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is creation outside of science's scope?

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archaeologist

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also ask yourselves this question:

why are people so hot and fired to block the discussion of the points i have made through the quotes i have posted 4 times now?

why do they think they need to derail this thread? what are they afraid of if this discussion continues?
 
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Rudolph Hucker

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also ask yourselves this question:

why are people so hot and fired to block the discussion of the points i have made through the quotes i have posted 4 times now?

why do they think they need to derail this thread? what are they afraid of if this discussion continues?
I am not attempting to block your discussion or derail the thread.

I have on this thread, and other threads, posed you numerous legitimate questions. To none have you yet responded.

In addition, I have posted here on far more threads than yours. This is a good place, and I came here for other reasons, reasons unconnected with you.

Take your time with the answers.

I note too that you seem unable to respond to EC's points either.
 
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archaeologist

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glaudys has responded to one of the quotes, i have omitted that one from this list and am trying to get this back on track:

pg.183-- "In our attempts to uncover the history of the cosmos, we have continually discovered that the segments most deeply shrouded in mystery are those that deal with origins."
(certainly looks like creation is out of reach of science)

pg. 183-4-- "This in turn implies that we must rely, to an uneasily largeextent, on our theories of how matter ought to behave, with relatively few points at which we can check these theories against observational data."
(not resorting to facts, but theories)

pg. 184-- "When we turn to the origin of planets, the mystery deepen. We lack not only observations of the crucial, initial stages of planetary formation but also successful theories of how the planets began to form."
(again, creation is shown to be out of reach of science)

pg. 184-- "Astrophysicists may now have more data, but they have no better answers than before. Indeed, the discovery of exosolar planets many of which move in orbits far different from those of the sun's planets, has in many ways confused the issue,leaving the story of the planet formation no closer to closure."
(science again proven to be limited and not able toanswer any questions)

pg. 185-- "and the second that 'the most secure prediction about planet formation is that it can't happen' " (science says it can't happen yet the Bible says it did, proved by the fact that we and they are here)

pg. 189-- "becasue astronomers have noway to prove that the instabilities needed for the model to work actually did occur.
(another example of the limitedness of science and that creation is outside of its scope)

pg. 235-- "the origin of life on earth remains locked inmurky uncertainty. Our ignorance about life's beginnings stems in large part from the fact that whatever events made inanimate matter come alive occurred billions of years ago and left no traces behind"
(quite convenient way to get out of saying they can't prove evolution true.)

pg. 235-- "Their conclusion reies on a reasonable supposition about primitive organisms."
(not fact, not evidence, not truth but 'reasonable suppositions...not enough to stake one's soul on)

pg. 240-1-- "wqe do not know whether life already existed 4 billion years ago, having survived the early impact storm or whether life arose on earth only after relative tranquility began."
(in other words science fails again to pinpoint/find an alternative to gen. 1)

pg. 241-- In either case, the crucial question of how life actually began on earth, either once or many times over, has no good answer though speculation on the subject has acquired a long and intriguing history."
(science can't provide the answer and can only resort to speculation and not fact. speculation is not truth, fact or evidence. in short creation is outside the scope of science)

pg. 245-- "The key question still remains: How does a collection of molecules, evenone primed for life to appear, ever generate itself."
(they are looking in the wrong places, they need to look to Gen.1)

pg. 249-- "What a hopeful, even prescient fairy tale this may prove to be. Life, far from being rare and precious, may be almost as common as planets themselves. All that remains is for us to go find it"
(science again shows it has no answers,no facts, no proof. all they have to do is turn to Gen. 1 and believe and they will get their answers---God created in the beginning, in 6 days)

this could go on but i think this presents a fine case for what i have talked about, secular science cannot find the answers and needs to be shunned by all those who say they believe in God.

it also shows that creation is well out of the scope/reach of science.
 
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gluadys

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In addition, I have been accused of being non-Christian.

That is one of the things we had to hammer home here---that it is completely unacceptable to make this accusation in a Christians Only forum.

It's in the rules, but newcomers don't always check out the rules and come in talking as if everyone who accepts evolution is an atheist.

I admit I am overly direct sometimes but this is based on my convictions and I don't try to surpress other people with their different convictions. I only expect fair play in debate as robust as it might be.

Something that is perhaps not as clearly articulated in the rules, but has been a plea from some participants, is that the focus be on content, not personalities. Some responses to archeologist have been more in terms of who he is than in terms of what he says.

And nobody should assume that Christianity ever developed in a candy-coated discourse. People of conviction have often spoken emphatically for their beliefs - including people like Martin Luther. Christ himself referred to religious leaders of the time as Vipers.

I can sure agree with you there. The Church has never been without conflict and arguments. And lots of vitriol used by all sides. So I expect when we get a bit boisterous we are actually following a well-established ecclesiastical tradition. :D

If you care about your faith you defend it with all your heart, especially if you feel it is being corrupted and rendered the object of ridicule by precisely the people you are trying to reach out to which are the unconverted.

Agreed.
 
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gluadys

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minor point, there should be 35 but then i disagree that anyone can see into the past (except the trinity). o far no one has given me an example and starlight is not an example as that is our present not the past.

So what was the point of quoting someone who obviously disagrees with you and thinks scientists can read the past except for that miniscule fraction of a second?


prove it. give me some links that describe how they are doing that. they can't even see into yesterday so how can they look back 13 billion years?

I suggest you try this book since you seem to have it handy.

Origins: 14 Billion Years of Cosmic Evolution by neil DeGrasse Tyson & Donald Goldsmith,

math is subject to the results of the fall like any other field. it is not immune. until you realize that you will always miss the answer you seek.

Then why does it work so well? Usually I only miss the answer I seek when I muck up by failing to carry a figure or using an incorrect formula. When I use math accurately, it seems to give the answers I need.
 
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ExpatChristian

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In fact, that pretty much sums up the issue for me.

It is exactly the issue. Archie thinks that you can't accept evolution and be Christian at the same time. You HAVE to believe in a 6000 year-old world to be a Christian and a literal Sunday-school version of Genesis (all the while of course visiting the doctor and taking anti-biotics and flu-shots both of which assume evolutionary biology in their development).
 
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archaeologist

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So what was the point of quoting someone who obviously disagrees with you and thinks scientists can read the past except for that miniscule fraction of a second?

avoiding posting links that provide examples of 'seeing' into the past? not sure what your point is here

I suggest you try this book since you seem to have it handy

i read it, how do you think i got the quotes. i would like links from you.

Then why does it work so well? Usually I only miss the answer I seek when I muck up by failing to carry a figure or using an incorrect formula. When I use math accurately, it seems to give the answers I need.

so you are saying that math is also immune to the results of the fall?
 
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ExpatChristian

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so you are saying that math is also immune to the results of the fall?

So if you are not avoiding my posts, then answer this simple one. How precisely did math get affected by the "fall". What did it look like before the fall, and what did it look like afterwards. Did some operators or constants get added or dissapear or change. Please explain this to everyone or withdraw gracefully from talking about things of which you do not know anything.
 
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gluadys

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avoiding posting links that provide examples of 'seeing' into the past? not sure what your point is here

Well I'm not sure what point you wanted to make by posting a quote whose basic message you disagree with.

i read it, how do you think i got the quotes. i would like links from you.

Since you already have a book that explains how scientists read the past, you don't need any links. They would just say the same thing.

so you are saying that math is also immune to the results of the fall?

Let's put it this way. I know that humans don't work very well. We quarrel, we fight, we steal, we envy, we lust, we destroy the planet we are supposed to be taking care of, we destroy our relationships with each other through adultery, divorce, greed, drugs, abuse, neglect, violence and war and we destroy ourselves physically, mentally, emotionally. Tell me that is a result of the fall, of our setting out on the wrong foot with our Creator from the get-go and infecting everything we do with our sin, and I believe you. It makes sense.

If math worked as badly as humans, I would say the same thing. But it doesn't. In fact, the elegance of the math that describes natural regularities has led some to remark that God is a mathematician of the highest order. So is God subject to the fall?
 
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archaeologist

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again trying toget this back on topic and i see there are no more takers on the quotes i provided so i must conclude that, along with the following quote, i have proved that creation is outside the scope of science and thus it cannot be used to determine what took place when:

from Fausset's Bible dictionary:


Creation, in the strict sense of the first origination of being out of nothing,
does not come within the scope of science. It is by the Bible alone, and”
through faith we understand that the worlds were framed (fitly formed) by
the word of God, so that not (as, from the analogy of things reproduced
from previously existing and visible materials, one naturally would
suppose) out of things which appear hath that which is seen been made”
(​
<581103>Hebrews 11:3). No human being was witness of creation (<183804>Job

38:4)
 
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ExpatChristian

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archie, the dictionary is developed for language learners. Before you have questioned the authority of the Bible on other threads in this forum, but now you apeal to a dictionary. A dictionary is a place to find the common meaning of words in normal discourse. Are you saying that linguists are the final authority on spirituality and the Bible?
 
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gluadys

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again trying toget this back on topic and i see there are no more takers on the quotes i provided so i must conclude that, along with the following quote, i have proved that creation is outside the scope of science and thus it cannot be used to determine what took place when:

from Fausset's Bible dictionary:

Looks like you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you had listened to me in the first place.

In my first post in this thread I said:


Creation, as an existing, physical reality, is precisely what science studies. But that it owes its origin to a Creator is a different question. And that is beyond science to determine.

Fausset says:

Creation, in the strict sense of the first origination of being out of nothing, does not come within the scope of science.

I don't think there is much controversy among Christians on this point or ever was.

So I wouldn't get too excited about proving something that was never really in question.
 
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archaeologist

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Looks like you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you had listened to me in the first place.

no, as you wer/are saying that science is the only way to know things that God did and that is wrong.

i have proven my point made in this thread and science is headed down the wrong path by following that which is not of God.

I don't think there is much controversy among Christians on this point or ever was.

if you were right here, there would be no theistic evolution theory, no progressive creation theory no evolutionary theory permeating believer's belief systems.

there is no evolution none whatsoever. it does not exist and science going about finding 'answers' the naturalistic way is not finding the truth about God, His creation or its origins.
 
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gluadys

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no, as you wer/are saying that science is the only way to know things that God did and that is wrong.

Actually, I said the same thing as the Dr. Fausset--that knowing nature was created is not something that comes from science. This is not something science can know. So I have agreed that science is not the only way to know things.

i have proven my point made in this thread and science is headed down the wrong path by following that which is not of God.

I think you have proven your point to yourself. I doubt you have convinced anyone else.



if you were right here, there would be no theistic evolution theory, no progressive creation theory no evolutionary theory permeating believer's belief systems.

Because I (and Dr. Fausset) are right, all these other options are possible.

there is no evolution none whatsoever. it does not exist and science going about finding 'answers' the naturalistic way is not finding the truth about God, His creation or its origins.

Obviously you are set in your opinions and have no intention of re-examining them. Just as obviously, I disagree with your conclusions. I feel they are based on the sands of ignorance and prejudice, not on God's Word.
 
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ExpatChristian

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Obviously you are set in your opinions and have no intention of re-examining them. Just as obviously, I disagree with your conclusions. I feel they are based on the sands of ignorance and prejudice, not on God's Word.

I have to reluctantly agree with this. :)
 
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