.

Lisa

 

[selfinflikted]

Why would it be a stretch to believe in Satan and demons if one believes in God? I understand that if you do not believe in God, you are not going to exactly believe in Satan either. However, for a Christian, evil exists and it exists in both human and supernatural form.

Lisa

Sure. It's no stretch to believe in other supernatural entities.. if you believe in one, it only follows that there could be more. But you lost me on the "possession" part of it. Can't you imagine how many innocent "possessed" people that were put to death centuries ago, because we had no understanding of mental illness? I just find it... distressing that in this day and age people would still believe in 'demonic possession' when we know all that we do about mental illness.

I'm pretty inclined to agree with Lisa on this one. If you're willing to admit the possibility of the existence of the supernatural, you're no longer in a position to say that this supernatural thing is credible while that one is not. I mean, a christian may not believe in demons, but they'd not be in a position to deny their possibility

See above.

 

[WarEagle]

Specifically, to the rigid-thinking fundamentalist Christians who think that they are right and everyone else is wrong:

What makes you think you have the absolute correct view, interpretation, and opinion on subjects such as ethics, the Bible, morality, science, philosophy--you name it?

Are the other people just blind? Stupid? Why is your perspective right and theirs wrong?

CHALLENGE: If you think that only your views can possibly be correct, and you cannot consider other people's opposing opinions and interpretations as equal to yours, please, enlighten me. Tell me why their opinions, interpretations (including of the Bible), and perspectives are inferior to yours and cannot be considered equal? I look forward to your response.

The Bible is the standard. Either your opinion lines up with the Bible or it doesn't.