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Christianity is false!

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arpgm

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Christian's clam that Jesus is the messiah and their savior and god but take this into consideration:

1) Isaiah 45 and Zafanai 3 shows that when the messiah arrives the world will unite under pure monotheism! No time in Jesus's life time did this happen.

Also, Christianity teaches that there are three gods (The Holy Spirit, God, and Jesus) that are one. Does that sound like pure monotheism to you?

2) Jesus said "Think not that I have come to abolish the law(Torah) and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. " - Matthew 5

* The Sabbath on SATURDAY is suppose to be an ETERNAL covenant but Christians do not follow that.

* Nor do ALL follow Circumcision which is also an ETERNAL covenant

*Nor do they celebrate Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur

*Christmas or Easter was never mentioned in the OLD or NEW Testament, and these holidays have some origins of the Pagans!

* Also Christians does not eat kosher!

Jesus lied! He did change those rules!

3) Also the Old Testament NEVER SAID THE MESSIAH WILL DIE FOR OUR SINS!

"Every man shall die for HIS OWN sin" - Deuteronomy 24:16


also NOWHERE THE THE OLD TESTAMENT STATE THAT THE MESSIAH WILL HE A SECOND RETURN! And Christians claim Jesus will come back!

5) Jesus broke one of the ten commandments!

"And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." - John 9:14

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you."-Deuteronomy 5:12

5) The Old Testament was MISTRANSLATED TO FIT WITH JESUS!

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

6) God is one! Not Three(Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and God!)

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4).

7) Jesus's name has an origin of the devil!

When you pray to J-Esus, you are really praying to the Devil by his name Esus. Esus is the pagan, Satanic god of the Celtic Druids.

The Torah / Tanakh has been written the same since it was given to the Jews by Moses! Also there was a witness of about 33,000 people who heard God speak saying "This is what I want you to follow"!
 

BereanTodd

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2) Jesus said "Think not that I have come to abolish the law(Torah) and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. " - Matthew 5

* The Sabbath on SATURDAY is suppose to be an ETERNAL covenant but Christians do not follow that.

Actually Exodus clearly says that this (Sabbath) is an eternal covenant between God and Israel. The church is not Israel.

* Nor do ALL follow Circumcision which is also an ETERL covenant

See my comment above ...

*Nor do they celebrate Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur

Some of us do, but again, there is no need for Yom Kippur in the OC way, for Christ has made atonement for our sins.

Jesus lied
! He did change those rules!

Wrong. Jesus never changed them, the church has. In some instances they are justified in others not, which are which are subject to discussion ... but again, Jesus Himself changed none of that.

Also the Old Testament NEVER SAID THE MESSIAH WILL DIE FOR OUR SINS!

"Every man shall die for HIS OWN sin" - Deuteronomy 24:16

Please read Isaiah 53:

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,

yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering
,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


5) Jesus broke one of the ten commandments!

"And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." - John 9:14

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you."-Deuteronomy 5:12

He broke no commandment, He always observed Sabbath, what He rejected was the traditions of the scribes and pharisees which were added to the Torah.

5) The Old Testament was MISTRANSLATED TO FIT WITH JESUS!

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

Actually, if you look at the Septuigant, translated BEFORE Christ's birth, and by Jewish scribes and scholars, they also translated it as being a virgin. In the Greek the word they use is the technical word for a virgin.

Also, if you know Hebrew, then you also know that 'alma' does mean more than just a young girl, it carries at the very least the implication of virginity, even if it is not the specific technical term for virgin.

6) God is one! Not Three(Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and God!)

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4).

We hear you and agree that God is one.

7) Jesus's name has an origin of the devil!

When you pray to J-Esus, you are really praying to the Devil by his name Esus. Esus is the pagan, Satanic god of the Celtic Druids.

The Torah / Tanakh has been written the same since it was given to the Jews by Moses! Also there was a witness of about 33,000 people who heard God speak saying "This is what I want you to follow"!

Wrong. Jesus was named Yeshua, the same basic name as "Joshua" of the OT. Jesus comes from Yeshua being translated in the Greek, from Greek to Latin, and from Latin to German/English, where it became Jesus. No Satanic origin there, that is a big lie/mistruth you have put forth.
 
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cyberlizard

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nice to see an intelligent post in response to all the bog standard and off the cuff remarks and arguments put forward by the Jewish anti-missionary movement.

advise all to go to the first fruits of zion website and look at how they deal with these kind of objections.

Steve
 
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RussArtLover

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Tsk tsk. He did make a couple of good points. :)
I liked the Isaiah bit about monotheism. If you recall, Jesus alowed the devil to tempt him. Jesus supposedly "could" have taken over the world if he'd wanted to. But to beat the devil? Jesus refused? or got tricked out of doing it? :) Sneaky old devil might have proved his point to God right there, that we simply can not win. Ever. God will have to start doing miracles again or we are the devils toys. Except, I don't think the devil really cares that much. It's men who set him as they're example to get ahead by temptation and trickery we have to worry about. A shiney new car today, a casino owner tomarrow.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I can't really add much to what Todd said (great job, bud), but I can't resist the temptation to put my own spin and read on things...

First of all, the entire post assumes that the Hebrew Scriptures are inerrant and authoritative, and that Chrsitian confessions need to be checked against them.

But honestly, I see no reason to actually believe the Hebrew Scriptures apart from the truth that the metanarrative of the Jewish people was confirmed through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why should I believe the Torah any more than the Qur'an or the Vedas? Only because the Torah was professed by one who rose from the dead. For once I'd like to see a Jewish person defend the inspiration and authority of the Torah instead of just assuming it. But quite frankly, apart from the resurrection of the ultimate Israelite, Jesus Christ, you can't.

But hey, we'll go with it just for fun...

1) Isaiah 45 and Zafanai 3 shows that when the messiah arrives the world will unite under pure monotheism! No time in Jesus's life time did this happen.
Jesus' life time? Once you accept that Christ is resurrected to a new state of life-being, such that Israelites expected on the last day, then you accept that Christ is still very much alive.

And if Christ's life-time extends to this very day, and his life is poured out in the people he has called his own, then his messianic mission continues. His arrival is not yet consumated.

In the resurrection, the end of history (the resurrection of the dead and the vindication of the people of God) came in human history. The messiah continues his mission, still. It will be complete when he arrives is martial glory, which is precisely what Isaiah and Zephaniah foresee.

Also, Christianity teaches that there are three gods (The Holy Spirit, God, and Jesus) that are one. Does that sound like pure monotheism to you?
This incorrect. Christianity teaches that there is one God, of one essence, Adonai alone.

From the Athanasian Creed:

3. ...we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
The Shema remains intact: Hear, oh Israel, the Lord our God is Lord alone.

There are no others Gods besides the one God, who exists as a single community of three co-substantial persons.

You have your Christianity wrong, friend.

* The Sabbath on SATURDAY is suppose to be an ETERNAL covenant but Christians do not follow that.
First of all, the Sabbath is an eternal covenant in that God as eternally, and will forever, remain the destiny of all mankind. Mankind will not rest until it finds its rest in God, ever.

The Sabbath, the eating of the Shabbat meal and the lighting of the candals and the singing of the songs and the fasting and the prohibition of work, are all ways in which national Israel showed their allegience to this truth. The perscriptions of rest on the Sabbath are contained within the Torah law, which were not so much a personal ethical code or a means of individual salvation but a series of conditions, with corresponding blessings and curses for obedience and disobediences (namely dwelling in the promised land and exile, respectively). Celebrating the glorious truth that mankind, found most truly in the people of Israel, leads all creation into the rest all will find in God (which is, after all, Israel's primary vocation- to be a witness, a light, to the Gentiles/nations of the truth that there is but one God, who is the creator-god and their national patron), is eternal. But the means through which God decreed that Israel celebrated the Sabbath, which determined their status vis-a-vis the promised land, where specific to the suzerain-vassal form of the Mosaic covenant.

And I highly suggest you read The Sabbath, by Abraham Joshua Heschel, a mid-twentieth century Jewish existentialist. It's a fantastic meditation on the Sabbath.

But even ignoring those points, we don't forego the Sabbath. I personally celebrate it to commemorate God's gracious work in granting us existence, in creating the world. It's just that God's new creative work, in sanctifying creation through the glorification of physical, created matter in the resurrection of Jesus Christ- which, just as the completion of the first creation on Friday dusk is celebrated at that time, is celebrated on Sunday morning because that's when the recreative act took place- takes precedence.

* Nor do ALL follow Circumcision which is also an ETERNAL covenant
Same deal. Circumcision identified a person as a member of the people of God. It signified converts and their descendents as members of the people of God, through which the divine creator cast his sign and seal upon them.

But to claim that the sign is eternal is to confuse the covenant itself with the sign of membership. The covenant with Abraham, that his descendents shall forever be the people of God, is eternal. But nothing guarentees that circumcision will forever be the sign that binds a person to that eternal covenant.

And what is the Christian equivalent (and I know BreanTodd won't like this one bit)? Baptism.

Circumcision ran into two problems in the first century. First of all, as Jesus and the early church reconstituted the faithful remnant of Israel (that is, the Jewish community who accepted the prophet John the Baptist's message and who participated in the ministry and new life of Jesus), the identity of the people of God expanded from national Israel to a transnational, voluntary identity. And as it so happened, the act of circumcision was overtly Jewish. The Gentiles, to whom the first emissaries of the gospel message proclaimed their good news, were highly suspicious of the subversive diaspora community of Jews who constituted a dangerous full 10% of the imperial population. A new sign of membership in the eternal covenant was necessary.

Moreover, the patriarchial understanding of participation in the covenant- wherein the senior male of a housefold represented that family to God (essential, proto-federalism)- no longer applied in the new dispensation. A universal sign that could be applied to women as well as men was needed.

And thus, Jesus and his followers adapted and comissioned the mikvah ritual, wherein a Jewish person entering the temple or preparing for a festival would wash themselves in a special pool, to be the new sign and seal designating someone as a member of the eternal Abrahamic covenant.

*Nor do they celebrate Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur
Again, these holidays are laid down in Torah law, which was a serious of legal, not moral, stipulations that Israel had to follow in order to remain in the promised land. Christians, however, do not seek to live in Palestine. Instead of us dwelling in the land by our own obedience to the treaty stipulations of the Mosaic covenant, Christ dwells in us according to his own good pleasure and decision.

*Christmas or Easter was never mentioned in the OLD or NEW Testament, and these holidays have some origins of the Pagans!
First of all, the word Easter is not mentioned in the New Testament, but the event is central to the entire, THE ENTIRE, text. Would you not celebrate Passover to commemorate God's salvation of the people of Israel, in bringing them out of Egypt, if it were not commanded in the Torah?

As for Christmas... so? Even if this is true, it's not as if we're worshiping pagan gods. There were temples before the building of the one in Jerusalem, and many of the building materials came from pagan Tyre. Does that mean that when the Hebrews worshiped God in the temple, they were really worshiping Baal? Of course not, that's ridiculous.

* Also Christians does not eat kosher!
Again, this was a requirement of a set of laws stipulating the conditions upon which Israel would remain in the promised land. It was a symbol of identification with national Israel.

3) Also the Old Testament NEVER SAID THE MESSIAH WILL DIE FOR OUR SINS!

"Every man shall die for HIS OWN sin" - Deuteronomy 24:16
First of all, let me reinterate for the hundreth or so time, that Torah law is a series of legal stipulations according to which Israel may remain in the promised land or, conversely, go into exile. Many of these include not simply personal standards of living, but an outlines for government and court administration. All this verse really says is that the law courts of Israel should not put to death anybody for anybody else's crime. A good principle for any law court to follow, whether Israelite, or Ottoman, or American.

But that side, story time...

I want you to, briefly, completely put out of your mind the idea that Christians believe that Christ died for our sins in a legal sense. I know that's the mainstrem Christian belief in the west, that God legally credited Christ with all sins ever committed (or, if you're Calvinist, for the sins of the predestined elect) and then punished him accordingly, thus remitting us of the responsibility and pain of punishment. But put it out of your mind. I'm going to off you an alternate, and far more Jewish view of the atonement.

Judaism, like all good religions, answers some of the primary problems of life. Is there life after death? What is the ultimate purpose of humanity? Where did humanity come from? What is humanity's primary problem? What is the solution to that problem?

The Tanakh and Talmud make quite clear that humanity's primary problem is it's spiritual exile from God- an exile so deep that it mankind is alienated from even the knowledge of their creator.

Abraham's descendens through Isaac and Jacob, the people of God, Israel, is then chosen by God so that through them God can redeem the world. God has chosen a people for himself, whom he loves and nurtures, through whom he will restore the knowledge of himself to all humanity and renew his marvelous creation.

But as it so happens, Israel is not only a people whom God uses to restore humanity, but Israel represents humanity. Israel represents humanity in its deepest lows of sin and exile, its greatest highs of true praise and honor toward God, and illustrates the lengths to which God will go to restore his people.

Consider, of course, the exodus. God's chosen people are left enslaved in Egypt, ruled over by a pagan king who oppresses them and leads them away from the truth that they are a special peopled in relationship with the one true creator-god. In this midst of this turmoil, God steps in and rescues the people from bondage.

But even so, after their establishment in the land and a golden people of united monarchy, the Israelites are invested with the darkness of surrounding cultures, fail to uphold Torah law, and so suffer the curse of disobedience- they are cast out of the law and go into exile in Babylon.

The prophets mainly operated during this period, and often spoke of the return to the land and a renewal of the covenant. Jeremiah 31 is an excellent example of this prophetic expectation. Isaiah, also, proclaimed that the the sufferings of the people of Israel were pictures and representations of the world on behalf of all mankind. I'll readily accept, for the moment, that Isaiah 53 refers to Israel, the suffering servant who suffers on the behalf of the world, and not to Jesus Christ. Only through their sufferings could Israel fulfill their vocation to proclaim the truth of God to the nations, and they could not complete this mission under God returned them from exile.

So, of course, he did. We know from 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah that God restored the people of Israel to the land. We know even from Isaiah 40 that God called Cyrus the Great of Persian his annointed servant, through whom he ended the exile of Israel.

But there was a problem. This end of exile was geographic, but not spiritual. Israel returned to God, and experienced what was admittedly a great flowering of spirituality such as they had not known since the golden age of Saul, David, and Solomon, but it was not sufficient. Israel's vocation as the suffering servant of God remained unfulfilled- and afterward, they repeatedly came under the domination of foreign rulers, first the Persians, then the Greeks, and then the Romans- just as Daniel predicted.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Into this scene comes Jesus of Nazareth, who announces repeatedly that the kingdom of God was at hand. This was not some warm, fuzzy, religious sentiment. The kingdom of God is a fiercely political term, radical and subversive in a world where the only king is Caesar.

He was, of course, not the only first century revolutionary or messianic figure. Judas the Galilean fought the Romans during the turnover of power to the prefect Coponius in AD 8, and the Great Jewish Revolt from 66-70 AD, in which the second temple was burned down, certainly had its share of messianic figures.

But what was unique about Jesus is that he was messianic and announced the restoration of Israel, but also advocated nonviolence, and even nonresistence.

I think it was very clear to a man Jesus' great genius (whether or not you think we was risen or was a god, he is certainly one of the most interesting and remarkable people in ancient history) that the Romans could simply not be defeated.

What to do?

Now anybody, anybody, must have known that going around causing trouble and speaking of rule other than Roman rule during the Passover, a nationalistic holiday if there ever was one, was going to get you killed. Whether divine plan or not, Jesus' death was not on accident. He didn't go to Jerusalem to start a war. He went to Jerusalem on Passover, AD 30, to die.

Why would he do this? Some abstract notion of dying for the sins of the world? Maybe.

But look at how he dies. He brutalized by the agents of a foreign occupier. He is dragged outside the walls of Jerusalem, of all cities, and crucified, left to die.

He's taking the exile upn his own shoulders. He's fulfilling the messianic vocation by restoring the faithful remnant of Israel that returned from geographic exile, by reconstituting the people God, so that when he is risen from the dead, he will have brought the end of time into human history and provided a pathway out of spiritual exile once and for all, so that the people of God can finally fulfill their vocation to go out and preach the one true God to the nations.

And that is precisely what the messiah is supposed to do.

also NOWHERE THE THE OLD TESTAMENT STATE THAT THE MESSIAH WILL HE A SECOND RETURN! And Christians claim Jesus will come back!
Fallacy of the undisputed middle.

Even if it doesn't specifically predict an ascension followed by a second coming, it doesn't negate that possibility or rule it out.

Besides, what is expected in the Hebrew prophets is a messianic age, and age that begins with the reconstitution of the people of God by the messian, and ends in the final consumation of God's victory and the resurrection of the dead. And that's exactly what Christianity teaches.

5) Jesus broke one of the ten commandments!

"And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes." - John 9:14

"Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you."-Deuteronomy 5:12
He was following a moral imperative to help others. That superceeds the requirements of a legal system.

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.
Yeah, Isaiah 7:14 doesn't refer to Jesus. I agree. It's just that the theme was appropriated by Matthew to make a point.

But the idea that the idea of a virgin birth finds its origins in pagan lore is just plain wrong. Read Raymond E. Brown's The Virginal Conception and Bodily Resurrection. In it he gives a full and thorough analysis of every single god-human mating myth in the ancient world and every single seasonal birth-death-rebirth cycle to show that the New Testament accounts are not based, either literary style or conception, on these accounts.

Long story short- god-human mating myths in ancient Greece and the Near East involve just that, mating. That is not what the Matthean and Lukan narratives of the virgin birth are about. They Holy Spirit is not said to have mated with the Virgin Mary. Because, quite frankly, she remains a virgin. Women whom Baal or Zues rape do not remain virgins.

Moreover, Jesus is not held to be a biological offspring of the Spirit and Mary. Biologically, he's practically a male clone of Mary, his genetics and bodily composition being entirely derived from her alone. I'm 50% my father and 50% your mother. Unless I'm wrong about everything I've ever been taught about the birds and the bees, I imagine you are, too. But that is not the textual or doctrinal confession about Jesus. He is fully God, and fully man.

Not so in ancient myths. They're half-breed, demi-gods.

Even if you think it's a myth, it's not the same one.

6) God is one! Not Three(Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and God!)

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4).
God is one is essence. Ther is but one God. But there can be plurality in unity.

Let me talk about something that will be way over your head (not trying to insult you, it's just really complex German philosophy) but will serve as the best example that doesn't bastardize the doctrine of the Trinity.

In the 20th century school of philosophy known as phenomenology, of which I am definitely a member, consciousness is always consciousness of something. I cannot be awake without being aware of something outside myself. To be is to be aware.

Now, imagine a pencil. Go on. Now, your consciousness is currented concerned with, aware of, the pencil. Are you experiencing one pencil, or two?

One, of course, you say.

Ah, but there's the rub, I say.

When you are aware of something, you are aware of it in it's context. When you eat a apple, you are away of the apple-as-food. But it is obvious much more than that. To a botanist, they can also be aware of the the apple-as-an-ovum. These things are equally real (in technical terminology, they're called noema). There is a single, ultimate, objective, underlying the reality. But the thing-in-itself (single underlying reality) and thing-as-perceived (your particular awareness of it in such and such a way), however different, are ultiamtely stitched together.

Go back to the pencil. Currently, this pencil is the pencil-as-an-example. But is it only that? Not, it is also the pencil-as-discussed, and the pencil-as-a-corellate-to-a-person-of-the-Trinity.

God is one. There is a single, underlying, ultiamte, objective reality to God. God-in-himself is one, and only one. There is no other besides God.

However, God works in tandum with himself. God-as-creator and God-as-lawgiver are both eternally aspects of God. Christians call this the Father. God-as-savior is also eternally an aspect of God. So is God-as-transcendent-and-indwelling-presence.

It just makes sense that we would know God as one when he is transcendent, but know his different aspects as he knows them when he actually comes to earth and see his aspects from the inside.

God doesn't only indwell creation by becoming incarnate in a physical, material human being born of Mary; creation is subsummed into the Godhead, so that those who accept the reality of God can see God's inner workers, his different aspects as God is consciousnessly aware of them.

Consider another example. The speech-act.

The speech-act is an idea preventant is postmodern communications theory. When I say "I'm running to the store" or "look at the pretty picture" I am not engaging in a speech-act. I am meaning speaking.

But when a king says "fetch me water" or "go to war," it happens. The idea of a speech-act is that the saying is as good as, enacts, and is synonymous with, the doing.

I think we can both agree, all God's words are speech-acts. When God says "Let there be light," there was light. He didn't have to pursuade light into existence. His Word is always, forever, a speech-act.

Here's where it gets fun. In speech-act theory, there are, you guessed it, three parts to a speech act. Locutor, illocution, and perlocution. locu-what?

The locutor is the one, the person, who speaks.
The illocution is the word that is spoken.
And the perlocution is the power that turns mere speech into power- words into speech-acts.

Sound familiar? The Father speaks. The Son is the word that is spoken (John 1 speaks of the Son as the Word of God). The Spirit is the power of God to make it happen.

For God to be soveriegn, for his words to automatically happen, he must have three parts, which are all fully sovereign, all fully part of God, but distinctly three nonetheless.

You see, people think I have to argue for the validity of the New Testament in light of the Old, or for the Trinity once I've gotten to monotheism. Quite the contrary. I can't conceive of a reason for believing the Torah if Christ is not risen, and I think that you can't be intellectually honest as a monotheist without also being a Trinitarian.
 
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Benedicta00

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Gratis,
But honestly, I see no reason to actually believe the Hebrew Scriptures apart from the truth that the metanarrative of the Jewish people was confirmed through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why should I believe the Torah any more than the Qur'an or the Vedas? Only because the Torah was professed by one who rose from the dead. For once I'd like to see a Jewish person defend the inspiration and authority of the Torah instead of just assuming it. But quite frankly, apart from the resurrection of the ultimate Israelite, Jesus Christ, you can't.

That's a good point but a pretty good argument for tradition. I don't think Jew assume it anymore than we do. It's because of the eye witness accounts of all that God did in their midst handed down to them is why they believe. At some point these accounts were written down.

Why do we even believe Jesus rose? because we assume the NT is true? No, we believe it because of the word of eyewitness account that was handed down to us, because of the word of those who saw Him resurrected and also ascend. At some point ppl wrote down these eyewitness accounts.

arpgm,

I know you are Jewish and all, and you have to know how I respect Jews very much but we believe in Christ for the same reason you believe in God... because of the eyewitness testimony of those who knew Him and saw all that He did in their midst.
 
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davidoffinland

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From Finland.

If Mr arpgm read and understood what had happened during the Second Temple times, reading Jewish Hellenistic writings, concepts of Messiah and His work. some of the writings during 1st BCE and 1CT common era, etc.., Mr arpgm would come with a different view.

In Him, david.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Benedicta00 said:
That's a good point but a pretty good argument for tradition. I don't think Jew assume it anymore than we do. It's because of the eye witness accounts of all that God did in their midst handed down to them is why they believe. At some point these accounts were written down.

Why do we even believe Jesus rose? because we assume the NT is true? No, we believe it because of the word of eyewitness account that was handed down to us, because of the word of those who saw Him resurrected and also ascend. At some point ppl wrote down these eyewitness accounts.

Yup, fair enough.

I totally agree with Karl Rahner, et al., that the validity of Scripture and the faith rests on a historical argument for the resurrection of Christ, which confirms his message, and that part of his historical message was the comissioning of the church to authoritatively teach and practice the faith.

The only reason I haven't gone fully over to the Orthodox and Catholic view is that I remain unconvinced that with that authority came a guarentee that everything the church would ever teach in the future would remain infallible, or that the church is only infallible inasmuch as it is in communion with the Holy See of Rome.
 
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Benedicta00

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Yup, fair enough.

I totally agree with Karl Rahner, et al., that the validity of Scripture and the faith rests on a historical argument for the resurrection of Christ, which confirms his message, and that part of his historical message was the comissioning of the church to authoritatively teach and practice the faith.

The only reason I haven't gone fully over to the Orthodox and Catholic view is that I remain unconvinced that with that authority came a guarentee that everything the church would ever teach in the future would remain infallible, or that the church is only infallible inasmuch as it is in communion with the Holy See of Rome.
Well, all you have to do is look at the moral teaching of all the Christian churches and sects around. There is only one who has not succumb to modernism, humanism and secularism and it hasn't been easy. IMO, only a church protected by the Holy Spirit could stand and not compromise her teaching.
 
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RussArtLover

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Spin is an interesting word these days. A look at many perspectives causing dizzyness? Sorry if I sounded a little too much the devils advocate. I'm not. But I do agree with Lots wife about religeon put before fundamentals. Kindness, caution...
I sometimes contemplate a bigger picture. We know time passes faster away from the Earths gravity. Perhaps time is passing so slow on Earth that billions of years have passed here while only 8-12 thousand years relative time has passed in the depths of space? Spin that interval between creation and the garden and you get a very interesting cloth. But what does it validate? Possibly an earlier high tech civilisation on Earth or someone up there likes us?
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Spin is an interesting word these days. A look at many perspectives causing dizzyness? Sorry if I sounded a little too much the devils advocate. I'm not. But I do agree with Lots wife about religeon put before fundamentals. Kindness, caution...
I sometimes contemplate a bigger picture. We know time passes faster away from the Earths gravity. Perhaps time is passing so slow on Earth that billions of years have passed here while only 8-12 thousand years relative time has passed in the depths of space? Spin that interval between creation and the garden and you get a very interesting cloth. But what does it validate? Possibly an earlier high tech civilisation on Earth or someone up there likes us?
.....What are you talking about?
 
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RussArtLover

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I don't believe Christianity is false, but I think there is more to it. ..."let him who has eyes see" has always inspired me to look harder, even long after I have a satisfactory answer. I tossed the time dialation thing out for anyone who has ever been strugling to accept that Creation was NOT eight thousand years ago. But the figure might have merrit in a scenario like it.
.
And I like scaring posers :) It's fun to see someones eyes when they stop and think it could all be real.
 
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Benedicta00

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I don't believe Christianity is false, but I think there is more to it. ..."let him who has eyes see" has always inspired me to look harder, even long after I have a satisfactory answer. I tossed the time dialation thing out for anyone who has ever been strugling to accept that Creation was NOT eight thousand years ago. But the figure might have merrit in a scenario like it.
.
And I like scaring posers :) It's fun to see someones eyes when they stop and think it could all be real.
I thought it was, he who has ears, let him hear?
 
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RussArtLover

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Isn't it both? Let him who has ears hear and him who has eyes see? Pretty sure it just means let those with brains learn and understand. But I thaught be fruitfull meant artistic and multiply meant to teach for a long time too. That's the best thing about opinions, they are always open to interpretation. :)
 
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Benedicta00

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Isn't it both? Let him who has ears hear and him who has eyes see? Pretty sure it just means let those with brains learn and understand. But I thaught be fruitfull meant artistic and multiply meant to teach for a long time too. That's the best thing about opinions, they are always open to interpretation. :)
Not to my knowledge.. what it says is, he who has ears, let Him hear what the spirit is saying to the churches...
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I don't believe Christianity is false, but I think there is more to it. ..."let him who has eyes see" has always inspired me to look harder, even long after I have a satisfactory answer. I tossed the time dialation thing out for anyone who has ever been strugling to accept that Creation was NOT eight thousand years ago. But the figure might have merrit in a scenario like it.
.
And I like scaring posers :) It's fun to see someones eyes when they stop and think it could all be real.
By the way, the time dialation thing doesn't work. Russel's theories only work if the earth is near the center of the universe, in which case we would observe a blue shift, not a read shift, in distant celestial bodies.
 
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RussArtLover

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