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The Bible: Symbolic or Literal?

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Rick Otto

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It is both, sometimes simultaneously, othertimes not.

Eye candy:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0427_040427_noahsark.html

"El-Baz recounted his conversations with former Apollo 15 moonwalker James Irwin. The astronaut, now deceased, mounted six expeditions to Mt. Ararat in a search for the ark. Those treks were done through his High Flight Foundation, a non-profit evangelical organization based in Colorado Springs."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/ark_hunt_020830.html
 
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Floatingaxe

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[/color][/size][/font][/b]Then why not use the word סְפֵירָה? Circles and spheres are very different things, so why make such a blatant error?


The point is that they weren't inspired at all. Why would they call the Earth circular?


Because as well as it being a sphere, there are many circles on many planes in our big blue globe. Duh.
 
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david_x

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Then why not use the word סְפֵירָה? Circles and spheres are very different things, so why make such a blatant error?

The earth was circular to the people back then! That is how the learned it. You can not just put somthing out there that would just sound stupid to the people of the time.

To be fair a sphere is an infinate amount of circles.
 
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Fed

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"You're making an arbitrary distinction - desciptions of the earth vs. descriptions of events."

I don't think it's arbitrary...imagine if "He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (Job 9:6)" was "He shook the earth from its place and made its pillars tremble". I think there's a difference. In terms of language, the two sentences are trying to achieve different things. The first one is written to make a point that is quite unrelated to the structure of the earth. The second one is trying to tell us about an event; something that happened to the earth, and the structure of it immediately becomes important.
The only difference is that the second is past tense. Both are events.

If you really wanna get that picky, look at 1 Samuel 2:8:

He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap, to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.

It's describing a past event. You can't argue here.

"The only reason you reject cosmology from the Bible is that there is "clear scientific evidence" to the contrary."

When the Bible talks about a cosmological event, such as God creating the world, I accept it. For example, when it says "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth", I take it as it is. But when the Bible talks about cosmology as a metaphor to make a point about something else, like in Job 9:6, then I take it symbolically, because it's meant to be symbolic.
Again, who's to say it's a metaphor? The ancient Hebrews thought it was literal (or more specifically, they didn't care since the moral of the story was more important than the details). Without scientific knowledge, you wouldn't know. You're letting science influence your interpretation of scripture. The creation account could be just as metaphorical, but get the same basic message across - God created the universe.

"You accept those things literally which you see as being in tune with reality. That's why you reject geocentrism."

Well yes, everyone knows now that the earth is not the center of the universe, but even if science had never told us that, there wouldn't have been much cause to believe it because the Bible doesn't tell us that either.
The Bible strongly implies it. References to pillars, the Earth standing firm, and the sun and moon stopping their movement make much more sense in a geocentric system, and the Bible was written with this cosmology in mind. The Church had a reason for adhering to geocentrism - it seemed obvious given the scriptural references.

I used to be an agnostic, and stories of a Man who came back from the dead and walked on water didn't seem very 'in tune with reality'. I had to accept it on faith, or not at all. Now I feel convinced it's the truth, but I wasn't convinced back then. It's a similar case with the rest of the Bible...I don't want to reject it just because it doesn't fit my limited perception of "reality", which is mostly based on my own experience and what others have told me.
That's the thing - rejecting a strictly literal interpretation is not rejecting the Bible. It's really a modern concept - something can't be true unless it's literally true. For the ancient Hebrews, the moral or lesson of a story was more important than the detail. Obviously you can't throw everything out - without the Resurrection we're wasting our time, but a literal interpretation of things like the flood adds no moral weight to the Bible and requires constant mental gymnastics.

edit: something I've found on 'the earth not moving': http://creationwiki.org/Bible_says_the_sun_goes_around_the_earth
Maybe it's a similar case with Job 9:6, etc?

Maybe we should all just learn Greek and Hebrew? :p
I've found most of those arguments to be weak. The intended meaning was literal since the Hebrews were geocentric. It'd be like saying Genesis 1:11 is really referring to abiogenesis when it speaks of the ground producing plants. It's much easier to just dump the literal meaning altogether. Let science speak on what God's created. Let the Bible speak on his message to mankind.
 
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Dannager

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There are no myths in Christianity. Following Christ is a sure, true, solid way to live. Our faoundation is rock solid, with Christ as the Rock. You cannot go wrong following Jesus. In Him is no lie or any dark thing--only the absolute truth. What an awesome wonder that God provided for us, lost humanity!!!
So you disagree that the Bible contains "a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature,"?

Which part of that do you disagree with, Floatingaxe?

Is it not a traditional story? Of course it is.

Does it concern heroes or events? Of course it does.

Do those events lack a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation? Of course they do, that's what miracles are.

Are they concerned with deities or demigods? Of course, they're concerned with God.

Do they explain practices, rites or phenomenons of nature? Of course they do.

So, Floatingaxe, which part do you disagree with?

Or are you just insisting that Christianity doesn't contain any myths because you just don't like the word myth and really don't care at all about intellectual honesty?
 
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Dannager

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I don't need the Bible to tell me that goodness is from the Holy Spirit and not from the devil, but it has helped me understand the workings of the Spirit in my everyday life...
if all my choices had to do with extreme cases of good and evil, I wouldn't need the Bible and I would always know it's the Spirit. For example, if I feel something telling me to kill someone, lol, clearly that's not from God.
How do you know? God has told people to kill before. Heck, it happens in the Bible! So don't hide behind that - it just makes it look like you aren't even familiar with your own religion.

You're still not thinking critically.
 
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Dannager

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Hey look everyone! We have finally found "The One" who knows all about scripture! We can quit discussing and debating now! Let's see if we can get a moderator to start a specific subforum where artybloke can just share his wisdom with us.

:bow:
Yeah, DMagoh, because you've never claimed that you have the correct interpretation of scripture.

Give me a break.
 
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Dannager

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I would argue that the writers of the Bible never meant for these verses to be taken literally. I take the Bible literally where it talks about events, not where the authors used writing devices to make a point.
You mean like where the authors used the symbolic devices of the days of the week for creation in order to impress upon the people that God controls all days of the week, as opposed to the pagan gods controlling individual days?
 
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Floatingaxe

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Sure, but they clearly weren't that knowledgeable.

To some extent that is true. They were given the freedom to express what God inspired in them in their own words and within their own frame of reference and experience.
 
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Rick Otto

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_geocentrism

The geocentrists that are closest to the scientific mainstream accept essentially all the observations of the mainstream. They point to the theory of general relativity, which says that all physical phenomena can be described and explained self-consistently in any frame of reference. Since the current state of physics does not single out the geocentric frame of reference as special in any way, this group claims the geocentric frame is special for alternative religious reasons.

http://www.fixedearth.com/http://www.geocentrism.com/

The Earth is not rotating...nor is it going around the sun.​
The universe is not one ten trillionth the size we are told.​
Today’s cosmology fulfills an anti-Bible religious plan disguised as "science".​
The whole scheme from Copernicanism to Big Bangism is a factless lie.​
Those lies have planted the Truth-killing virus of evolutionism
in every aspect of man’s "knowledge" about the Universe, the
Earth, and Himself.​
Take your time.
Check it all out.
Decide for yourself.
 
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Dannager

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Because as well as it being a sphere, there are many circles on many planes in our big blue globe. Duh.
You're making excuses for the Bible. This is as thin as rationalizations get. The mental gymnastics equivalent of sticking a tuck jump full turn.
 
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Dannager

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The earth was circular to the people back then! That is how the learned it. You can not just put somthing out there that would just sound stupid to the people of the time.
Kind of like the earth being created over the course of billions of years and life arising from a complex series of interactions based on natural selection, mutation, genetic drift and a host of other processes?
 
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Dannager

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To some extent that is true. They were given the freedom to express what God inspired in them in their own words and within their own frame of reference and experience.
Does this mean that you concede they may have inaccurately represented certain bodies of knowledge for which they were ignorant?
 
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Floatingaxe

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Does this mean that you concede they may have inaccurately represented certain bodies of knowledge for which they were ignorant?


No. There is no basic innacuracy. If there were, it wouldn't be in Scripture. It is inerrant in message and content. The writers hadn't the scientific understanding of Creation that we have today....and still lack today!

We can certainly afford to be gracious and understanding of those fine people.
 
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Dannager

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No. There is no basic innacuracy. If there were, it wouldn't be in Scripture.
You need to fix this reasoning. It's pretty terrible.
It is inerrant in message and content. The writers hadn't the scientific understanding of Creation that we have today....and still lack today!
Wait, do we have it today or lack it today?
We can certainly afford to be gracious and understanding of those fine people.
I agree. But what you're discussing isn't being understanding. It's being naive.
 
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