Question about 1 Samuel 15

[gellegbs]

I am currently studying 1st and 2nd Samuel, I am having a hard time with this chapter. Why would God ask Saul to kill innocent children? I know that their parents were not God's chosen people (Jewish) but still, I can not understand this. Can someone shed the light on this scripture a little more for me?

 

[daviddcbud]

Keep asking those type of questions, those are the type of things that brought me to my current state of disbelief and rejection of the Bible

 

[BrotherDave]

Well, the bible is the sword of the spirit, the word of God and if it does not correct a person it will cut him and cause him to turn from it. It has to be approached humbly and prayfully recognizing that the reader does not know better then its author. Yes, it is good to ask these types of questions since this is how we learn and verify our understanding. But we must be willing to challenge our beliefs and diligently seek out a correct understanding that harmonizes with the entire bible.

This scripture is a great example of how our ways are not God’s. Even if we believe we are doing something “good” if it is not according to how God instructs us then we are not doing his will. We are not following him (I Sam15:11) and actually doing evil in His sight (v19). This is what Saul did by sparing Agag and the “best” of the sheep and oxen. His action did not align with God’s command in verse 3.

In answer to your question. This passage also helps us understand that as the Bible says there are non-righteous (Rom 3:10), we are all gone astray (Ecc 7:20) and are wicked from the womb (Ps 58:3). This is why God, by His mercy and grace (Eph 2:8) had to chose those He intended to save (Eph 1:4-13) and why we cannot do anything to contribute to our salvation. Salvation is 100% in Gods hands and He is perfectly just.

No one in Amalek was chosen to be saved. Children even new born infants are sinful. Just like only Noah and his family was spared during the flood. Like in Sodom and Gomorrah, only Lot and his children were saved from the destruction (even his wife was destroyed). Like one thief was saved on the cross or like Jacob was loved by God but Esau was not (Ro 9:13). The fact is that God hates sin and the sinner (Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5), and we are all guilty of sin from the womb.

We have to let God be true (Rom 3:4). This is why we have to constantly test our ways to make sure we are on a correct path lighted by the gospel and not by our sin tainted mind and compassionate feelings. The bible is Gods Word, His law, the sword of the Spirit. We have to prayfully study it and pray God to grant us correct understanding and the strength to do His will. This is particularly important today as there is an explosion of false teachings in the world as God warned in the Bible (Matt 24). If we do not do exactly as God commands then we are doing evil in his sight just as Saul did. There is only one true gospel (Gal 1:9, Eph 4:14) are we going to submit to it no matter how much we think it just does not seem right or are we just going to tweak it a little so it is more agreeable with us, which we are also warned about in the Bible (2 Tim 4:3). We live in a sin cursed world and the Gospel, the bible, which is of God and not of this world, should cause us to challenge our beliefs and result in struggles through which God will correct us if it be His will to do so.

The bible (or Gods commands) is very hard to succumb to. After all how can a baby be guilty of sin? How can judgement start in the house of God (I Peter 4:17) and why will Christ turn away so many that believed they were doing good works (Matt 7:23, Matt 25:41, Luke 13:27, Matt 7:13). But it is Gods word (John 1:14). Christ is the loving, faithful savior of the elect and also the perfect judge. Are we going to listen and do what He commands or are we going to do what we think are better (Prov 21:2) like Saul, Jonah, David, Moses... Left up to us to choose righteousness we will fail every time. Our compassion, anger and pride will get in the way. Thank God for his mercy and for giving us His Word for without it we would remain a prisoner to our wicked hearts (Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23, Is 64:6, I Thess 2:4).

This is why it so important to be in the environment in which God saves which is under the hearing of His Word (Romans 10:17 ). Even babies, deaf or mentally challenged people need to be in that environment. Thankfully salvation does not require understanding. That will follow salvation.

 

[dcyates]

Keep asking those type of questions, those are the type of things that brought me to my current state of disbelief and rejection of the Bible

I'm genuinely sorry that you've arrived at this state, and believe this decision of yours to be based on an actual miscontrual of the text. But be that as it may, you should probably then begin identifying yourself as either a non-believing agnostic or atheist, rather than a baptist.

 

[JimB]

I am currently studying 1st and 2nd Samuel, I am having a hard time with this chapter. Why would God ask Saul to kill innocent children? I know that their parents were not God's chosen people (Jewish) but still, I can not understand this. Can someone shed the light on this scripture a little more for me?

I have found no satisfactory answer for this, but I know there is one because I have, after 44 years of serving Him, come to the unwavering conclusion that I can trust Him to do what is right. He has not disappointed me yet. Trust kicks in when answers fail.

~Jim

You have to risk going too far to learn how far you can go.​

 

[mont974x4]

God is completely righteous and just. What this means is that although He is longsuffering (look how long He gives people to repent and come to Him) but He will also hold people accountable. When looking at passages where God called for the annihilation of whole peoples we need to look at the event in context. What was going on? Were those people a danger to His children? Follow the timeline and see what becomes of the people that got spared through the disobedience of Saul and others. Look at how those peoples later impacted His people.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I am currently studying 1st and 2nd Samuel, I am having a hard time with this chapter. Why would God ask Saul to kill innocent children? I know that their parents were not God's chosen people (Jewish) but still, I can not understand this. Can someone shed the light on this scripture a little more for me?

First your question has a presupposition that someone somewhere is innocent (in this case the children) . . . when the Scriptures say that

Rom 3:10
as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
NASU


But this is the question that arose that I thought about. Would it have been more merciful for God to have allowed those children the grow up into paganism and sinners responsible for their actions . . . lived a long life (whether good or bad) died . . . and then never having had the chance to been in relationship with God . . . suffered in Hell for eternity . . . or . . . allowed their physical bodies to be killed . . . and spared them from a life of sin unto damnation and allowed them to be with Him for eternity?

This brings the whole age of accountablility thing into question . . . BUT the scenario is interesting because it appeals to the sovereignty and wisdom and mercy of God.

 

[CShephard53]

I am currently studying 1st and 2nd Samuel, I am having a hard time with this chapter. Why would God ask Saul to kill innocent children? I know that their parents were not God's chosen people (Jewish) but still, I can not understand this. Can someone shed the light on this scripture a little more for me?

Yeah, I've got an answer. Sin deserves death. It is perfectly just for God to kill sinners. No, the command is 'Do not murder', not do not kill.
As far as the age of accountability goes, there's nothing in the Bible to indicate that there is one. Romans 3 doesn't leave kids out of the 'all fall short', either.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yeah, I've got an answer. Sin deserves death. It is perfectly just for God to kill sinners. No, the command is 'Do not murder', not do not kill.
As far as the age of accountability goes, there's nothing in the Bible to indicate that there is one. Romans 3 doesn't leave kids out of the 'all fall short', either.

I agree . . . but there are some hints at an age of accountability . . . though nothing explicit.

 

[mont974x4]

Remember in the OTwe have the accounts of the kings and they are judged as either doing evil or doing what is right in the sight of God. If I recall correctly the youngest we see is 8 years old, one of each case (good and bad).

 

[CShephard53]

I agree . . . but there are some hints at an age of accountability . . . though nothing explicit.

David doesn't count, he was talking about death. Eternal life isn't ever alluded to. Unless you've got other ones.

 

[mont974x4]

David did say he would see his son again. I would say it's safe to say that God's grace and mercy covers those who are unable to make the decision to accept (or reject) Christ.

 

[CShephard53]

David did say he would see his son again. I would say it's safe to say that God's grace and mercy covers those who are unable to make the decision to accept (or reject) Christ.

No, David said 'I will go to him, but he will not return to me'. Doesn't mention seeing in there anywhere.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

David doesn't count, he was talking about death. Eternal life isn't ever alluded to. Unless you've got other ones.

You have to construe a derived systematic theology about it.

We have God's mercy on Ninevah on those who did not know their right from left hands (most see these as children) . . . and Jesus' comment as becoming like a little child to see the kingdom of God.

Then there is the appeal to the justice and mercy of God . . . hardly seems right to hold someone culpable who doesn't quite know right fromm wrong.

Then there is also the rabbinic tradition . . . something that would have been well known to the 1st Cent Jew . . . and they DO have an articulated concept of an age of accountability (if I recall correctly).

 

[mont974x4]

No, David said 'I will go to him, but he will not return to me'. Doesn't mention seeing in there anywhere.

What? You don't think he'd see his son when he went to him? Where do you suppose he was going to meet him again?

 

[CShephard53]

What? You don't think he'd see his son when he went to him? Where do you suppose he was going to meet him again?

In death, as context dictates. They will both be dead, together. David will go to his son, David will die. But David's son will not come back to life.

 

[mont974x4]

In death, as context dictates. They will both be dead, together. David will go to his son, David will die. But David's son will not come back to life.

Is it safe to guess that you're an anihilationist? That you don't beleive in any afterlife?

 

[CShephard53]

You have to construe a derived systematic theology about it.

We have God's mercy on Ninevah on those who did not know their right from left hands (most see these as children) . . . and Jesus' comment as becoming like a little child to see the kingdom of God.

Then there is the appeal to the justice and mercy of God . . . hardly seems right to hold someone culpable who doesn't quite know right fromm wrong.

Then there is also the rabbinic tradition . . . something that would have been well known to the 1st Cent Jew . . . and they DO have an articulated concept of an age of accountability (if I recall correctly).

That does not mean it's proven beyond reasonable doubt. That only means it's tradition, and that there's argument based on an imbalance of God's character and subjecting God to our ideas. While God is merciful, He is also just.

 

[CShephard53]

Is it safe to guess that you're an anihilationist? That you don't beleive in any afterlife?

You haven't been around CA long have you? No, I'm not an annilationwhateveryoucalledit. Of course there's eternal life. But there is nothing in that passage to indicate it's talking about eternal life or death. It's talking about a physical death.

 

[mont974x4]

We don't meet anyone in the ground.