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creationists and their double-standard

Inan3

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Actually Inan, we require SOMETHING from the Creationists. They are so sorely lacking in even basic science literacy anything like a fact supported by evidence or data untainted by faulty analysis would be a great boon.

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Well it only appears that way to you because you have no science background. Maybe if you understood science just a bit better you'd be able to see that scientists would gladly engage you in scientific discussions. But the Creationists on this board are so woefully behind on fundamental science literacy, let alone topics like abiogenesis and the biochemistry incumbent on that, that we end up having to spend all our time giving them the 1st grader version of it. (Why do you think evolution debates always wind up discussing abiogenesis which technically isn't even an evolution topic!)

Learning is a good thing, but because so few Creationists actually seem capable of learning or seem so very resistant to learning, it's frustrating.


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But likely Creationists will do what creationists on this board always do and that is simply ignore it. Mainly because they don't understand it.

Take the issue of homochirality of biologically active compounds as has been trotted out numerous times on this board (I'll repost the link: here for the zillionth time).

Funny how that is really interesting and germane to abiogenesis, but I've never seen a Creationist on this board yet who ever commented on it once it was posted.

That's probably because a relatively straightforward bit of science simply goes over their heads.

That's not a bad thing. They know things I couldn't start to understand. But I don't expect them to distill the massive amount of information they have available down to one little sentence.

It would necessarily be oversimplified and nearly useless.

That's what MoonLancer is getting at. You want a simple 1st grader type answer and it ain't gonna be easy. You think that because you can disagree with the science that that means you somehow understand the science. But Creationists and YEC simply, usually, don't.

If they do, and if you are a gung-ho science geek, please respond in ways that reassure us that you know about what you seem to speak against.



No, in reality you would be surprised at how we don't have to struggle to defend the ToE. It simply is an accepted fact, as accepted and factual as just about any theory is. It's a good strong theory and a good strong data set.

YOU and the other Creationists who don't understand it are the only ones people have to "struggle against" and thankfully most of you don't have anything to do with professional science. You are, for lack of a more kind word, meaningless to science. What does scare us is that you want to forcefeed your religion as science to children, or demand that valid science not be taught because you don't understand it and it makes you feel "icky" or makes you afraid your God is in danger.

Neither of which is remotely valid. Most Christians are evolution-friendly anyway.

Again, Creationists are like screaming children. Just one in a crowded room sounds really loud and annoying but in fact really is just a screaming child who doesn't understand all the important stuff going on around them.


You know TMT I read the first two quotes of this post and I decided that I would not read the rest. I know that you have a wealth of knowledge which I'd prefer to read about. AND whereas, I, also, know you have a nicer side, I'm just going to forego the negative creationists bashing to maintain my high opinion of you .
 
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Nathan45

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You know TMT I read the first two quotes of this post and I decided that I would not read the rest. I know that you have a wealth of knowledge which I'd prefer to read about. AND whereas, I, also, know you have a nicer side, I'm just going to forego the negative creationists bashing to maintain my high opinion of you .
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" - Galatians 4:16.
 
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Inan3

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and if you're wondering one of the many ways that scientists can calculate the age of the earth, please see my responses in this thread.

http://foru.ms/t6300091-how-old-is-the-earth-really.html
...

as for the current thread, all i see are a bunch of creationists shouting down a fifteen-year-old ( not to knock you, gamespotter, but this is amusing to watch. ) for evidence of evolution.

and If you really want to know about the evidence for evolution, please, please, go to this website and read it:

www.talkorigins.com/


N45, nice to meet you. Cool character! Thanks for the info, but so that you will know I've been to talk origins but all I see there is a bunch of evolutionists shouting down creationists and it gets quite tiring. I'm really looking for intelligent people who can present their evidence without insult or injury. That would be nice.
 
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Nathan45

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N45, nice to meet you. Cool character! Thanks for the info, but so that you will know I've been to talk origins but all I see there is a bunch of evolutionists shouting down creationists and it gets quite tiring. I'm really looking for intelligent people who can present their evidence without insult or injury. That would be nice.


believe me, it's more frustrating for us evolutionists. If we weren't frustrated, we wouldn't come off as so angry.

But, please, do, educate yourself on this issue.
 
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gamespotter10

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N45, nice to meet you. Cool character! Thanks for the info, but so that you will know I've been to talk origins but all I see there is a bunch of evolutionists shouting down creationists and it gets quite tiring. I'm really looking for intelligent people who can present their evidence without insult or injury. That would be nice.
talkorigins does have evidence for evolution.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
 
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Nathan45

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N45, nice to meet you. Cool character! Thanks for the info, but so that you will know I've been to talk origins but all I see there is a bunch of evolutionists shouting down creationists and it gets quite tiring. I'm really looking for intelligent people who can present their evidence without insult or injury. That would be nice.
another thing, if you think the evidence presented at Talk Origins is "just shouting down creationism", well, by all means, don't bother trying to understand it, keep your head firmly planted in the sand.
 
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Nathan45

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And he said, ‘Go and say to this people:
“Keep listening, but do not comprehend;
keep looking, but do not understand.”
Make the mind of this people dull,
and stop their ears,
and shut their eyes,
so that they may not look with their eyes,
and listen with their ears,
and comprehend with their minds,
and turn and be healed.’
 
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MoonLancer

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Sorry that's not an acceptable answer. You require more from creationists so by your own standards that's not good enough.
Really, I do? I just ask for something testable or falsifiable. Explain to me why This cant be done?

No I don't. There has been plenty of evidence given but you don't want to accept it. You have your minds all made up and set. The only double standard I have seen is from your side of the debate.
I had a thread while ago. were was this evidence?

If there are books of evidence as you say and you can't take one piece of that evidence and use it to show evidence for evolution than I doubt that any of it can be put together. It only shows that you have a bunch of data that can only be tied together by surmising this and assuming that. You use the tales of evolution to do this. This is why you struggle so much to protect the ToE because if it is not there you don't know how to present the data. It's a good story but not complete enough for evidence.
your right, theirs too much evidence, and their are many parts.

Am willing to share, if you are willing to listen. If your not willing to listen, theirs no point in me expending energy trying to teach you the basics of science so you can understand evolution.
 
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Shemjaza

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But because it's you LM, I'm going to give it a try. I'd like to start by asking, "what makes you believe in evolution?" I would ask that you, please, don't say something like the "mounds or books of evidence". While I'm not slamming those who have, I just need more.

For me the best evidence to convince me that evolution and speciation occurs is the fossil evidence of human evolution from what I'm sure the average person would call "lower animals".

Shemjaza
hominids2_small.jpg


These skulls are notoriously hard to label as either "Human" or "Ape".

Also examples of animals between what are very different groups like Tiktaalik and Archaeopteryx are convincing evidence.
 
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metherion

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I would suggest the following:
ERVs
nested hierarchy
observed speciation
Ambelocetus natons (Not sure if I spelt it right)
similar genes in related animals
the fossil record
vestigal structures (note that vestigal does not equal useless)


there's probably more that I just can't think of off the top of my head.

What does creationism have in terms of positive evidence?
Some calculations done of geneologies in a Bronze Age civilization's collection of mythology and an unsupported interpretation of said book of mythology.

Metherion
 
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RichardT

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Could you name a piece of evidence that would falsify common descent or is your point that the theory is unfalsifiable?

The point that I have been trying to show is that the ToE is in fact unfalsifiable. I'll start a thread on chimeras soon enough.
 
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MoonLancer

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The point that I have been trying to show is that the ToE is in fact unfalsifiable. I'll start a thread on chimeras soon enough.

sure it is. I have shown you time and time again that it is. am I going to have to do so again?
 
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thaumaturgy

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You know TMT I read the first two quotes of this post and I decided that I would not read the rest. I know that you have a wealth of knowledge which I'd prefer to read about.


I bet.

AND whereas, I, also, know you have a nicer side, I'm just going to forego the negative creationists bashing to maintain my high opinion of you .

Well, if I have said something that is in error, please correct me. I've seldom seen any creationists on this site who do know science.

Honestly. I'm often quite annoyed that people who don't understand even the simple concepts in a field I spent more than a decade studying tell me that I have been lied to or am simply mistaken.

I don't care if people don't know science, we aren't all supposed to be scientists. Just like I don't know accounting. But they are abysmally unprepared to debate against the science. Most of them will even tell you they don't have any background in this area. Yet they don't seem to ever mind telling us how we are either liars or deceived by satan!

Your opinion of me? I don't really care. Well. I don't like to be disliked but I can think of no more noble source of a negative opinion than from Creationists.

I provide facts to the best of my ability and you can either take 'em or lump 'em. What I would actually prefer is if you find an error, please point it out. If you disagree then go ahead and disagree.

I've actually got a good friend who is a creationist and a cracker-jack scientist. He is very smart and I respect him so much I've repeatedly provided glowing letters of recommendation for him for jobs in science.

I grant that he doesn't understand the geology (that's how he can be a semi-YEC...he's still trying to figure it out).

He's one of the smartest young chemists I know. When he makes a claim I can count on him to attempt to back it up.

THAT'S what earns respect in the debate. If you want to defend YEC or Creationism, I can tell you I've seen people who put up a better, more informed debate than just about any YEC on this board.

So, please, tell me how I bash creationists. I hopefully only bash those that deserve it by not stepping up to the debate fully aware of what they are getting into.
 
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corvus_corax

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If there are books of evidence as you say and you can't take one piece of that evidence and use it to show evidence for evolution than I doubt that any of it can be put together.
One piece of evidence?
Sure, I'll give you that. As a matter of fact, I'll give you objective empirical evidence.
Just keep in mind something for me will you? There is no one piece of evidence that "proves" evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory is nothing more than a scientific model that explains the diversity of species on this planet. There is no "one" piece of evidence holding together the ToE, it's the preponderance of evidence that does so. Keep that in mind, will you please?

Ok, now that that's out of the way- here's one piece of objective empirical evidence-
Allele Frequencies change over time.
An allele is simply a dna coding that that occupies a specific location on a chromosone. For example (like the one given in the article) a single gene may control the color of flower petals, however there may be many variations (alleles) for different colors of the petals (red, yellow, white, etc).
Now you can look around and see various colors of roses. What controls those colors? Alleles (variations). If there were no coding variation, then all roses would be a single color.

Now, take that simple example and expand it to other items, such as human eye color, hair color, uncut hair length, etc etc etc. As you can see, there are many allele variations.
Now back to my evidence- Allele frequencies change over time. For example, if 10% of a population has a given allele (coding variation for say, blue eyes) then among memebers of that population 1 in 10 chromosones will carry that allele. 9 out of 10 will be occupied by other variations of the gene.
Now take it a bit further and say that 20% carries the allele for green eyes, 20% carries the allele for hazel eyes, 10% carries the allele for violet eyes and the rest (40%) carry the allele for brown eyes.

Now, quite simply, Im going to put a common sense question to you, given the above information-
What is going to happen to the alleles (and the frequency of certain alleles) when the various eye-colored people start intermixing and reproducing?

Depending on who mates with who, the frequencies of any given allele will change over time in the population at large.

Please keep in mind- the above is a grossly oversimplified version of the process, but I think it serves both things that you have asked for-
1 One piece of evidence. To boot, this evidence is a concrete fact. Allele frequencies do, in fact, change over time.
and
2 layman's terms


Does allele frequency variation "prove" evolutionary theory? Not at all. But it does serve to demonstrate how variations can arise. Given enough variations over time (coupled with selection, drift, migration, mutation, etc), and you might start seeing offspring that little resemble their ancient ancestors.
 
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TheOutsider

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sure it is. I have shown you time and time again that it is. am I going to have to do so again?
I'm beginning to think that RichardT doesn't actually know what falsifiable means. Someone might actually want to explain the whole thing to him.
 
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Dovetail

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I was thinking, no evidence on this other than it makes sense to me, that maybe, God did create everything. However, the Bible says seven days, where maybe a signifies an age, instead of a literal day. So like, maybe the first age was the creation of space, time, and the planets.

Not one day, maybe, but maybe God's plan that the HOW was to take x time and somehow create space, and then bring the elements that make up the planets together to be planets. Not an instant creation in our idea of time, because God is not bound by human time. One instant for Him can be a billion years for us. Possible right?

Ok, so after all that happens, God brings together the gases that make up the sun, in the order that they have to be brought together to burn, and also the components that make up the moon. Not neccesarily a 24 hour our time day, maybe an age. The second day.

If you actually see the pattern of God's creation in genesis, you recognize that it had to happen in that order, plants cant survive without light so light had to come first, kind of thing. It makes sense to do things in His order of doing them. However, when he gets to life, right, which comes first?

Creatures of the sea. He said creatures, not specifically fish and whales. So who is to say that He didnt create in the water first, and then lead micro organisms there to evolve and grow, over time, using some of them to populate earth? Somehow bringing it all together. Sea creatures first that through His plan and His will evolved slowly to become what we have today. Christians, you believe that God created everything. So do I. But how does God create a baby? We have seen scientifically that He doesnt just make the whole baby. One egg, splits into 2, multiplies, this is MINI evolution. A baby is a tiny, very fast process of cellular evolution to create a whole human. God is God. He can do anything He wants, use any process to do it, and use as much time as He wants, and to Him the whole process of JUST human evolution can be considered one day to Him, so who is to say that God didnt create us out of dust, bringing dust together, bacterium live in dust, and we just evolved slowly as the HOW GOD CREATED IT.

God can use evolution to create. There is nothing stopping Him or telling Him, you can't do it THAT way. Humans assume that they can do this. You can't possibly know how it happened
No human can
You didnt exist
And another thing
God DOES exist, but only comes to those willing. He doesn't want to invade someones life where He isnt wanted and only will be hated any more than a human does. A kicked dog isn't going to want to come home. God is not doing things forcefully. If you hate and reject Him, and kick Him out of your life, and don't let Him in and push Him away, He quietly leaves you alone. I wouldn't want to force myself on anyone either. Thats just common sense. He will not force Himself to be a part of your life, He will not PROVE His existance, because the fact that He is God and YOU are the human remains, and He doesn't have to, He will not show Himself you you to prove it just to satisfy your arrogant pride of baby foot stomping *I want it MY WAY NOW* 2 year old temper tantrum, and He will NOT stop loving you. Athiest or not , He loves you, and He isnt gonna force Himself on you. God is NOT a spiritual rapist. You don't want Him, FINE, but HE still wants you. However, have it your way. Don't want Him in your life, He still works in it, like it or not, but He's not gonna make it a personal thing, or even talk to you about it. If He chooses to, great, but He is NOT a forceful God. So, you don't want Him, fine, Free Will, but He wants and loves you, like it or not, and you hiding under a blanket and saying *I cant see you you cant see me, I cant hear you you cant hear me* like a 2 year old after the horror movie does NOT MAKE HIM GO AWAY.
If you have a dog, and its in that room, you hiding your face *I dont see you you dont see me* does NOT make the dog stop existing. You cannot make God not exist, you can willfully ignore it, or even not see it, but He is STILL THERE, and He STILL sees, loves, and wants to help YOU, God could be doing tons of other stuff besides standing around watching you hide for 40 years. But, He is omnipresent, and infinate, so He has time, and patience. He loves you. If you hate Love, get over it, because He still loves you anyways, doesn't mean you absolutely HAVE to accept it.
 
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