Precepts study of Genesis 1

[shernren]

How do you know all of this? What tells you that you are guided by God and not Satan? What tells you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are headed for Heaven and not Hell?
If you don’t know beyond a shadow of a doubt what makes a person right with God, how can you know that you are right with God?
How do you know that you are following Jesus Christ and not one of the false Christs that Jesus warns us about?

John 10:24-27 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

There is no doubt in the Kingdon of God.

Did Jesus say "My sheep hear my voice, and they know every single thing about me, and they understand exactly what I'm doing inside out, back and front, through and through, and thus they follow Me"? No. All He ever needed was to know me, and was for me to hear His voice and follow it.

Now, I'm pretty good at recognizing my friends' voices. This clearly does not mean that I know every single thing about them. But I talk to them, and they talk with me, and the more we talk the more I get to know every inflection and nuance and tone of the way they talk and walk and live. I may not know these things consciously, but I know them well enough to be able to distinguish between friends.

With human friends, of course, something I don't know about them may turn out to contradict something I do know about them. They may have been lying to me; they may simply be living inconsistent lives in a such a way that I can't use what I already know about them to predict some other area of their lives. However, that's not the case with God. What I can't understand and don't currently know about God can never contradict what I do know about God.

How do I know God's voice? From the Bible. From the way He addressed His Son Jesus and His sons the Israelites and new Gentile Christians. I may not consciously know everything I use to discern His voice; I may even be wrong sometimes. But what does Jesus say Himself in the book of John? Right after what you've quoted (was there some reason you didn't continue?) He goes on to say:

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
(John 10:27-29 NIV)

Do I want to keep knowing Jesus better and better? Of course I do. Does my salvation rest on it? I don't think so. I know enough to know His voice, even if I'm not really that good at it right now; I certainly know enough to know that He speaks through the Bible.

As for the rest, I can only say to Jesus what the demoniac's father said:

Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?"
"From childhood," he answered. "It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us." " 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes." Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"
(Mark 9:21-24 NIV)

(both emphases added)

And in the end Jesus did, after all, answer the father's prayer: far less because the father had prayed it, than because it was Jesus who had heard it.

 

[gluadys]

I say eligible for grace as in whom grace is offered to. Calvinists believe grace is offered only to a pre-determined few.

Many Calvinists do, since they preach double-decree predestination. I hold to single-decree predestination and I do not presume to know whether God offers grace to a few, to many or to all. All I affirm is that whomever God wills to save will be saved.

If you continue to sin after you claim salvation through Christ, how often can you sin without making your claim to salvation a lie- meaning you were not really saved?

As many times as God is willing to forgive. I would expect that is at least the 70 times 7 Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother. I do not know of an upper limit to God's mercy. I do not know that it is possible to exhaust God's grace.

 

[crawfish]

How do you know all of this? What tells you that you are guided by God and not Satan? What tells you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are headed for Heaven and not Hell?
If you don’t know beyond a shadow of a doubt what makes a person right with God, how can you know that you are right with God?
How do you know that you are following Jesus Christ and not one of the false Christs that Jesus warns us about?

John 10:24-27 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

There is no doubt in the Kingdon of God.

Can you concede that there is a difference in having faith with no doubt in Christ, but yet have doubts that you have perfect understanding of His word?

I have no doubts about Christ as my savior, or in God as creator. I do have doubts about the various interpretations of His scripture (including mine). I've seen too many instances of people taking the same verse and coming up with two different, sometimes contradictory interpretations to feel that scripture is anything but "simple". I feel I must leave myself open to re-understandings of God's word as I continue to prayerfully study throughout my life; if I do not, and hold to my current understanding, I feel I am blocking God from further affecting me.

 

[crawfish]

As many times as God is willing to forgive. I would expect that is at least the 70 times 7 Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother. I do not know of an upper limit to God's mercy. I do not know that it is possible to exhaust God's grace.

Good answer. To put an upper limit on God's grace is to lose sight of the entire concept.

God's grace is necessary because we ARE sinful; we are incapable of becoming sinless on our own. Since I am a non-Calvinist ( ), I believe that the only way to lose God's grace is to actively choose to reject God.

 

[TankGirl]

Um...yeah...

So has anyone done a Precepts-type study on Genesis? Learn anything eye-opening?

 

[mark kennedy]

Hello all

I posted here a few months ago when I started looking into Creation, and found lots of interesting answers. Well, I've recently started a 6 week Precept study of Genesis 1. I am really loving this extremely in-depth study, and learning a huge amount.

I haven't had as much time as I would like to devote to it, but am looking forward to catching up & probably lurking here some more as well!

Has anyone else done this study, or anything similar?

Actually I have done several similar studies. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'Precept' but if you mean a foundational doctrinal narrative it clearly demonstrates that special creation by supernatural means is a foundational Christian doctrine. The Bible is more then religious poetry, it's redemptive history from very credible sources.

If you are interested in some more detailed expositions you have only to ask.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[TankGirl]

Actually I have done several similar studies. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'Precept' but if you mean a foundational doctrinal narrative it clearly demonstrates that special creation by supernatural means is a foundational Christian doctrine. The Bible is more then religious poetry, it's redemptive history from very credible sources.

If you are interested in some more detailed expositions you have only to ask.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hi Mark!

Here's my post with more on Precepts...

I'm guessing it would be!

It's a kind of Bible study, based on looking REALLY closely at the words of Scripture, checking out the Hebrew & cross-referencing scripture with scripture to discern meaning. Pretty cool actually. I'm a bit weird about it cos there's a group at my church who are SO obsessed, like this is the ONLY way to study the word (I'm a second class citizen cos I don't have an NASB ), but they were doing a Genesis one, & I've got this fascination with science & creation, so here I am! I'm enjoying it loads, actualy, and it fits SO well with the views that I picked up when I first started looking at this.

As the teacher said this morning - does it matter what we believe about Creation? Well, yes, it does! If death existed before the Fall, what does that say about the redemption plan? If Jesus quoted Gen 1, and treated it as fact, what does it say if we make it out to be a pretty bit of poetry with only allegorical truth?

Can you tell i'm ejoying all this learning?

Here's a link for you... www.precept.org (the one I'm doing is a Precept upon Precept - very indepth, and we watch a brilliant video with Kurt Wise each week too)

I have found it fascinating, and very enlightening. This was always an area I never considered to be particularly relevant to my Christian walk (you know, does it really matter what we believe about creation/evolution), and yet I have found it impossible to maintain that viewpoint having done this study.

Post 6 pretty well sums up a chunk of my thoughts on the course. That was all.

 

[busterdog]

I agree with your statement regarding Darwinism and improving toward salvation. But, I wonder why you bring it up. I've never met a TE that thought that.

I was simply assuming that this is how flaja might be using Darwinism.

We Christian literalists have to watch out for those of our kind who want to stone harlots to death. (No reference to anyone here in particular, I am just looking for an extreme form of literism.)

You TEs have to watch for those who how would make Darwinism the Gospel.

A bit extreme in both cases, but worth some concern.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I was simply assuming that this is how flaja might be using Darwinism.

We Christian literalists have to watch out for those of our kind who want to stone harlots to death. (No reference to anyone here in particular, I am just looking for an extreme form of literism.)

You TEs have to watch for those who how would make Darwinism the Gospel.

A bit extreme in both cases, but worth some concern.

OK. That's understandable.

 

[flaja]

Did Jesus say "My sheep hear my voice, and they know every single thing about me, and they understand exactly what I'm doing inside out, back and front, through and through, and thus they follow Me"? No. All He ever needed was to know me, and was for me to hear His voice and follow it.

In matters of doctrine and behavior, yes. Otherwise you could believe anything and say you believe God and engage in any behavior and say you are doing God’s will.

 

[flaja]

Many Calvinists do, since they preach double-decree predestination. I hold to single-decree predestination and I do not presume to know whether God offers grace to a few, to many or to all. All I affirm is that whomever God wills to save will be saved.

Luke 2:8-14 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

All people is not a select few.

As many times as God is willing to forgive. I would expect that is at least the 70 times 7 Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother. I do not know of an upper limit to God's mercy. I do not know that it is possible to exhaust God's grace.

What about 70 x 8?

 

[TankGirl]

Apologies for my part in the threadjack above...the post in question threw me off.

I have certainly been through a few deep scripture-based classes on Genesis, complete with word cross-referencing. It seems like the Precepts' use of inductive reasoning could very easily lead one to a creationist view of the scriptures, and to be honest I'm not a big fan of inductive reasoning. At least, you should be very careful of the times that you use that kind of reasoning when evaluating text because it's very easy to move beyond the intent of the author.

My study moved me farther away from a creationist viewpoint. I don't quite understand your post above; did your views in this area grow stronger or weaker? (I won't detail why because this is not the proper board for that discussion.)

Like you, though, my studies were an incredibly valuable experience and made me realize the power and glory of God in wholly new ways. I found the text was far more beautiful and complex than I'd ever imagined. Blessings to your continued study.

No probs

I'm not an ardent fan of Precepts (I'm not inclined to believe that any one person has all the answers when it comes to discerning God's word), but I have enjoyed this course immensely. I am soon to start the second part, entitled the Fall, the Flood & the Nations, and I am looking forward to it.

To clarify, the study has made my belief in creation as laid out in Gen 1-2 grow stronger. While I cannot claim to understand all the science, I am convinced by God's word & believe wholeheartedly that He did what He said He did.

Isn't it wonderful to grow in understanding of the nature of God? I confess that I find many of the discussions in these parts go over my head, but I have a fascination for the subject, and a passion for knowing God more.

Thank you for your words.

 

[flaja]

Staff Edit

We have to assume that God has revealed to us everything we need to know regarding salvation and godly behavior- otherwise God has right to punish us for not believing in and obeying Him. So in matters of doctrine and behavior I will admit that I may not have a perfect understanding because I have not studied enough, but I will not agree that a perfect understanding is impossible.

Staff Edit

If you are not certain that your interpretation of God’s Word is correct, how can you be certain that God is your Creator and Christ is your Savior?

 

[flaja]

We Christian literalists have to watch out for those of our kind who want to stone harlots to death.

If God says that harlots are to be stoned to death, what makes you think He doesn’t mean it?

It is true that a harlot can repent and ask for God’s forgiveness through Christ. But once that forgiveness is given, does God allow the woman to continue in her harlotry?

 

[Hismessenger]

Here is an interesting point for you to ponder.
In verse 2 when God said let there be light, there were a number of things that Happened. The first is that the light brought to the creation the understanding of who God is and what the creation was. It gave it cognizence to recognize it's maker. It was also the fulfilment of Christ minstry in the earth for He was the word by which all things are formed. And third when the light was separated from the darkness, it was the placement of Satan in His purpose. The earth was void and without form. In other words it was just dead matter until God breathed the breath of life/cognizence into it.

hismessenger

 

[flaja]

Staff Edit

If you do not claim an understanding of God for yourself, how can you possibly know when someone else has a better understanding than you do? And if you rely on the understanding of others, how do you know you are following God and not men?

If you have faith but little understanding (if any), how can you know that your faith is not misplaced? If you don’t understand what it is you have faith in, how do you know what faith is?

II Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You cannot profess faith without making an effort to understand God.

 

[gluadys]

All people is not a select few.

And I never said it was. I said I don't know God's mind on the matter. "A select few" is not essential Calvinist belief. Essential Calvinist belief is that God will save his elect. Whether the elect is a select few or a multitude is not given to us to know.

What about 70 x 8?

That's why I said "at least" 70 x 7.

 

[busterdog]

If God says that harlots are to be stoned to death, what makes you think He doesn’t mean it?

It is true that a harlot can repent and ask for God’s forgiveness through Christ. But once that forgiveness is given, does God allow the woman to continue in her harlotry?

Well, first of all, its against the law in the US. Scripture says obey the king, whoever he may be. Similarly, this is not Israel, where the law was implemented.

As crazy as your idea sounds, I don't think it is frivolous. Moving from the to the Church age and the age of grace is not always an obvious transition -- particularly for people like me who believe in inerrancy. Quite frankly I am not all the clear on some of these points. And I don't mean to say you are crazy, but stoning someone today would be crazy.

Certainly on some issues, we have affirmative scripture: Paul says homosexuality is still wrong, but eating kosher and circumcision are not required.

As for the woman caught in adultery, I don't think scripture records her repentance, simply the observation of Jesus that no one is less guilty than she. So, we all must get stoned. Oh wait, that's Bob Dylan.

 

[flaja]

Staff edit

Are you willing to tell someone that they are not right with God based on your understanding of God?

 

[flaja]

Well, first of all, its against the law in the US. Scripture says obey the king, whoever he may be.

Harlotry is legal in the sate of Nevada and except maybe when the harlot crosses state lines or is underage, harlotry is not against federal law. It is a state matter.

By the way if your king is Adolf Hitler, does the Bible say you have to obey him?