Is there something wrong with teaching children the Earth is flat?

[juvenissun]

YEC is not unable to answer this very simple question. They have better things to do.

"The earth takes shape like clay under a seal." (Job 38:14)
Clay under a seal is not round it's flat.

Not necessary. God could use a spherical seal. It is, in fact, a very beautiful concept. This seal stamped out many spherical heavenly objects, include the earth. Have you ever wonder why are all planets spherical? If you say: the gravity force. You are wrong. Many asteroids are NOT spherical. Also, it says "clay" under a seal, but not anything in liquid or gas form under seal. So indeed, it indicates a rocky planet, not a gas planet or a star. To get into it deeper, I am not sure a "molten earth" should necessary be a fact as the beginning of the current earth. It is only a hypothesis... Sorry, I got carried away.

"The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)"

This one is a little sticky because like XianJedi said, it is a "vision". However, notice that it says the tree grows "in the midst of the earth", which could mean from the center of the earth. Of course, the emphasis here is on the geometry, but not on the physical conditions. So, the growth could be radial in shape toward "all directons". If you read the explanation of this vision on verse 22, then you probably won't insist that this verse implies a flat earth.

Revelations 7:1 states the Earth has four corners,

A world map has four corners. Hasn't it? Do you think the publication of world map promotes the education of a flat earth?

"take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)

A sphere would have infinite number of "edges". Anyway you hold it would be on "an" edge.

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Compare to the argument on mutation and evolution, this is only a small case to a YEC like me (Gluadys, I did not give up on the lizard case. I need time and I will come back to you). Any harder verses?

 

[Scotishfury09]

Not necessary. God could use a spherical seal. It is, in fact, a very beautiful concept. This seal stamped out many spherical heavenly objects, include the earth. Have you ever wonder why are all planets spherical? If you say: the gravity force. You are wrong. Many asteroids are NOT spherical.

Ok, saying that the gravitational force on the earth and on an asteroid is the same is a complete lie. Unless the asteroid was as big as the earth (in which case it would be called a planet) it wouldn't have the same affect on a plant.

Secondly, you and I both know that assuming the seal was "spherical" is outrageous. How many spherical seals have you seen alluded to in any form of literature?

Also, it says "clay" under a seal, but not anything in liquid or gas form under seal. So indeed, it indicates a rocky planet, not a gas planet or a star. To get into it deeper, I am not sure a "molten earth" should necessary be a fact as the beginning of the current earth. It is only a hypothesis... Sorry, I got carried away.

What difference does it make whether the planet is rocky or not? I think a flat earth can still be rocky, don't you?

This one is a little sticky because like XianJedi said, it is a "vision". However, notice that it says the tree grows "in the midst of the earth", which could mean from the center of the earth. Of course, the emphasis here is on the geometry, but not on the physical conditions. So, the growth could be radial in shape toward "all directons". If you read the explanation of this vision on verse 22, then you probably won't insist that this verse implies a flat earth.

Why is "all directions" in quotations? I don't see that anywhere. A square has a center. Center doesn't imply only a circle.

What makes you say that the interpretation doesn't? I see nothing that would make the me think otherwise.

A world map has four corners. Hasn't it? Do you think the publication of world map promotes the education of a flat earth? A sphere would have infinite number of "edges". Anyway you hold it would be on "an" edge.

I believe a sphere really only has a surface and it only has one. The way you define edge would be closer to "one continuous boundary," which would make your hypothesis correct, but would make distinguishing between a square and a triangle fairly difficult.


I find it truly amazing to watch how some people will go to the "end's of the Earth" to rationalize scripture to fit a round earth, heliocentric view and yet won't make the slightest attempt to rationalize other scripture to fit an old earth view.

 

[theIdi0t]

Not necessary. God could use a spherical seal. It is, in fact, a very beautiful concept.

A world map has four corners. Hasn't it? Do you think the publication of world map promotes the education of a flat earth?

A sphere would have infinite number of "edges". Anyway you hold it would be on "an" edge.

Juvenism!, you have just committed one of the grave YEC sins: "Thou shalt not use the specious logic of Old Earth Creationist".

I could move on from flat-earth to geocentrism, but I do not want let you off scotch free from this grave sin that you have committed.

Are you telling me that if I was ignorant of all evidence outside the bible, that I would read Job's verse about the clay under a stamp, and go oh, the Earth is spherical? Are you calling God a liar? are you telling me that when one reads of Job talking of the edges of the Earth, he will see a spherical earth?

Nearly every passage of the bible, that mentions the shape of the earth, sees it as flat. Don't treat us like fools, even your brothers know better, and thats why they call these passages poetic.

If you feel you can use such specious logic, then it would be hypocritical to criticize old earthers, for saying the days in Genesis are really those longer God days, and not man days.

The latter is more reasonable to me, than this load of hooey you just presented. .

So, shame on you for insulting us, and the YEC heritage by doing so.

Repent!

 

[Citizinsane]

i think telling a child, as its parent, anything other than the absolute truth regarding the natural world should be labeled child abuse. santa- ok. the easter bunny, meh. the earth is flat- your setting them up for failure later in life, and you should probably be seperated from your child.

 

[juvenissun]

Hey, Dannager, Shernren, Gluadys, etc. Please come to help me. I was attacked by people who want to talk about science but do not know much about it and do not know how to ask question. Even you guys are not on my camp, but I believe that we could see the same thing in the name of science.

Or, at least you may clear up questions for them, so I know how to respond.

 

[theIdi0t]

Hey, Dannager, Shernren, Gluadys, etc. Please come to help me. I was attacked by people who want to talk about science but do not know much about it and do not know how to ask question. Even you guys are not on my camp, but I believe that we could see the same thing in the name of science.

Or, at least you may clear up questions for them, so I know how to respond.

 

[juvenissun]

Seal is a mold which stamps out similar geometry every time it is applied. Who said a seal could not be in 3D?

In fact, if you think small, it is impossible to have a 2d seal.

To be someone who tries to convince YEC, you need to know a lot more science. Please be humble.

 

[theIdi0t]

Seal is a mold which stamps out similar geometry every time it is applied. Who said a seal could not be in 3D?

In fact, if you think small, it is impossible to have a 2d seal.

To be someone who tries to convince YEC, you need to know a lot more science. Please be humble.

If you did not have any extra-biblical evidence, would you read those passages and assume the earth is round?

If someone wrote about stamping clay under a seal, would I think the seal is spherical?

If you were an OEC, the logic you used to defend your position would pass.
(Perhaps not, because I think this type of maneuvering might be a bit too far left field even for them)

"The plain meaning of Scripture is to be accepted" this is the YEC position, and the reason why they criticize OECs. But in your scenario your telling us that the plain reading of scripture should not be accepted, do you see this?

It is an unavoidable truth, that if you accept the plain reading of scripture, nearly all if not all verses in the bible that talk about the shape of the earth, perceive the earth as flat. If you were just to read the word, and not rely one bit on man's evidence-- such as those forged pictures from NASA, do you want to tell us you would see a spherical earth, or a flat-earth?

And do you not see a similarity between your maneuvering of those verses, and the OEC maneuvering of verses to say the days in Genesis are really those longer God days?

But just to confront one glaring issue of your original assessment, about spheres having infinite edges:

"by any common or logical definition of the word "edge." An edge can be thought of as a boundary - in which case a circle, being a single closed figure, does not have an infinite number
of boundaries." ~ Dr. Math

I'll also wait to see if, other YECs or TEs, will support your interpretation of these passages.

(please don't assume my other reply, was attempting to be hostile, I was just jesting.)

 

[shernren]

Hey, Dannager, Shernren, Gluadys, etc. Please come to help me. I was attacked by people who want to talk about science but do not know much about it and do not know how to ask question. Even you guys are not on my camp, but I believe that we could see the same thing in the name of science.

Or, at least you may clear up questions for them, so I know how to respond.

Sure, any specific questions you want to ask? I've already made my views on the flat earth known earlier in the thread.

 

[theIdi0t]

Sure, any specific questions you want to ask? I've already made my views on the flat earth known earlier in the thread.

I think he wants your validation, that seals can be spherical, and that spheres have unlimited edges, and that is what these passages in Job are referring to. He's hoping someone else will vouch for his "science" on the interpretation of those flat-earth like passages.

 

[gluadys]

Seal is a mold which stamps out similar geometry every time it is applied. Who said a seal could not be in 3D?

But you are looking in the wrong direction. The text does not say that the earth is like the seal, but like the clay pressed under the seal.

Certainly seals can be three-dimensional. Seals were often set in rings, for example. And I have seen pictures of cylindrical seals. They were certainly 3-dimensional.

But ring or cylinder were used to press an image into clay or wax. When a cylindrical seal was rolled over clay, the clay was pressed out flat, just as pastry is pressed flat by a rolling pin.

And the text says the earth is like that clay pressed out flat under the seal. So it doesn't matter if the seal is spherical. The image is still one of a flat earth.

 

[habeas]

"The earth takes shape like clay under a seal." (Job 38:14)

What is the diameter of the seal? If it is relatively small, the earth will take shape like clay under it, and still be spherical.

Here are the various translations:

"It is changed like clay under the seal; And they stand forth like a garment. (NASB ©1995)
GWT: The earth changes like clay stamped by a seal, and parts of it stand out like folds in clothing. (GOD'S WORD®)
KJV: It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
ASV: It is changed as clay under the seal; And all things'stand forth as a garment:
BBE: It is changed like wet earth under a stamp, and is coloured like a robe;
DBY: It is changed like the signet-clay; and all things stand forth as in a garment:
JPS: It is changed as clay under the seal; and they stand as a garment.
WBS: It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
WEB: It is changed as clay under the seal, and stands forth as a garment.
YLT: It turneth itself as clay of a seal And they station themselves as clothed.

 

[habeas]

The preceding verses illustrate a non-literal intepretation also:

8Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;

9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors; 11 When I said,

‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

I doubt that Job believed that the sea has literal doors, or that waves have pride.

 

[Assyrian]

If you want to see what sort of impression a spherical seal would make, just roll a ball across some mud. The result is not another sphere, but a long concave groove.

 

[theFijian]

Since geocentrism is wrong (or flat earth) it would be wrong to teach kids.

Since evolution is wrong, that is the worst thing you can teach a kid.

What do you want me to say?

I think we teach our children 'wrong' stuff all the time, and bad theology in particular, consider the children's hymn:

"My God is so big, so strong and so mighty, there's nothing my God cannot do"

Actually there are things God cannot do. God cannot lie, he cannot sin, he cannot act contrary to his nature. Yet (certainly in the circles I move in) I still hear this song sung, I'd be much happier if I never heard it again. I think it's probably songs like this which lead people to a wrong understanding of what 'omnipotence' actually means, subsequently Christians really do get stumped when they're asked the question 'Can God make a rock which is too heavy for him to lift?'

Also I wonder how consistent we all are with respect to things like Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, the tooth fairy etc. This isn't really directed at anyone in particular as I'm not sure what point the OP is trying to make.

 

[juvenissun]

Seal is a mold which stamps out similar geometry every time it is applied. Who said a seal could not be in 3D?

In fact, if you think small, it is impossible to have a 2d seal.

To be someone who tries to convince YEC, you need to know a lot more science. Please be humble.

I don't believe this simple idea would take so much trouble to explain:

Think a size-adjustable melon scoop is a seal. Get the picture?

 

[Galle]

I don't believe this simple idea would take so much trouble to explain:

Think a size-adjustable melon scoop is a seal. Get the picture?

If someone mentioned a seal from ancient times, I could picture a cylinder-seal, or a seal on a ring, or a stamp. The whole point of an analogy is that you point out a similarity between something poorly understood and something well understood. In other words, trying to analogize between the shape of the Earth and a seal is utterly useless if everyone thinks of an actual seal instead of the "melon scoop" seal that you have in mind!

 

[Scotishfury09]

I don't believe this simple idea would take so much trouble to explain:

Think a size-adjustable melon scoop is a seal. Get the picture?

Juvenissun, the ONLY reason anyone would ever think that this seal could be like a melonballer is because you think it has to be literal. It doesn't. If it isn't literal no one has to make up the ridiculous statements like "a seal that is in the shape of a melonballer."

And still, even if we were to amuse your idea of a spherical seal, that only gives you half of the earth. Don't say you could make a seal on both sides because thats even more far fetched.

 

[juvenissun]

The preceding verses illustrate a non-literal intepretation also:

8Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;

9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors; 11 When I said,

‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

I doubt that Job believed that the sea has literal doors, or that waves have pride.

Verse 8 echoes the Genesis Flood problem.

We really do not know how was the ocean made. You may imagine the water accumulated in it gradually like a pond raises water. But I don't think so. First, we did not have the pond to start with. Second, I think the sea water increases in a sequential, pulsive, catastrophic matter. (although I am puzzled on when would be the next one. A world-wide-active volcanic activity would centainly dump a lot of water into the ocean, such as the one at the Permian time)

With this mental image. These verses would just make sense.

 

[Assyrian]

If someone mentioned a seal from ancient times, I could picture a cylinder-seal, or a seal on a ring, or a stamp. The whole point of an analogy is that you point out a similarity between something poorly understood and something well understood. In other words, trying to analogize between the shape of the Earth and a seal is utterly useless if everyone thinks of an actual seal instead of the "melon scoop" seal that you have in mind!

A melon scoop will not stamp feature on the surface of the ball, you might get circular striations around the ball from irregularities on the leading edge of the scoop but not mountains and valleys the text is describing being stamped out by a seal.