Why is Fundamental Christians so down on Homosexuality?

[S Walch]

Grace doesn't mean you can claim to be a follower then do what you like and not suffer the consequencies for your actions.

 

[Charles YTK]

It seems as though you are arguing for legalism over grace.

Legalism would be a process whereby you earn your own salvation. Paul says this then is wages and not a gift. We don't earn our salvation. It is the gift of God.

Once we are saved we are supposed to live like Gods children and no longer like the Devils kids. God tells us what that is supposed to look like. We are to be Sanctified, made holy. How can you be a witness for God and be an immoral person? How can you be a witness for God and eat things God says don't eat them because they are an abomination to him?

If Yeshua is God and Lord, then do what he says. It is not a matter of salvation. It is a matter of becoming sanctified sons and daughters.

 

[I <3 Abraham]

Just as a SMALL hint to people concerning this issue. I will phrase it in the form of a question. Does a gay Christian who works very hard in soup kitchens and food pantries and sunday school display fruits of the spirit or not? What about a straight Christian who is just a bench member?

Which of those two men has fruits of the spirit?

P.S-Work out thine own salvation in fear and trembling

 

[Charles YTK]

It seems as though you are arguing for legalism over grace.

Paul teaches from Torah


This is not legalism. It is righteouness.


Did Paul really teach that the Law was Abolished?


No Paul never said the law was cancelled. He continued to teach from the law.

1 Cor 14: [34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


1CO 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

This is a Torah issue. Lev 18


EPH 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. [2] Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; [3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Torah from the 10 Commandments


Acts 21: [24] Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

This Purification associated with the Nazarite vow requires sacrifices. It is all Torah.



Ro 3: [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Ro 2: [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

2 Tim 3: [14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Timothy was a Gentile and was raised in the Jewish home of his grandmother and therefore knew the scriptures from a Child.

AC 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: [2] Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. [3] Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

Paul is keeping the feasts of God

Acts 20: [6] And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.

Acts 18: [20] When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; [21] But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.


1 Cor 5: 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our &#65279;a&#65279;Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, &#65279;a&#65279;not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[

 

[I <3 Abraham]

Paul teaches from Torah


This is not legalism. It is righteouness.


Did Paul really teach that the Law was Abolished?


No Paul never said the law was cancelled. He continued to teach from the law.

1 Cor 14: [34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


1CO 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

This is a Torah issue. Lev 18


EPH 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. [2] Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; [3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Torah from the 10 Commandments


Acts 21: [24] Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

This Purification associated with the Nazarite vow requires sacrifices. It is all Torah.



Ro 3: [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Ro 2: [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

2 Tim 3: [14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Timothy was a Gentile and was raised in the Jewish home of his grandmother and therefore knew the scriptures from a Child.

AC 16:1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: [2] Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. [3] Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

Paul is keeping the feasts of God

Acts 20: [6] And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.

Acts 18: [20] When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; [21] But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.


1 Cor 5: 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our &#65279;a&#65279;Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, &#65279;a&#65279;not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
[

2 questions:
1- For whose benefit does the law exist?
2- Are you yourself 100% in compliance with OT law?

 

[Charles YTK]

Just as a SMALL hint to people concerning this issue. I will phrase it in the form of a question. Does a gay Christian who works very hard in soup kitchens and food pantries and sunday school display fruits of the spirit or not? What about a straight Christian who is just a bench member?

Which of those two men has fruits of the spirit?

P.S-Work out thine own salvation in fear and trembling

If we use Pauls example in 1 Cor 5 the person would be expelled from fellowship. Becuase they are sending a mixed message which is very dangerous.

James 1: [5] If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [6] But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. [7] For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. [8] A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


I Cor 10: [21] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. [22] Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? [23] All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.


I understand where you are coming from and perhaps the man who works good works is showing good fruit in one area and more so than the pew warmer. However is we allow a known sinner to have place in our camp we teach our children and other members and seekers that the practice is appoved by God. And if we do not confront the person, what chance is there that he will repent?

 

[Charles YTK]

2 questions:
1- For whose benefit does the law exist?
2- Are you yourself 100% in compliance with OT law?

2 Answers:

The law exists for the sinner to expose his sin and to bring about repentence. For the righteous man it exists to provide instructions in righteousness. See 2 Tim 3:16. and Psalm 119. For all men the law exists as a testimony of who God is and what he expects from his children. We learn about his character from his word.

Question 2:

No I do not kep the O.T. law. It can not be done. There is no temple and no Levitical priesthood. Our Torah is transformed. It is the Torah of the New Covenant which is the Kingdom covenant. We are to do what is given for our covenant not the Sinai covenant which is broken and void.

The New covenant has it's own Torah. Yeshua taught much of it in Matt 5-7. The prophets and the Apostles show us more of it.

 

[I <3 Abraham]

If we use Pauls example in 1 Cor 5 the person would be expelled from fellowship. Becuase they are sending a mixed message which is very dangerous.

James 1: [5] If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [6] But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. [7] For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. [8] A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


I Cor 10: [21] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. [22] Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? [23] All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.


I understand where you are coming from and perhaps the man who works good works is showing good fruit in one area and more so than the pew warmer. However is we allow a known sinner to have place in our camp we teach our children and other members and seekers that the practice is appoved by God. And if we do not confront the person, what chance is there that he will repent?

I dont think that the scriptures you posted are easily applicable to an active homosexual church member. The first is about prayer and the manner in which it is should be carried out, unwaveringly. The second is a general exhortation to give up your old life and devote yourself entirely to God. This deserves a closer read. Paul is speaking to the reader, can you as a reader apply that same judgment on another person? No, you do not know their heart only God does. Paul, thankfully, helps us with the thorny question of determining another believers salvation by encouraging us to find out if they have fruits. I also am worried by part of your response: you seem to be saying that the mere presence of this man in a congregation is a problem and that he should be removed from the community in order to not send a confused message to children. This is a very dangerous position to take, we are told in scripture that the sign above a house of God should be "Whosoever will may come". Put another way, church is not a hotel for saints, it is a hospital for sinners. If you drive out our homosexual brothers you are doing a harm to Christs body IMO.

 

[I <3 Abraham]

2 Answers:

The law exists for the sinner to expose his sin and to bring about repentence. For the righteous man it exists to provide instructions in righteousness. See 2 Tim 3:16. and Psalm 119. For all men the law exists as a testimony of who God is and what he expects from his children. We learn about his character from his word.

Question 2:

No I do not kep the O.T. law. It can not be done. There is no temple and no Levitical priesthood. Our Torah is transformed. It is the Torah of the New Covenant which is the Kingdom covenant. We are to do what is given for our covenant not the Sinai covenant which is broken and void.

The New covenant has it's own Torah. Yeshua taught much of it in Matt 5-7. The prophets and the Apostles show us more of it.

Excellent! I am glad you agree that all of the laws of the O.T cannot be kept. It is especially incisive of you to point out the lack of the temple. Since it is destroyed there is no way for the people's sins to be forgiven through the sacrifices set out in the Torah.

I am further glad that you recognize that the law is for humanity's benefit but I would hasten to add that it exists also for God's glory (my calvinist roots are showing! )

I am a little bit worried, however, that you seem to be saying that the law in the NT is explained through a relatively great length of words. Jesus himself in the good news tells us what remains of the law. Since Jesus radically truncated the law, it would be anti-jesusesque to interpret the OT laws BACK INTO Jesus' retelling of the law. We've got just 2 commandments now and they are pretty easy to understand, hard to live by but easy to understand.

 

[Charles YTK]

I dont think that the scriptures you posted are easily applicable to an active homosexual church member. The first is about prayer and the manner in which it is should be carried out, unwaveringly. The second is a general exhortation to give up your old life and devote yourself entirely to God. This deserves a closer read. Paul is speaking to the reader, can you as a reader apply that same judgment on another person? No, you do not know their heart only God does. Paul, thankfully, helps us with the thorny question of determining another believers salvation by encouraging us to find out if they have fruits. I also am worried by part of your response: you seem to be saying that the mere presence of this man in a congregation is a problem and that he should be removed from the community in order to not send a confused message to children. This is a very dangerous position to take, we are told in scripture that the sign above a house of God should be "Whosoever will may come". Put another way, church is not a hotel for saints, it is a hospital for sinners. If you drive out our homosexual brothers you are doing a harm to Christs body IMO.

I really like the analogy of being a hospital for the sinners. It is a good idea. I suppose that what I am thinking is how do we place such a man in our fellowship. I would think it unwise to elevate him to teacher or preacher as some have one in recent years. This is where the mixed message is bad. On the other hand if he is a regular mamber and is trying to get free from his old life style, he deserves our support and acceptance. There is also a difference between openly flamboyant in your face homosexuals who demand a complete rule change for them, and one who is quietly minding his own business and keeps his private life to himself. Then his issues are between him and God.

In our church we had just such a situation. And the person repented and was delivered and has been trying to establish a hereosexual relationship and wants to marry. There is a complete change in their life.

 

[Charles YTK]

Excellent! I am glad you agree that all of the laws of the O.T cannot be kept. It is especially incisive of you to point out the lack of the temple. Since it is destroyed there is no way for the people's sins to be forgiven through the sacrifices set out in the Torah.

I am further glad that you recognize that the law is for humanity's benefit but I would hasten to add that it exists also for God's glory (my calvinist roots are showing! )

I am a little bit worried, however, that you seem to be saying that the law in the NT is explained through a relatively great length of words. Jesus himself in the good news tells us what remains of the law. Since Jesus radically truncated the law, it would be anti-jesusesque to interpret the OT laws BACK INTO Jesus' retelling of the law. We've got just 2 commandments now and they are pretty easy to understand, hard to live by but easy to understand.

The two commandments love God and love neighbor were the frame upon which all the old law hung. Remember it was in response to the Question of which was the greatest commandment in Torah. This is not a New Testament concept. It was taught the same way by the Jewish sages.

As an example, From Talmud Shabbath (E)

On another occasion it happened that a certain heathen came before Shammai and said to him, &#8216;Make me a proselyte, on condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot.&#8217; Thereupon he repulsed him with the builder's cubit which was in his hand.12 When he went before Hillel, he said to him, &#8216;What is hateful to you, do not to your neighbour:13 that is the whole Torah, while the rest is the commentary thereof; go and learn it.&#8217;

The two commands are the heart of the old Torah and they did not eliminate all the others. Neither do they eliminate all the law of the New Covenant and replace them with the two. If this were so then why does God show us that in the Millennial Kngdom we will keep his feats and live by his law and regulate all the world according to his commandments?

I do not believe that the Sermon on the mount is the total of all the teachings either. It is a short version. Yeshua spent the entire day teaching and this passage is about a ten minute read.

We see Paul holding to Torah instructions for the structure of the churches and for doctrine, including the Gentile church like Cornith. So there is an abundant amount of scriptural evidence that there is more than the two. The two are key to all the rest to be sure, no arguement there at all. But we still need some instruction in how to love God and how to love neighbor some times. Torah in Hebrew is not LAW, it is instruction and teaching.

 

[GenemZ]

Just as a SMALL hint to people concerning this issue. I will phrase it in the form of a question. Does a gay Christian who works very hard in soup kitchens and food pantries and sunday school display fruits of the spirit or not? What about a straight Christian who is just a bench member?

Which of those two men has fruits of the spirit?

P.S-Work out thine own salvation in fear and trembling

Doing good works is no sign of being filled with the Spirit. Ghandi was not Spirit filled. Being Spirit filled is revealed by a hunger for God's Word and obeying what it says. Anyone who has a certain nature will naturally be attracted to doing good deeds. It has nothing to do with being a Christian...

John 4:23-24 (New International Version)
"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
​

Any unbeliever who is so inclined, can do the same good works. That is why works does not save in themselves... A gay man helping out in a soup kitchen who is a Christian, yet who remains involved with homosexuality, is no better than a unbeliever gay who does likewise. That is, as far as his works counting for anything.

Many works of believers will be burned up at the Evaluation of the believer. Means nothing in itself other than someone competing to show who is a better person , humanly speaking.

In Christ, GeneZ
​

 

[GenemZ]

Excellent! I am glad you agree that all of the laws of the O.T cannot be kept. It is especially incisive of you to point out the lack of the temple. Since it is destroyed there is no way for the people's sins to be forgiven through the sacrifices set out in the Torah.

I am further glad that you recognize that the law is for humanity's benefit but I would hasten to add that it exists also for God's glory (my calvinist roots are showing! )

I am a little bit worried, however, that you seem to be saying that the law in the NT is explained through a relatively great length of words. Jesus himself in the good news tells us what remains of the law. Since Jesus radically truncated the law, it would be anti-jesusesque to interpret the OT laws BACK INTO Jesus' retelling of the law. We've got just 2 commandments now and they are pretty easy to understand, hard to live by but easy to understand.

What do you do with the following? Its not OT law....

1 Corinthians 5:11 niv
"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat."
​

If the Christian man is actively involved in a homosexual relationship? Should you fellowship with him? That is not the Law of the OT. Should you?

In Christ, GeneZ

​

 

[ReformedChapin]

What do you do with the following? Its not OT law....

1 Corinthians 5:11 niv
"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat."
​

If the Christian man is actively involved in a homosexual relationship? Should you fellowship with him? That is not the Law of the OT. Should you?

In Christ, GeneZ

​

We wouldn't be able to fit the OT law since we aren't Jews.

 

[GenemZ]

We wouldn't be able to fit the OT law since we aren't Jews.

I was not quoting the Law...

That is why I showed that.

It agrees with the Law.

Some things in the Law are universal. We can not throw these things out. For example: Sodom was a historical account which reveals God's attitude. The Sodomites were not living under the Law of Moses. Did that stop God?

In Christ, GeneZ
​

 

[EnemyPartyII]

1 Corinthians 5:11 niv
"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat."
​

If the Christian man is actively involved in a homosexual relationship? Should you fellowship with him? That is not the Law of the OT. Should you?

Note he doesn't say that homosexual monogomous reationships are immoral, does he?

Anyway, thats just some of Pauls random biggoted ramblings. Not the word of Christ.

Christ didn't "not associate" with ANYONE!

 

[icedtea]

Only marital relationships are sanctified. Homosexuals, even if monogamous (and having hung around the gay community for years, I can say there is no such thing as 2 males being monogamous, ha!) are still fornicating.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

and having hung around the gay community for years, I can say there is no such thing as 2 males being monogamous, ha!)

What a hateful thing to say.

 

[HeavenzAngel]

What a hateful thing to say.

I'm used to seeing people say hateful things, thats why I try to not tell people anything about me, they might use it against me or judge me, because it makes them feel better about themselves.
People usually hate on people, because they are guilty of doing the same thing and feel ashame so they feel better dissing others.

 

[S Walch]

What a hateful thing to say.

Why is it hateful?

There's enough heterosexuals that don't live a monagamous life, am I being hateful saying that?

Saying "They're evil because they are dity homosexuals who don't live monagmous relationships" would be being hateful, but merely pointing out something isn't being hateful.

Honestly, people brandish the "hate" thing without thinking these days...