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the changing speed of light. dad, this thread is for you

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NailsII

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No, I am not aware that there was any radioactive decay at all. Neither was our light faster. The change was NOT IN our light! Our light is the result of the change in the other state universe. Life processes were very different, yes. As they will be again, in the future.
So, the universe stayed the same but all the light changed - you do realise that makes no sense at all, don't you?
You will find that there are no star maps beyond the split! No records outside our records, of life on earth, that are reliable. We have the monopoly on the record, and we also have the future state records! Science ought to lick the dust from the soles of our feet, not we from it's.
What split?
Really, now?? I think you mean SOME creatures were like that, but, as Eden's creatures migrated out from Eden, that is to be expected in some cases.
Go and have a look in a museum sometime - and a proper one.
You will see all these wonderful, strange-looking transitional creatures. Strange how they all line up according to evolutionary theory, and correclate with geological dating techniques and radio-isotope dating.
Well, there were a lot of different kinds of apes, so? For all I know, some of them might have resulted from wicked pre flood man. Naturally some similarities would be expected.
That's a joke, right?
Well, if an ice age came, we might need some extra hair. Other changes likely would reflect our changing world and universe state. If we could evolve and adapt real fast, this is par for the course.
So god tinkered with our genes just in case there was an ice-age....
Even though biblical time does not allow for an ice-age, and I don't believe one is mentioned in said book.
DNA evidence doesn't work for the future, it only records what was successful in the past.
So we used to be apes and have vestigal fur, our genitals begin development near our hearts (as in fish)and so our connective tubes are all over the pace (similar patterns are seen in nerves by the way, particulalry the cranial/facial nerves.
In short, virtually every feature in humans can be traced back to an earlier ancestor - except our supposed great intelligence; which some of us disregard too easily.

No problem. Rapid evolving was needed. It makes perfect sense to have creatures able to move over land and water. In fact, I would almost suspect, that such creatures would be out front in the migration.
But the sea creatures would have been very limited on land, that is why they evolved further. Watch a mudskipper struggle in a drought and you are looking back around 380 million years to what their ancestors may well have done.
No. You seem to lock into how ERVs are transmitted at the present time. No such limits exist, unless you prove a present state in the past. You can't.
nonsense. Viral transmission cannot have been any different, we would be able to detect DNA changes.What you fail to appreciate here is how compounding this evidence is alone, we evolved from an ape-like creature and share a common ancestor (approx. 6 million years ago) with chimps and bonobos.
Fact.
Yes there is. It might be a bit long for this thread.
I ould love to hear it.
Start a new thread if you'd like.
That is nothing. I could see chimps being a result of sex with wicked man. Or, perhaps, that the viral ancestors transmitted by sex, and other ways. Possibly even in some less then malevolent way.
You really have no idea what you're talking about, have you.
Not true. No great time was needed.
But you don't have it, you only have around 6,000 years.
The evidence show us that no body to human body took around 600 million years.
Really? How is that? I think someone threw one past you there.
When people don't have children until they are 100 (like abraham) then you have a vastly reduced rate of reproduction.

Well, Cainan was cursed for what he did to Noah. Sounds like it had an effect. Cain also had some mark put on him, that is an effect. We don't know what kind. For all I know, maybe God made him real short. Like the hobbit men in Flores? The serpent was changed, and it seems right quick. Eve started to have problems in child birth as a result of sin. One king went down on all fours, and had hairs like eagle feathers, and ate grass of the field for seven years! I can't see how sin would not affect people. Especially in a time when there was a different life process.
Yeah, cursed for having a laugh at a drunken man.
And again, provide evidence for a change in life processes. At least show us when life became normal and not inhabited by demons and grass-eating king birds.
i don't even think you can take that literally and believe it, I thought more of you.
It all takes a long time in this present state. No reflection on a past state.
Yawn.
The implications of the bible are a lot more staggering that that. People will rise up from being dead as a door nail. There will be no more sickness at all. Nor death. We will live forever and ever. There is coming a time when not one dead body will be ever in the earth, or any graveyards at all.
Dream on.
It is, every bit as much as yours! The same evolving takes place, the only question is the starting point.
And the timescale, and your idea needs a guiding hand more complex than the univerese itself.
Not till they filter it through the PO past myth first.
Better than the book of nonsense myth.
At least it is backed by observation instead of superstition.
 
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dad

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No, just the stupid list of unclean ones.
I like crab, lobster, prawns and shrimps.
OK, got it. God should have suggested your favorite foods, in the past, for His people. Let the little pork wigglies have a nice time, and carry those crab legs for days in the hot sun. Mmm. Guess it never occurred to you He might know what He is doing.
Pig too, I love ham and pork. Bacon sandwiches. Sausages. Lovely.
In fairness the whole book of Leviticus is just stupid.
It had a place, and a time. Savage man, that had become His people needed some guidelines, apparently getting started out. They were not laws for all men, remember.
Senseless deaths:
[bible]leviticus 10:1-2[/bible]
When was the last time you saw an insect with four legs?
[bible]leviticus 11:20[/bible]
The insect that went on all fours, far as I can tell, actually 'went' on four wings. Count em!!
"
Le 11:42 - Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goethall four, upon or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.
50000111.JPG

How do you think these things "go"??!

Silly me, they must have evolved them in the last 3,000 years.
Actually, Lev was after the split, so we should not look for any rapid evolving. All you need to look at is how those things go, and get around, usually.

I'm suprised these poor sods ever found ANYTHING to eat:
[bible]leviticus 11:41-42[/bible]
leviticus 12 is just stupidity beyond stupidity. Ignorance of the highest level ever seen amonsgt humans.
That is because you miss the forest for the trees. You miss God, and that leaves just stupidity. Look at the education system today!

And this must be a close second:[bible]leviticus 15:19-24[/bible]An issue is to menstruate by the way.
If realizing you don't don't do the wild thing with a girl on that week is news, I don't know if I can help you much.

[bible]leviticus 18:18[/bible]But it's not OK when she's alive? Wow, that's sensitive.
I take it you mean that having more than one wife was something horrid. Some bible expositors agree. Personally, it is not on the list of big concerns about ancient customs of the people of God. Not at all. In the case of Sarah, and Abraham, if I recall, it was Sarah's idea. Not sure what kinky stuff went down there.

Stupid rules:
[bible]leviticus 19:27-28[/bible]
God's intrusion into personal sexual activities:
[bible]leviticus 20:18[/bible]
Her sickness by the way, is menstruation.
I can't go on, I'm losing the will to live.....
[/QUOTE]
Right, and uncovering her then was not a good idea, obviously. Not sure where you are coming from, or what you might be suggesting. Surely you are not saying you engage in intercourse with women on their period?
I am losing my will to eat lunch.
 
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dad

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No, just the stupid list of unclean ones.
I like crab, lobster, prawns and shrimps.
OK, got it. God should have suggested your favorite foods, in the past, for His people. Let the little pork wigglies have a nice time, and carry those crab legs for days in the hot sun. Mmm. Guess it never occurred to you He might know what He is doing.
Pig too, I love ham and pork. Bacon sandwiches. Sausages. Lovely.
In fairness the whole book of Leviticus is just stupid.
It had a place, and a time. Savage man, that had become His people needed some guidelines, apparently getting started out. They were not laws for all men, remember.
Senseless deaths:
[bible]leviticus 10:1-2[/bible]
When was the last time you saw an insect with four legs?
[bible]leviticus 11:20[/bible]
The insect that went on all fours, far as I can tell, actually 'went' on four wings. Count em!!
"
Le 11:42 - Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goethall four, upon or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.
50000111.JPG

How do you think these things "go"??!

Silly me, they must have evolved them in the last 3,000 years.
Actually, Lev was after the split, so we should not look for any rapid evolving. All you need to look at is how those things go, and get around, usually.

I'm suprised these poor sods ever found ANYTHING to eat:
[bible]leviticus 11:41-42[/bible]
leviticus 12 is just stupidity beyond stupidity. Ignorance of the highest level ever seen amonsgt humans.
That is because you miss the forest for the trees. You miss God, and that leaves just stupidity. Look at the education system today!

And this must be a close second:[bible]leviticus 15:19-24[/bible]An issue is to menstruate by the way.
If realizing you don't don't do the wild thing with a girl on that week is news, I don't know if I can help you much.

[bible]leviticus 18:18[/bible]But it's not OK when she's alive? Wow, that's sensitive.
I take it you mean that having more than one wife was something horrid. Some bible expositors agree. Personally, it is not on the list of big concerns about ancient customs of the people of God. Not at all. In the case of Sarah, and Abraham, if I recall, it was Sarah's idea. Not sure what kinky stuff went down there.

Stupid rules:
[bible]leviticus 19:27-28[/bible]
God's intrusion into personal sexual activities:
[bible]leviticus 20:18[/bible]
Her sickness by the way, is menstruation.
I can't go on, I'm losing the will to live.....
Right, and uncovering her then was not a good idea, obviously. Not sure where you are coming from, or what you might be suggesting. Surely you are not saying you engage in intercourse with women on their period?
I am losing my will to eat lunch.
 
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NailsII

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No, based on level headed absolute deduction from what was said. What is abstract is your claim that the trees could not grow fast. Prove it.
Any tree that could grow that fast must be super-efficient and would have passe don these efficient genes to modern trees - but we don't see that, do we.
So the logical conclusion is that the trees survived for 140 days underwater.
If it ever happened, that is.
As a matter of fact, since it was after the flood that we started to eat meat, and likely a lot of creatures also started, and our life spans were still near a thousand years, I could see some real differences in excretions. I could also see that some bacteria might have been well suited to recycle waste in a way we never dream of today. I could also see God inducing a state of hibernation, or semi hibernation in many creatures. I could also see that God may have put in some sort of disposal system, that went out to the waters.
You may see, but you do not read it.
I can speculate as well, but it don't mean [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth].
If you hold the book up to be absolute truth, you can't make stuff up just to fill in the gaps.
As there is no geologicla evidence of a worldwide flood, it never happend. End of story.
There is however evidence of a global ice-age and 99% of the earth being covered with ice....
OK. I figure it didn't take the vines long to grow back then.
That's because it was just a local flood, but they thought the whole world was covered.

No, demonstrable fact. You cannot take the present state to the past.
What state - you still havn't provided any evidence for this.

I do not think that the dust was something highly literal. More like an insult. You know, that serpent was real proud. But any creature right down on the ground, and rocks is bound to take in some dust. I mean, if it eats something, there may be some dust on it! Give it up.
Some insult, virtually alll lizards around today crawl on their bellies. Even a snake with legs would have
been sliding its belly on the ground when it walked.
But if I could give you examples of women that had painless childbirth without pain relief, does that mean they're pure or saved from this curse?
No, they were a lesson that we could not be good without God's help.
Luckily other cultures found this out without god's help.
So I think it wasn' much help.
I find them quite compatible. The Egyptians messed with some spirits. Many peoples did.
But nowadyas we know better, right?
Ah, no, I see it as fitting just fine. The dates that man generally uses for early Egypt are wrong wrong wrong.
This will take some serious evidence on your part.
I don't know. But there were no rules I ever heard of against in family sex then.
Not in that culture, but there may have been in others.
It means that the new heavens of the bible is similar to Eden. Man lives forever, the tree of life is there, different plant growth, etc etc. The key to understanding the past, is to look at the future state. Not to look at the temporary present state.
No. The creatures will change again, and eat straw.
Whatever.

No, faith remains. Men depart. Some even call that rational.
So what happens when the faith withers and dies, as it is doing all across the world right now?
 
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dad

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I knew you would jump on that. I threw out the meat and you came down on it like a wolf. In your haste you've tripped and further shown how absurd your thought processes are.

Most unfortunately for you, Dad, the fact that we don't know if the universe ever changed has absolutely no bearing on evolution. It does not disprove evolution.
Stellar evolution is part and parcel of the crock, in case you missed that. Also, obviously, for the flood waters to not boil mankind, and be able to stay up, and go away, and for rapid evolution, plant growth, long lifespans, etc tec. we do need a different universe state. You stand corrected.

Dad, you're position is so shaky that this single notion brings it down:

I can turn everything you said around and it will be artillery against your position. How about I say that because you have no proof the the universe ever changed, just as we indeed have no proof that it was always the same, you too are molesting children's minds by teaching them 'truths' that have no factual basis, just as you believe we are teaching children 'truths' that have no factual basis?
You are shooting blanks, learn the difference! I am not setting the curriculum for the education system. That moots your point totally. The ones that do the crime need to do the time. Not those that walk by the jail.


Just as we have no proof, neither do you. This does not make either of our positions correct.
You have a so called science case, however, and need more than religion!! Where is it??? You admit you have nothing. This is a scream.

We will simply have to settle on: Neither of us know, and that's that.
No, you are the one that waved the white flag of surrender here, not me!! You admit your case is busted something fierce! You admit you have no evidence whatsoever for the underlying mother of assumptions that claims of the past and future are based on! We are not in the same boat at all. Yours just sunk, in case you missed that! Mine is sailing along through history, testified to in the hearts and lives, and experiences of millions of real people. Our record is observed. Our case is rock solid. We ain't going nowhere.
In the meantime, we will continue to teach science, because it has bearing on the real world today.
It is not the bearing on the real world that is in question, just the fantasy claims that you admit have nothing at all to them. Pretend you are not busted all you like. Watch out, it could catch up to y'all one day.

We will also continue research onto how the universe was formed;
No you will not!!! You will fantasize. You cannot explore a created state universe, or the future, so calm down.
you are severely misinformed if you believe that scientists simply accept that the Big Bang Theory is actually what happened.
No, it is still the predominant theory, wiggle away from it if you will.
I don't blame you.

Of course they are still asking questions and thinking and hypothesizing. That is how we learn.
That is how you wish you could learn, but never will come to a knowledge of the truth that route. Never.
And in the process of progress in the sciences, we may very well come across evidence that does show what happened.
Dream on. Prophesy all you like, as well, it means nothing.
We would rather do such a thing, and encourage others to also, than to say GODDIDIT and forget about it.

So, you have no clue, as you yourself admit, yet you want to direct the educating of children away from God. I see.

Such is the battle for the earth. To the fray, then.
 
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NailsII

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So? If slavery is wrong, tell the government to stop taxing people so much they slave for the government more than half the year.
Not the same thing, is it.
No, but in the past, that was often what had to be done.
And they did it, boy did they do it. Shame they were not told when to stop.
That reflects what man is ready for. We are being brought along.
So we had the god of war, then peace, what's next? God of war again, of course!!
He is a God that has many facets. He never usually had to have His people get too rough. There was that time when He knew something we don't know now. Those that know His true nature, understand that there was a good reason for it.
Too rough = infanticide?
You do not want to pick a fight with the Almighty, no.
Because he is a bully.:doh:
That is nice. I figure maybe we ought to give the child the rights, and let them decide if the mom should live, when they reach the age of decision! 'You mom was going to snuff you, is it thumbs up, or thumbs down, kid?'
:cool:
the term "nested hierarchy". This refers to the type of pattern that you get when you consider characteristics of a bunch of different species, and group the species together by how similar they are in the characteristics."
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/apr00.html
Similarities are to be expected, in any full spectrum creation, worth it's salt.
"There is an easy explanation for this using the theory of evolution. There is not an easy explanation using notions of design -- or rather, all the explanations end up saying that the designer happened to choose, out of all the possible patterns, the one that also makes it look like evolution happened. "
Taken from your source.
Similarities are to be expected in a created world, but we don't genereally see similarities. We see homologies, and that is evidence for evolution by natural selection.
Maybe there was more oxygen before the flood. As for ape like gait, not sure which tree that fell out of.
Yet all the evidence suggests that there was significantly less oxygen in the past, pre-cambrian period.
The evidence of the past and future states does not exist for your same state past and future. The bible is evidence it existed in history.
The bible is not evidence, it is a book of faith.
Says you. But you really have no idea.
OK, 'young woman' being mistranslated as 'virgin' and Judas being portrayed as evil because he 'betrayed' Jesus as opposed to 'handing over' which is a more literal translation.
A true holding to account would deal in facts, not paganistic foaming at the mouth.
You may use that term, but it applies more when turned at yourself.
So you believed man. OK.
No, because man wrote the bible.
Why must there? We are the evidence. The bible is also evidence. Other than that, just pipe down, cause you certainly have none, and never will.
No, we are the evidence of evolution. The bible is evidence of our evolution; we were once a superstitious people who needed to invent gods to fill the gaps in our knowledge.
There is some reality to some of the gods and spirits of the Greeks. In this case, it might be more of the pure BS variety.
Really.
:doh:
Well, the really was in the comparison between the two choices, Not that I really think a ghost shook squat. The facts have nothing to do with the big bang. It is purely extrapolation, based on partial facts i.e. the present state.
I think that was about my not thinking the US is a Christian country. No, I do not. How someone like Obama could be popular should be proof of that. What gets me, is why he would have two horns as a lamb, when he speaks as a dragon.
Big bang fits the observations, therefore there is very little reason to doubt it. It doesn't answer everything, so there is a good chance there is something else at work. Whether or not string theory fits the bill, only time will tell.
And as for Obama, I have very little opinion because I don't know the guy. Tells fewer lies than Hillary, so he can't be all that bad.
Well, some seem less than convinced.
"Sometimes objects around her would fly off the shelves, the rare phenomenon of psychokinesis known to parapsychologists,"
from your source.
Parapsychology might know supernatural phenomena, real science doesn't. Simple reason - no real scientise has ever seen it.
Funny how superstitious mumbo-jumbo attracts suprstitious people.....
Maybe some men's. Others prefer the God of Peace,and love.
There is no doubt in my mind that many of Jesus' teachings were good, honest and set a good example for people to follow. But they are a long way short of a god of peace and justice.
No ideas of a democracy, which although not good is a hundred fold better than biblical ruling and occupation.
Equality regardless of sex would have been nice as well.
Abolishion of slavery, no he didn't go for that either.
Instead he introduces eternal hellfire and damnation, complete with wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Some peace that is, sounds like a bully all over again. But with fewer teeth.
 
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NailsII

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OK, got it. God should have suggested your favorite foods, in the past, for His people. Let the little pork wigglies have a nice time, and carry those crab legs for days in the hot sun. Mmm. Guess it never occurred to you He might know what He is doing.
Obviously not. Look around, some design.
It had a place, and a time. Savage man, that had become His people needed some guidelines, apparently getting started out. They were not laws for all men, remember.
No, the book is stupid.
Stupid laws, stupid people.
The insect that went on all fours, far as I can tell, actually 'went' on four wings. Count em!!
"
Le 11:42 - Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goethall four, upon or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.
50000111.JPG

How do you think these things "go"??!
Looks like a Desert Locust (Schistocerca gregaria) to me, and they have six legs. Maybe you hould have looked a little more closely at the image you posted first.....
SGR_laying.jpg

Actually, Lev was after the split, so we should not look for any rapid evolving. All you need to look at is how those things go, and get around, usually.
I'm looking.....
That is because you miss the forest for the trees. You miss God, and that leaves just stupidity. Look at the education system today!
I don't miss a deity at all, and I fail to see how my choice of non-religion has anything to do with the failings of the American education system.
If realizing you don't don't do the wild thing with a girl on that week is news, I don't know if I can help you much.
But why does it matter?
Why is god so obsessed with sex and virgins and menstruation?
I take it you mean that having more than one wife was something horrid. Some bible expositors agree. Personally, it is not on the list of big concerns about ancient customs of the people of God. Not at all. In the case of Sarah, and Abraham, if I recall, it was Sarah's idea. Not sure what kinky stuff went down there.
i can understand Sarah's idea as she was unable to have children. Maybe she could have tried with someone else, but she was never given the option of taking a second husband - and that' the whole point.
Right, and uncovering her then was not a good idea, obviously. Not sure where you are coming from, or what you might be suggesting. Surely you are not saying you engage in intercourse with women on their period?
I am losing my will to eat lunch.
Again, why not leave it to personal choice.
Why does God have to outlaw it on pain of...... being ostrocised?
 
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Danyc

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Stellar evolution is part and parcel of the crock, in case you missed that. Also, obviously, for the flood waters to not boil mankind, and be able to stay up, and go away, and for rapid evolution, plant growth, long lifespans, etc tec. we do need a different universe state. You stand corrected.

We have evidence for Stellar Evolution. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether a past state existed or not; Stellar Evolution is there.

Unfortunately for you, the Flood never happened. So we don't need a different universe state for something that never existed.




You are shooting blanks, learn the difference! I am not setting the curriculum for the education system. That moots your point totally. The ones that do the crime need to do the time. Not those that walk by the jail.

Oh, sorry Dad. I didn't realize that it was wrong to teach children what MOST LIKELY HAPPENED at opposed to what most liekly DID NOT happen. On one hand, we have what is being taught now, which is based on observation and educated guessing. And then there's what you would have us teach, which is just as bad if not worse, and is, at the very bottom, a product of GODDIDIT.



You have a so called science case, however, and need more than religion!! Where is it??? You admit you have nothing. This is a scream.

Just as we have no proof, neither do you. This does not make either of our positions correct.





No, you are the one that waved the white flag of surrender here, not me!! You admit your case is busted something fierce!

You mistake a lack of knowledge for a forfeit. It is not so. You lack the same knowledge, and have no more than we do. Therefore, we both lose. Nobody wins.


You admit you have no evidence whatsoever for the underlying mother of assumptions that claims of the past and future are based on!

And you have yet to tell us why we should think otherwise.

We are not in the same boat at all.

Keep paddling! If I'm going down, you're going down with me! We're in the same boat, after all.

Yours just sunk, in case you missed that!

A ver....Nope, still dry.


Mine is sailing along through history, testified to in the hearts and lives, and experiences of millions of real people. Our record is observed. Our case is rock solid. We ain't going nowhere.

I suppose you're talking about the millions of people who have been Christians.

It's too bad the majority have never seen god face-to-face. Too bad they never had any evidence, but a faith.

But wait! That doesn't matter, because they felt him there, in their hearts.
So did the followers of every other god. Have you ever wondered why the evidence for every single god in the world is the same? I can feel him in me, in my heart!

Keep thinking that constitutes evidence.


No you will not!!! You will fantasize. You cannot explore a created state universe, or the future, so calm down.

Hahah, that was good.

No, it is still the predominant theory, wiggle away from it if you will.
I don't blame you.

What I mean to say is that many scientists know that there are unknowns, and that it is their job to continue the search. They understand that there is more to learn and to discover.







So, you have no clue, as you yourself admit, yet you want to direct the educating of children away from God. I see.

So, you have no clue, except a faith in the bible, yet you want to direct the educating of children away from Shiva. I see.
 
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dad

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So, the universe stayed the same but all the light changed - you do realise that makes no sense at all, don't you?
What split?
Yes, I realize that makes no sense. How you cooked up that from the thing you quoted, heaven knows.
"The change was NOT IN our light! Our light is the result of the change in the other state universe"
So, the change was not in our light, neither is our light the same light. It is what was left, that can exist, and was meant to exist in this temporary universe. If our light was the same light, it would not take a long time to get here. Even the universe it travels in is different.

Go and have a look in a museum sometime - and a proper one.
You will see all these wonderful, strange-looking transitional creatures. Strange how they all line up according to evolutionary theory, and correclate with geological dating techniques and radio-isotope dating.
Not at all, how would it be strange that the evo theory expects missing links in the full spectrum of creation? All it does, is try to attribute the missing creatures to nothing but evolution. It doesn't know where to start, or where to stop. It simply interprets all through it's Creatorless belief system.

That's a joke, right?
Not at all, with all the life process differences, why rule it out?

So god tinkered with our genes just in case there was an ice-age....
Even though biblical time does not allow for an ice-age, and I don't believe one is mentioned in said book.
Biblical time allows for everything. A change in the climate, and conditions, after the flood sometime, many feel. Our ability to adapt included to hot and cold.

DNA evidence doesn't work for the future, it only records what was successful in the past.
And not that far back, either. So?
So we used to be apes and have vestigal fur, our genitals begin development near our hearts (as in fish)and so our connective tubes are all over the pace (similar patterns are seen in nerves by the way, particulalry the cranial/facial nerves.
Sorry, fetuses growing sex organs close to their heart does not mean we are fish. That is absurd. Nor does it mean we came from fish. Talk about fishbowl philosophy! Filthy dreams.

In short, virtually every feature in humans can be traced back to an earlier ancestor - except our supposed great intelligence; which some of us disregard too easily.
No, it can't. Just because we have eyes, and flies have eyes, does not mean that we came from flies. I have to tell you this??? Of course, I notice that the flatworm was called man's closest ancestor! Behold, the theory!!

But the sea creatures would have been very limited on land, that is why they evolved further. Watch a mudskipper struggle in a drought and you are looking back around 380 million years to what their ancestors may well have done.
Does not matter at all if some creatures did evolve to get around on the migration from Eden! It never came from the mud. It came from some created creature, or maybe even was a created creature. Who knows? Is there some particular reason God would not make some creatures like that??
nonsense. Viral transmission cannot have been any different, we would be able to detect DNA changes.
Who said there even were viri? Do we know that? Or are we talking the ancestor of the virus? Tell us how you would detect DNA changes from a different past ancestral of a virus!!?

What you fail to appreciate here is how compounding this evidence is alone, we evolved from an ape-like creature and share a common ancestor (approx. 6 million years ago) with chimps and bonobos.
Fact.
Balderdash. I am not sure why you like telling stories. Any real ties genetically to said creatures would be from either wicked pre flood man, and/or the different life processes of the past, and things like the different ways the ancestor of a virus may have spread.
But you don't have it, you only have around 6,000 years.
The evidence show us that no body to human body took around 600 million years.
No, nothing at all shows that. Your assumed evolution in a present state from nothing dreams that.

When people don't have children until they are 100 (like abraham) then you have a vastly reduced rate of reproduction.
Not if God wants babies. Proof for that is Abe's wife, having one when 90 years old. Most people I recall in the lists had kids some at 30 or 35 years old. In fact, that was the firstborn son, that was mentioned, so they maybe had tons of girls before that.


Yeah, cursed for having a laugh at a drunken man.
One suspects there was more to it. How would Noah have realized something went on, after he woke up?
And again, provide evidence for a change in life processes.
Science can't go back there at all. The bible speaks of many differences, and about the time they had to happen.

And the timescale, and your idea needs a guiding hand more complex than the univerese itself.

The created state nature worked a different way, and it can't be locked into the present processes, and scales. But, of course, the creation required God. Not like it popped out of a spark or something.
 
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dad

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Any tree that could grow that fast must be super-efficient and would have passe don these efficient genes to modern trees - but we don't see that, do we.
You assume that the growth rate was possible due to genes. I don't. I figure maybe something more like atomic level changes, and a different light.
So the logical conclusion is that the trees survived for 140 days underwater.
If it ever happened, that is.
No, all that was needed is a seed. Besides, that was not Noah's job. God must have taken care of that department.

You may see, but you do not read it.
I can speculate as well, but it don't mean [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth].
If you hold the book up to be absolute truth, you can't make stuff up just to fill in the gaps.

The gaps are in your head.

As there is no geologicla evidence of a worldwide flood, it never happend. End of story.
The continental separation, ice age, and a lot of other things apparently happened after the flood. You have not known what to look for. Those that look for something at the 4500 year level, according to man's reckoning of time have been on a wild goose chase.

There is however evidence of a global ice-age and 99% of the earth being covered with ice....
Really? Can you show me some ice evidence near the equator? How about even Mexico, or Israel?

That's because it was just a local flood, but they thought the whole world was covered.
In your head.

What state - you still havn't provided any evidence for this.
The state you can't evidence by science. The one that you know squat about. The one where most of this stuff happened.
Some insult, virtually alll lizards around today crawl on their bellies.
Not all lizards were changed from some former higher state of creature. If you had to lick dust it might hit you harder than it bothers an iguana.


But if I could give you examples of women that had painless childbirth without pain relief, does that mean they're pure or saved from this curse?
It means that they are exceptional. Now, how many go through many pregnancies the same breezy way? Not a lot.
Luckily other cultures found this out without god's help.
So I think it wasn' much help.
Any culture that thinks they are not sinners, if such a thing exists, do not get along fine at all.
But nowadyas we know better, right?
This will take some serious evidence on your part.
Piece of cake. Nothing dates Egypt, of any consequence, but radioactive decay so called dating. That means, of course, PO past state assumption dating, which is worthless.

Not in that culture, but there may have been in others.
Whatever.
I think Abraham was only several hundred years after the flood, or some such. You would need to get to early Egypt, or Sumer, to beat that.

So what happens when the faith withers and dies, as it is doing all across the world right now?
It grows somewhere else. I hear, for example, that there are more bible believing Christians in China, than in the US. South America is going great guns with all sorts of faith springing up. Etc. But, I would think that the people that forsake faith, if they had it, are the ones that suffer. Pretty soon, they will have to get down and dirty, and outright worship the devil anyhow. So, faith will be here in one form or another.
 
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dad

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Obviously not. Look around, some design.
No, the book is stupid.
Stupid laws, stupid people.
Peoples opinion of the bible reflect more where they are at, than on the bible.

Looks like a Desert Locust (Schistocerca gregaria) to me, and they have six legs. Maybe you hould have looked a little more closely at the image you posted first.....
locusts-swarm.jpg

No need, it is well known, how they really get around. How they go. And that is on all fours, of course. All four wings. When they putter around the ground, they use the legs.


I'm looking.....
I don't miss a deity at all, and I fail to see how my choice of non-religion has anything to do with the failings of the American education system.But why does it matter?
Don't blame it on America. Your myth in the schools in your country is all you need to look at.

Why is god so obsessed with sex and virgins and menstruation?
i can understand Sarah's idea as she was unable to have children. Maybe she could have tried with someone else, but she was never given the option of taking a second husband - and that' the whole point.
Well, I don't know, it sounds like she may have gotten pretty close to some men in Egypt, and places. The pair lied, and said she was just Abe's sister.
The point was that God promised Abraham a son. Sarah taking another husband would not solve that at all. In fact, I think it would have made her an adulteress.

Again, why not leave it to personal choice.
Why does God have to outlaw it on pain of...... being ostrocised?
Well, I don't see any reason they should have disobeyed God, and not let the woman rest in that time.
I never really considered that some people actually think some choice is involved there. But I'll leave that one.
 
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dad

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Not the same thing, is it.
I think it is similar.

And they did it, boy did they do it. Shame they were not told when to stop.
So we had the god of war, then peace, what's next? God of war again, of course!!
He needs to react to wicked man. His nature is not wicked like man's. He did tell them when to stop. Not that the wicked sons of guns listened all that much.


Too rough = infanticide?
Because he is a bully.
The heathen were the ones that sacrificed children, it was an abomination to God. Most battles did not involve kids, far as I can tell. The time that a very wicked group had to be dealt with, and even the kids had to be killed is an exception, and one that God had to have a good reason for.

"There is an easy explanation for this using the theory of evolution. There is not an easy explanation using notions of design -- or rather, all the explanations end up saying that the designer happened to choose, out of all the possible patterns, the one that also makes it look like evolution happened. "
Taken from your source.
Well, yes, there is, when we consider the differences in the universe of the past.


Similarities are to be expected in a created world, but we don't genereally see similarities. We see homologies, and that is evidence for evolution by natural selection.

"
In biology, homology refers to the general and quite ancient observation of similarity of form seen in the biological world of animals or plants.[1] It is the name given to the anatomical correspondences between different species that biologists and paleontologists have noted and studied for centuries.
More specifically, in evolutionary biology, homology has come to mean any similarity between characters that is due to their shared ancestry. There are examples in different branches of biology. Anatomical structures that perform the same function in different biological species and evolved from the same structure in some ancestor species are homologous." wiki

So, what determines some similarity must be from a shared ancestor. precisely? You do not really know. Your claim is moot.

Yet all the evidence suggests that there was significantly less oxygen in the past, pre-cambrian period.
Well, that puts you to creation week. You don't really know much about the air there do you? Get serious. If some creation era rock, or something suggests less air, we need to ask for how long that may have been!!??? A day? An hour?? Etc.


The bible is not evidence, it is a book of faith.

It is not science evidence, because science is too limited, and small to matter much at all. It is evidence, of course. The hundreds of fulfilled prophesies, and witnessed miracles testify to that, and we have the record. No getting around it.

OK, 'young woman' being mistranslated as 'virgin'
You are dreaming, that is a lame argument, that can't stand the light of day. If you went to some young women of the day, and suggested she wasn't a virgin, the father would punch out your lights, or worse.
and Judas being portrayed as evil because he 'betrayed' Jesus as opposed to 'handing over' which is a more literal translation.
He had to kiss Him, to identify Him. He also was possessed of the devil, Satan. Judas was not the good guy there at all. Andrew Loyd Webber ought to hang his head in shame.

You may use that term, but it applies more when turned at yourself.
No, because man wrote the bible.
No. That you can't prove. That is a statement based on blindness to things of God, and assuming all there was at work was man. Nonsense.

No, we are the evidence of evolution. The bible is evidence of our evolution; we were once a superstitious people who needed to invent gods to fill the gaps in our knowledge.
Really.

Try to give evolution the glory all you like. It is merely a statement of faith. Faith in the devolved imaginings of the depraved mind of man.

Big bang fits the observations, therefore there is very little reason to doubt it.

False! It no more fits observations, than I could stuff twenty suns in a spark from a fire. The only mental machinations of man's mind it fit's, are faith based dreams of a same state past magic show that no one was here to see, and never happened.

It doesn't answer everything, so there is a good chance there is something else at work. Whether or not string theory fits the bill, only time will tell.
No, time will not tell. I am tired of being strung along.
And as for Obama, I have very little opinion because I don't know the guy. Tells fewer lies than Hillary, so he can't be all that bad.
I don't either, I simply distrust people that wear nominal religion as a show, and who are gung ho for killing babies.

"Sometimes objects around her would fly off the shelves, the rare phenomenon of psychokinesis known to parapsychologists,"
from your source.
Parapsychology might know supernatural phenomena, real science doesn't. Simple reason - no real scientise has ever seen it.
Funny how superstitious mumbo-jumbo attracts suprstitious people.....
So you claim that the men did not see what was written, and you do so because you feel like it. Fine.

There is no doubt in my mind that many of Jesus' teachings were good, honest and set a good example for people to follow. But they are a long way short of a god of peace and justice.
Guess His dying for man wasn't good enough for you.

No ideas of a democracy, which although not good is a hundred fold better than biblical ruling and occupation.
Says you. You prefer being ruled by the wicked, I don't.
Equality regardless of sex would have been nice as well.
They were equal, don't be fooled just because they were not allowed to kill their kids, or sleep around as they wished.

Abolishion of slavery, no he didn't go for that either.
Instead he introduces eternal hellfire and damnation, complete with wailing and gnashing of teeth.
He saw the end of the road for the choices of man. He did more than anyone ever did to try to help us be able to make the right choices.

Some peace that is, sounds like a bully all over again. But with fewer teeth.
The mob released a terrorist, rather than Him. He was also beaten, and marred more than any man. They smote and spit on Him, and you call Him the bully. He came down here to this humble state, and stinking PO body for the purpose of saving men. He put up with those bullies so that He could save as many as possible from hell.
 
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dad

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We have evidence for Stellar Evolution.
No, you don't. The only time we observed was the last several decades, to any great detail. How many stars evolved since then?

Therefore, it doesn't matter whether a past state existed or not; Stellar Evolution is there.
It is not there, save for some thousands of years. No significant stellar evolution happens in that time. What has happened, is not due to anything but this universe state, and creation. The rest in in your head.

Unfortunately for you, the Flood never happened. So we don't need a different universe state for something that never existed.
Yes, we do. Present laws are well known, and what can happen here. As for your story about no flood, you are not qualified to say.

Oh, sorry Dad. I didn't realize that it was wrong to teach children what MOST LIKELY HAPPENED at opposed to what most liekly DID NOT happen.
Yes, your silly selection and Godless preference of what is supposedly likely is of no value at all. Not unless backed up big time.

On one hand, we have what is being taught now, which is based on observation and educated guessing. And then there's what you would have us teach, which is just as bad if not worse, and is, at the very bottom, a product of GODDIDIT.
Educated guessing is not based on ignorance, as you admit that you are ignorant of the state of the past! Therefore you are not qualified to speak to the creation with the least authority, or to teach anyone your wet pond dreams.

Just as we have no proof, neither do you. This does not make either of our positions correct.

I know that science does not prove it for us, that is the point. Keep your old time religion to yourself, and don't push it on kids in school.

You mistake a lack of knowledge for a forfeit. It is not so. You lack the same knowledge, and have no more than we do. Therefore, we both lose. Nobody wins.
No, I lack nothing of the sort. I don't use science for knowledge beyond where science can know! My knowledge comes from other places.
And you have yet to tell us why we should think otherwise.
Whatever you think is one thing, teaching it as fact is another. Especially when you freely admit to not having a clue what you are talking about!!!
Keep paddling! If I'm going down, you're going down with me! We're in the same boat, after all.
No, you sunk your boat, and I ain't in the river of broken dreams with you. I am standing on something other than your sinking ship.

I suppose you're talking about the millions of people who have been Christians.
Suppose so.

It's too bad the majority have never seen god face-to-face. Too bad they never had any evidence, but a faith.
They also have a record. A record that includes many seeing Jesus face to face.

But wait! That doesn't matter, because they felt him there, in their hearts.
So did the followers of every other god. Have you ever wondered why the evidence for every single god in the world is the same? I can feel him in me, in my heart!
Spirits are all around. Watch out, they get in people.

What I mean to say is that many scientists know that there are unknowns,
Wow. They really know their stuff, then, huh? Hey, I think even normal people realize that much.
and that it is their job to continue the search. They understand that there is more to learn and to discover.
Don't we all? The smart ones among us will realize that to find something, if it is beyond science, we will need something else.

So, you have no clue, except a faith in the bible, yet you want to direct the educating of children away from Shiva. I see.
I have the same clues as anyone has. But science, as you admit, can't tell us of the future, and state of the past. Therefore it cannot be taught as the real creation story. If the kids are in a Hindu school, and a belief is needed to explain what science cannot, then I would think that belief would reflect the local majority. So, if I was to sneak in and try to convert your kid, it would be through the back door, in that case. Or maybe the radio, or TV, internet, etc.
 
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dad

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We have evidence for Stellar Evolution.
No, you don't. The only time we observed was the last several decades, to any great detail. How many stars evolved since then?

Therefore, it doesn't matter whether a past state existed or not; Stellar Evolution is there.
It is not there, save for some thousands of years. No significant stellar evolution happens in that time. What has happened, is not due to anything but this universe state, and creation. The rest in in your head.

Unfortunately for you, the Flood never happened. So we don't need a different universe state for something that never existed.
Yes, we do. Present laws are well known, and what can happen here. As for your story about no flood, you are not qualified to say.

Oh, sorry Dad. I didn't realize that it was wrong to teach children what MOST LIKELY HAPPENED at opposed to what most liekly DID NOT happen.
Yes, your silly selection and Godless preference of what is supposedly likely is of no value at all. Not unless backed up big time.

On one hand, we have what is being taught now, which is based on observation and educated guessing. And then there's what you would have us teach, which is just as bad if not worse, and is, at the very bottom, a product of GODDIDIT.
Educated guessing is not based on ignorance, as you admit that you are ignorant of the state of the past! Therefore you are not qualified to speak to the creation with the least authority, or to teach anyone your wet pond dreams.

Just as we have no proof, neither do you. This does not make either of our positions correct.

I know that science does not prove it for us, that is the point. Keep your old time religion to yourself, and don't push it on kids in school.

You mistake a lack of knowledge for a forfeit. It is not so. You lack the same knowledge, and have no more than we do. Therefore, we both lose. Nobody wins.
No, I lack nothing of the sort. I don't use science for knowledge beyond where science can know! My knowledge comes from other places.
And you have yet to tell us why we should think otherwise.
Whatever you think is one thing, teaching it as fact is another. Especially when you freely admit to not having a clue what you are talking about!!!
Keep paddling! If I'm going down, you're going down with me! We're in the same boat, after all.
No, you sunk your boat, and I ain't in the river of broken dreams with you. I am standing on something other than your sinking ship.

I suppose you're talking about the millions of people who have been Christians.
Suppose so.

It's too bad the majority have never seen god face-to-face. Too bad they never had any evidence, but a faith.
They also have a record. A record that includes many seeing Jesus face to face.

But wait! That doesn't matter, because they felt him there, in their hearts.
So did the followers of every other god. Have you ever wondered why the evidence for every single god in the world is the same? I can feel him in me, in my heart!
Spirits are all around. Watch out, they get in people.

What I mean to say is that many scientists know that there are unknowns,
Wow. They really know their stuff, then, huh? Hey, I think even normal people realize that much.
and that it is their job to continue the search. They understand that there is more to learn and to discover.
Don't we all? The smart ones among us will realize that to find something, if it is beyond science, we will need something else.

So, you have no clue, except a faith in the bible, yet you want to direct the educating of children away from Shiva. I see.
I have the same clues as anyone has. But science, as you admit, can't tell us of the future, and state of the past. Therefore it cannot be taught as the real creation story. If the kids are in a Hindu school, and a belief is needed to explain what science cannot, then I would think that belief would reflect the local majority. So, if I was to sneak in and try to convert your kid, it would be through the back door, in that case. Or maybe the radio, or TV, internet, etc.
 
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Danyc

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I'm not even going to waste my time replying to that post; everything I read there made me nauseous.



This is the bottom-line; we can't get any farther than this:

Dad wants evolution and Big Bang Theory and such out of schools.

His reasoning for this is because it is based on an assumption. I agree, an assumption. Unfortunately it is an assumption that we MUST use. But, I digress.

His reasoning for this is that they are based on an assumption.

Now I'm speaking to Dad:

I know what you want in place of evolution and Big Bang Theory: The Bible.

So, would it really be any improvement?

Let me lay out for you what happens when you take evolution out of schools:

Every benefit that evolutionary theory has given us will be wiped away once the generation with knowledge about it dies off. Our children will not know about it, and they can do nothing.

From TalkOrigins:

  1. Evolutionary theory has been put to practical use in several areas (Futuyma 1995; Bull and Wichman 2001). For example:
    • Bioinformatics, a multi-billion-dollar industry, consists largely of the comparison of genetic sequences. Descent with modification is one of its most basic assumptions.
    • Diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture (Bull and Wichman 2001).
    • Evolutionary theory is used to manage fisheries for greater yields (Conover and Munch 2002).
    • Artificial selection has been used since prehistory, but it has become much more efficient with the addition of quantitative trait locus mapping.
    • Knowledge of the evolution of parasite virulence in human populations can help guide public health policy (Galvani 2003).
    • Sex allocation theory, based on evolution theory, was used to predict conditions under which the highly endangered kakapo bird would produce more female offspring, which retrieved it from the brink of extinction (Sutherland 2002).
    Evolutionary theory is being applied to and has potential applications in may other areas, from evaluating the threats of genetically modified crops to human psychology. Additional applications are sure to come.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA215.html


Now, imagine a situation where the Bible is taught instead.

The first question is, why the Bible? Why not the Quran, or any other religion? What makes Christianity so special? Remember that Christianity cannot be proven. And no, the experiences of people in the Bible does not prove anything. Circular logic: How do you know God exists? The Bible says so. How do you know the Bible is right? It was inspired by God.
Doesn't work, try again.

The Bible has the same amount of proof as an assumption for a same state universe does: none. THE BIBLE HAS NO PROOF.



So what are we now to do?

We have a theory with no proof on one side, and a theory with no proof on the other.

Which to choose?

Well, Occam's Razor dictates the one we are to choose. That is, evolution.

That is why evolution is taught.

Because when the two are placed side-by-side, there is no proof for either. However, one is based on faith, and one is based on observation.

The majority of us would rather go for observation.




Jeez, I'm getting closer and closer to becoming an atheist everyday on this site. Very ironic.
 
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NailsII

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You assume that the growth rate was possible due to genes. I don't. I figure maybe something more like atomic level changes, and a different light.
As expected. you have no evidence to support you, all the evidence contradicts you. So you make something up and try to use scientific sounding words to add weight to your claim.
It still means nothing, you are filling in the gaps in biblical logic with your own assumptions.
No, all that was needed is a seed. Besides, that was not Noah's job. God must have taken care of that department.
Again, you don't know therefore goddidit.
The gaps are in your head.
See your previous two replies. you have the problem of gaps, not I.
The continental separation, ice age, and a lot of other things apparently happened after the flood. You have not known what to look for. Those that look for something at the 4500 year level, according to man's reckoning of time have been on a wild goose chase.
I know.
Really? Can you show me some ice evidence near the equator? How about even Mexico, or Israel?
Dropstones are your answer, I will let you google it for your own pleasure.
Around 600 million years ago, before the first multi-cellular organism are believed to have appeared, the entire planet was covered with ice - the so-called snowball earth theory.
There is a brief discussion of it here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/snowballearth_transcript.shtml
More detail and evidence of drop stones and glacial activity in southern africa can be found here:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=26445
Basically, drop stones are solid material carried by glacial activity. They are dropped as the glacier melts and end up in some rather bizarre places.
For example, here on the East coast of UK I can see drop stones from scandinavia on my local beach, and every continent has them.
In your head.
On the contrary, you are filling page after page with gap-filling nonsense in order to validate your position. This entire thread is a classic example.
The state you can't evidence by science. The one that you know squat about. The one where most of this stuff happened.
How convenient. You have no evidence, all the evidence contradicts you so you use the idea of an altered state to fill your gaps. But all it does is fills your boots with concrete.
Not all lizards were changed from some former higher state of creature. If you had to lick dust it might hit you harder than it bothers an iguana.
But I don't think you know very much about lizards, do you?
Let me enlighten you.
The fossil record tells us that snakes lost ltheir imbs around 100 - 95 mya as they began living underground; presumably the limbs were a hinderance as they buried. Around 50mya they moved back on the surface of the earth and have thrived on the small mammals that have colonised most of the planet.
If you think it is a one-off caused by god to be limbless then think again - skinks are evolving reduced limbs - Typhlosaurus are limbless, Neoseps have vastly reduced limbs with only one font and two back toes.
Or do you have another bilical curse up your sleeve to explain that one away?
It means that they are exceptional. Now, how many go through many pregnancies the same breezy way? Not a lot.
Irrelevant how many, the fact that it happens means they are not cursed - or the story in Genesis is a lie, a myth.
And i know which I think is true.
Any culture that thinks they are not sinners, if such a thing exists, do not get along fine at all.
Like the USA right now - over half believe in genesis but it is amongst the most lawless countries on earth.
Would it suprise you to find morals and laws in the animal kingdom, without the need for a God?
King cobras for example are highly venemous, and even though they eat other snakes they do not venomate each other in fights over territory or females - they merely wrestle.
Piece of cake. Nothing dates Egypt, of any consequence, but radioactive decay so called dating. That means, of course, PO past state assumption dating, which is worthless.
What, you don't think they knew how long a year was and recorded their own history?
I think Abraham was only several hundred years after the flood, or some such. You would need to get to early Egypt, or Sumer, to beat that.
At which time Egypt was flourishing, and building an empire - in only enough time to have reproduced around 100 generations by your reasoning.
It grows somewhere else. I hear, for example, that there are more bible believing Christians in China, than in the US. South America is going great guns with all sorts of faith springing up. Etc. But, I would think that the people that forsake faith, if they had it, are the ones that suffer. Pretty soon, they will have to get down and dirty, and outright worship the devil anyhow. So, faith will be here in one form or another.
Africa and south america are indeed flourishing with christianity, let's hope that the catholic church doesn't let them all die of HIV with its sensless anti-condom message.
But as usual, developed nations are turning their back on god - that leaves us with only a few backwards-thinking nations to worry about - like Iran and Pakistan. Because Christianity with its finger on the big button is bad enough, Fundamental Islam is an unbearable option.
 
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NailsII

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You assume that the growth rate was possible due to genes. I don't. I figure maybe something more like atomic level changes, and a different light.
As expected. you have no evidence to support you, all the evidence contradicts you. So you make something up and try to use scientific sounding words to add weight to your claim.
It still means nothing, you are filling in the gaps in biblical logic with your own assumptions.
No, all that was needed is a seed. Besides, that was not Noah's job. God must have taken care of that department.
Again, you don't know therefore goddidit.
The gaps are in your head.
See your previous two replies. you have the problem of gaps, not I.
The continental separation, ice age, and a lot of other things apparently happened after the flood. You have not known what to look for. Those that look for something at the 4500 year level, according to man's reckoning of time have been on a wild goose chase.
Can you provide a biblical record of an ice-age type event, or have you just made this up?
Continental seperation requires more than 6,000 years of hhistory - that is whay off the coast I live in (temperate UK) we find fossils of plesiasaurs, which lived in tropical areas.
Really? Can you show me some ice evidence near the equator? How about even Mexico, or Israel?
Dropstones are your answer, I will let you google it for your own pleasure.
Around 600 million years ago, before the first multi-cellular organism are believed to have appeared, the entire planet was covered with ice - the so-called snowball earth theory.
There is a brief discussion of it here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/snowballearth_transcript.shtml
More detail and evidence of drop stones and glacial activity in southern africa can be found here:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=26445
Basically, drop stones are solid material carried by glacial activity. They are dropped as the glacier melts and end up in some rather bizarre places.
For example, here on the East coast of UK I can see drop stones from scandinavia on my local beach, and every continent has them.
In your head.
On the contrary, you are filling page after page with gap-filling nonsense in order to validate your position. This entire thread is a classic example.
The state you can't evidence by science. The one that you know squat about. The one where most of this stuff happened.
How convenient. You have no evidence, all the evidence contradicts you so you use the idea of an altered state to fill your gaps. But all it does is fills your boots with concrete.
Not all lizards were changed from some former higher state of creature. If you had to lick dust it might hit you harder than it bothers an iguana.
But I don't think you know very much about lizards, do you?
Let me enlighten you.
The fossil record tells us that snakes lost ltheir imbs around 100 - 95 mya as they began living underground; presumably the limbs were a hinderance as they buried. Around 50mya they moved back on the surface of the earth and have thrived on the small mammals that have colonised most of the planet.
If you think it is a one-off caused by god to be limbless then think again - skinks are evolving reduced limbs - Typhlosaurus are limbless, Neoseps have vastly reduced limbs with only one font and two back toes.
Or do you have another bilical curse up your sleeve to explain that one away?
It means that they are exceptional. Now, how many go through many pregnancies the same breezy way? Not a lot.
Irrelevant how many, the fact that it happens means they are not cursed - or the story in Genesis is a lie, a myth.
And i know which I think is true.
Any culture that thinks they are not sinners, if such a thing exists, do not get along fine at all.
Like the USA right now - over half believe in genesis but it is amongst the most lawless countries on earth.
Would it suprise you to find morals and laws in the animal kingdom, without the need for a God?
King cobras for example are highly venemous, and even though they eat other snakes they do not venomate each other in fights over territory or females - they merely wrestle.
Piece of cake. Nothing dates Egypt, of any consequence, but radioactive decay so called dating. That means, of course, PO past state assumption dating, which is worthless.
What, you don't think they knew how long a year was and recorded their own history?
I think Abraham was only several hundred years after the flood, or some such. You would need to get to early Egypt, or Sumer, to beat that.
At which time Egypt was flourishing, and building an empire - in only enough time to have reproduced around 100 generations by your reasoning.
It grows somewhere else. I hear, for example, that there are more bible believing Christians in China, than in the US. South America is going great guns with all sorts of faith springing up. Etc. But, I would think that the people that forsake faith, if they had it, are the ones that suffer. Pretty soon, they will have to get down and dirty, and outright worship the devil anyhow. So, faith will be here in one form or another.
Africa and south america are indeed flourishing with christianity, let's hope that the catholic church doesn't let them all die of HIV with its sensless anti-condom message.
But as usual, developed nations are turning their back on god - that leaves us with only a few backwards-thinking nations to worry about - like Iran and Pakistan. Because Christianity with its finger on the big button is bad enough, Fundamental Islam is an unbearable option.
 
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NailsII

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Peoples opinion of the bible reflect more where they are at, than on the bible.
Read my signiture again, I think you will find it more appropriate.
No need, it is well known, how they really get around. How they go. And that is on all fours, of course. All four wings. When they putter around the ground, they use the legs.
On all fours - meaning legs. I fail to see how the term can be used to describe flying.
Don't blame it on America. Your myth in the schools in your country is all you need to look at.
I didn't blame America, you blamed the schools and i pointed to America. Science is not a myth by the way.
Well, I don't know, it sounds like she may have gotten pretty close to some men in Egypt, and places. The pair lied, and said she was just Abe's sister.
The point was that God promised Abraham a son. Sarah taking another husband would not solve that at all. In fact, I think it would have made her an adulteress.
The bible I read said that Abraham lied. Sarah should not be punished for his lies, but by being childless she was. The story typifies backwards stone-age thinkingthat when a couple are childless, the woman is at fault.
She could have slept with anyone she wanted, he did - the idea that she suggested it is neither here nor there.
After all, god could have given her a child - and he did. So why mess about and cause so much pain and heartache in the meantime?
Oh yeah, silly me. God of war and pain. No-one gets out without a little psychological torture - not moses, not abraham (or his son).
Not even Job, a model citizen.
Your god is a bully.
Well, I don't see any reason they should have disobeyed God, and not let the woman rest in that time.
I never really considered that some people actually think some choice is involved there. But I'll leave that one.
The act itself is irrelevant for me, I only wonder why god had to interfere in the private lives of individuals - a bit strange for a non-interventionist god who created the universe to work all by itself.
 
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NailsII

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I think it is similar.
Slavery and paying taxes?
Why not work for the church, I hear they don't pay tax on anything.
He needs to react to wicked man. His nature is not wicked like man's. He did tell them when to stop. Not that the wicked sons of guns listened all that much.
Moses told them to get back out and slaughter more, on command of god. There is never a need to slaughter infants, I'm suprised it doesn't tug at your heart strings a little - given your position on abortion anyway.
The heathen were the ones that sacrificed children, it was an abomination to God. Most battles did not involve kids, far as I can tell. The time that a very wicked group had to be dealt with, and even the kids had to be killed is an exception, and one that God had to have a good reason for.
The heathens were led by moses under instruction from your god, the god of the desert, god of war.
Well, yes, there is, when we consider the differences in the universe of the past.
Meaningless.
In biology, homology refers to the general and quite ancient observation of similarity of form seen in the biological world of animals or plants.[1] It is the name given to the anatomical correspondences between different species that biologists and paleontologists have noted and studied for centuries.
More specifically, in evolutionary biology, homology has come to mean any similarity between characters that is due to their shared ancestry. There are examples in different branches of biology. Anatomical structures that perform the same function in different biological species and evolved from the same structure in some ancestor species are homologous." wiki
So, what determines some similarity must be from a shared ancestor. precisely? You do not really know. Your claim is moot.
Not similarity, homology. There is a subtle difference. Look at the DNA, it can be homologous (similar if you like) between species but not identical. But the product, again homologous but not identical, can be interchanged between distantly related species.
Examples: Hox genes, cytochrome c genes, sonic hedehog genes to name but three. As they are differences, this can be nailed down to neutral mutation as predicted by Darwinian evolution. It is evidence against creationism, unless god created everything to look like it had evolved - and then we can add god of lies to his name.
Well, that puts you to creation week. You don't really know much about the air there do you? Get serious. If some creation era rock, or something suggests less air, we need to ask for how long that may have been!!??? A day? An hour?? Etc.
Not less air, less oxygen.
It is not science evidence, because science is too limited, and small to matter much at all. It is evidence, of course. The hundreds of fulfilled prophesies, and witnessed miracles testify to that, and we have the record. No getting around it.
Yawn. Wake me when you've finished ranting.
You are dreaming, that is a lame argument, that can't stand the light of day. If you went to some young women of the day, and suggested she wasn't a virgin, the father would punch out your lights, or worse.
Yet the bilbical scholars see fit to change words when they translate.
He had to kiss Him, to identify Him. He also was possessed of the devil, Satan. Judas was not the good guy there at all. Andrew Loyd Webber ought to hang his head in shame.
Funny how the idea doesn't date back to the beginning of Christianity, and only became popular in the later years. Look it up, the earliest manuscripts say handed over. Fact.
No. That you can't prove. That is a statement based on blindness to things of God, and assuming all there was at work was man. Nonsense.
Man wrote the bible - fact. Get over it.
Try to give evolution the glory all you like. It is merely a statement of faith. Faith in the devolved imaginings of the depraved mind of man.
no, faith is belief without or in spite of evidence. Try again.
False! It no more fits observations, than I could stuff twenty suns in a spark from a fire. The only mental machinations of man's mind it fit's, are faith based dreams of a same state past magic show that no one was here to see, and never happened.
I think you need to brush up on your physics a little.
No, time will not tell. I am tired of being strung along.
ha ha.
I don't either, I simply distrust people that wear nominal religion as a show, and who are gung ho for killing babies.
But if he's an atheist, he's got a better chance of getting lynched than elected.
So you claim that the men did not see what was written, and you do so because you feel like it. Fine.
No, i am claiming that no scientists were called, only the paranormal loonies who would be begging for something like this.
Guess His dying for man wasn't good enough for you.
How is that anything to do with peace and justice?
Says you. You prefer being ruled by the wicked, I don't.
At least we choose our 'rulers', which is more than can be said for biblical times.
They were equal, don't be fooled just because they were not allowed to kill their kids, or sleep around as they wished.
Or talk in church, or teach......
He saw the end of the road for the choices of man. He did more than anyone ever did to try to help us be able to make the right choices.
But he didn't make the world a better or more peaceful place, did he?
The mob released a terrorist, rather than Him. He was also beaten, and marred more than any man. They smote and spit on Him, and you call Him the bully. He came down here to this humble state, and stinking PO body for the purpose of saving men. He put up with those bullies so that He could save as many as possible from hell.
not even worth a reply.
 
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NailsII

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I think it is similar.
Slavery and paying taxes?
Why not work for the church, I hear they don't pay tax on anything.
He needs to react to wicked man. His nature is not wicked like man's. He did tell them when to stop. Not that the wicked sons of guns listened all that much.
Moses told them to get back out and slaughter more, on command of god. There is never a need to slaughter infants, I'm suprised it doesn't tug at your heart strings a little - given your position on abortion anyway.
The heathen were the ones that sacrificed children, it was an abomination to God. Most battles did not involve kids, far as I can tell. The time that a very wicked group had to be dealt with, and even the kids had to be killed is an exception, and one that God had to have a good reason for.
The heathens were led by moses under instruction from your god, the god of the desert, god of war.
Well, yes, there is, when we consider the differences in the universe of the past.
Meaningless.
In biology, homology refers to the general and quite ancient observation of similarity of form seen in the biological world of animals or plants.[1] It is the name given to the anatomical correspondences between different species that biologists and paleontologists have noted and studied for centuries.
More specifically, in evolutionary biology, homology has come to mean any similarity between characters that is due to their shared ancestry. There are examples in different branches of biology. Anatomical structures that perform the same function in different biological species and evolved from the same structure in some ancestor species are homologous." wiki
So, what determines some similarity must be from a shared ancestor. precisely? You do not really know. Your claim is moot.
Not similarity, homology. There is a subtle difference. Look at the DNA, it can be homologous (similar if you like) between species but not identical. But the product, again homologous but not identical, can be interchanged between distantly related species.
Examples: Hox genes, cytochrome c genes, sonic hedehog genes to name but three. As they are differences, this can be nailed down to neutral mutation as predicted by Darwinian evolution. It is evidence against creationism, unless god created everything to look like it had evolved - and then we can add god of lies to his name.
Well, that puts you to creation week. You don't really know much about the air there do you? Get serious. If some creation era rock, or something suggests less air, we need to ask for how long that may have been!!??? A day? An hour?? Etc.
Not less air, less oxygen.
It is not science evidence, because science is too limited, and small to matter much at all. It is evidence, of course. The hundreds of fulfilled prophesies, and witnessed miracles testify to that, and we have the record. No getting around it.
Yawn. Wake me when you've finished ranting.
You are dreaming, that is a lame argument, that can't stand the light of day. If you went to some young women of the day, and suggested she wasn't a virgin, the father would punch out your lights, or worse.
Yet the bilbical scholars see fit to change words when they translate.
He had to kiss Him, to identify Him. He also was possessed of the devil, Satan. Judas was not the good guy there at all. Andrew Loyd Webber ought to hang his head in shame.
Funny how the idea doesn't date back to the beginning of Christianity, and only became popular in the later years. Look it up, the earliest manuscripts say handed over. Fact.
No. That you can't prove. That is a statement based on blindness to things of God, and assuming all there was at work was man. Nonsense.
Man wrote the bible - fact. Get over it.
Try to give evolution the glory all you like. It is merely a statement of faith. Faith in the devolved imaginings of the depraved mind of man.
no, faith is belief without or in spite of evidence. Try again.
False! It no more fits observations, than I could stuff twenty suns in a spark from a fire. The only mental machinations of man's mind it fit's, are faith based dreams of a same state past magic show that no one was here to see, and never happened.
I think you need to brush up on your physics a little.
No, time will not tell. I am tired of being strung along.
ha ha.
I don't either, I simply distrust people that wear nominal religion as a show, and who are gung ho for killing babies.
But if he's an atheist, he's got a better chance of getting lynched than elected.
So you claim that the men did not see what was written, and you do so because you feel like it. Fine.
No, i am claiming that no scientists were called, only the paranormal loonies who would be begging for something like this.
Guess His dying for man wasn't good enough for you.
How is that anything to do with peace and justice?
Says you. You prefer being ruled by the wicked, I don't.
At least we choose our 'rulers', which is more than can be said for biblical times.
They were equal, don't be fooled just because they were not allowed to kill their kids, or sleep around as they wished.
Or talk in church, or teach......
He saw the end of the road for the choices of man. He did more than anyone ever did to try to help us be able to make the right choices.
But he didn't make the world a better or more peaceful place, did he?
The mob released a terrorist, rather than Him. He was also beaten, and marred more than any man. They smote and spit on Him, and you call Him the bully. He came down here to this humble state, and stinking PO body for the purpose of saving men. He put up with those bullies so that He could save as many as possible from hell.
not even worth a reply.
 
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