Homosexuality is a sin, get over it...

[kiwimac]

You know,

I've had it with this place and its hatred of people made in god's image and likeness.

I'm gone!

Kiwimac

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

The notion that "homosexuality is a sin" rather depends on how you're defining homosexuality.

David.

Here are some verses from scripture that, have with in them good definitions from which we may work.
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. (Lev 18:22)

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (Lev 20:13)

I think the law of the Old Covenant gives us a pretty good working definition of homosexuality. Still all sex outside of marriage (between a man and a women) is SIN. Therefore ALL homosexual sex is sinful, just like ALL heterosexual sex outside of marriage.

Those "Christians" who defend and excuse homosexual sexual relationships are defending SIN. It is no different than me defending premarital sexual relationships or adulterous sexual relationships.

To defend tell the homosexual that he/she is ok as they are and that they need not repent is to speak sweet words that may condemn them to hell. It is no different than me telling an aduterer that what he is doing is ok and that God understands, because it was God who created him non-monogamous. It is a lie.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Be11e]

OP:
Gah? Another homosexuality post? How many do we need? Maybe this was posted before the thread where a homosexual Christian testimonied that he'd been driven away from the Lord by THIS FORUM!

Yeah...homosexuality is a sin ... as is lying, stealing, adultery, greed, jealousy, lust ... now tell me you've never been victim to one of them? We are all sinners! All sins are equal and forgiveable (but one) in the eyes of our Saviour. Why do we have to go on judging when we know we shouldn't!

It's sad how many times i've posted this exact same thing. I think i'm gonna just cut and paste it from now on.

Christianity: it's all about the love!

 

[ReformedChapin]

Here are some verses from scripture that, have with in them good definitions from which we may work.
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. (Lev 18:22)

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (Lev 20:13)

I think the law of the Old Covenant gives us a pretty good working definition of homosexuality. Still all sex outside of marriage (between a man and a women) is SIN. Therefore ALL homosexual sex is sinful, just like ALL heterosexual sex outside of marriage.

Those "Christians" who defend and excuse homosexual sexual relationships are defending SIN. It is no different than me defending premarital sexual relationships or adulterous sexual relationships.

To defend tell the homosexual that he/she is ok as they are and that they need not repent is to speak sweet words that may condemn them to hell. It is no different than me telling an aduterer that what he is doing is ok and that God understands, because it was God who created him non-monogamous. It is a lie.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

That's just your intepretation of the text!!!

Jk

The Gospel must be interpreted as objectively as possible. Not intepreted to please people (Galatians 1:8-10), if not we shouldn't be christains in the first place.

 

[ReformedChapin]

OP:
Gah? Another homosexuality post? How many do we need? Maybe this was posted before the thread where a homosexual Christian testimonied that he'd been driven away from the Lord by THIS FORUM!

Yeah...homosexuality is a sin ... as is lying, stealing, adultery, greed, jealousy, lust ... now tell me you've never been victim to one of them? We are all sinners! All sins are equal and forgiveable (but one) in the eyes of our Saviour. Why do we have to go on judging when we know we shouldn't!

It's sad how many times i've posted this exact same thing. I think i'm gonna just cut and paste it from now on.

Christianity: it's all about the love!

Actually christainity is about Christ.

And different christains seemd to have a different concept of love..they often confuse it with romanticism and relativism.

 

[OObi]

OP:
Gah? Another homosexuality post? How many do we need? Maybe this was posted before the thread where a homosexual Christian testimonied that he'd been driven away from the Lord by THIS FORUM!

Yeah...homosexuality is a sin ... as is lying, stealing, adultery, greed, jealousy, lust ... now tell me you've never been victim to one of them? We are all sinners! All sins are equal and forgiveable (but one) in the eyes of our Saviour. Why do we have to go on judging when we know we shouldn't!

It's sad how many times i've posted this exact same thing. I think i'm gonna just cut and paste it from now on.

Christianity: it's all about the love!

Yes those things are sins as well. However, we never see anyone prancing about preaching that "liars are made in God's image to don't pick on them". "Adulterers are a creation of God and are therefore beautiful, leave them alone". Even if people don't go to extremes, you will still never get something like "even though it is a sin to murder, we shouldn't be to hard on them, we need to love them not condemn them, leave them be". However, with homosexuals, people always tend to be defensive about the situation. That is why I made this thread, to point that out. We shouldn't be defending wrong, just as Cajun Huguenot pointed out, we could be leading someone down a very dark path once we be "politically correct" and "tolerate" their sin. Just something to think about...

 

[DivineRAiN]

OObi: However, we never see anyone prancing about preaching that "liars are made in God's image to don't pick on them".

for the most part liars don't get picked on. And I don't recall coming across a thread all about singling out that particular sin.

"Adulterers are a creation of God and are therefore beautiful, leave them alone".

they are already being left alone, aren't they?

Even if people don't go to extremes, you will still never get something like "even though it is a sin to murder, we shouldn't be to hard on them, we need to love them not condemn them, leave them be".

that's understandable.. I sure won't be saying anything like that once they find the person who killed a little girl from Detroit.

However, with homosexuals, people always tend to be defensive about the situation.

that's understandable. I have no desire to single out this group of people and I don't understand why there are people who do.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

OObi: However, we never see anyone prancing about preaching that "liars are made in God's image to don't pick on them".

for the most part liars don't get picked on. And I don't recall coming across a thread all about singling out that particular sin.

"Adulterers are a creation of God and are therefore beautiful, leave them alone".

they are already being left alone, aren't they?

Even if people don't go to extremes, you will still never get something like "even though it is a sin to murder, we shouldn't be to hard on them, we need to love them not condemn them, leave them be".

that's understandable.. I sure won't be saying anything like that once they find the person who killed a little girl from Detroit.

However, with homosexuals, people always tend to be defensive about the situation.

that's understandable. I have no desire to single out this group of people and I don't understand why there are people who do.

Adulterers are not trying to push justify their sin's. They usually hide them.

I have not seen Adultery Pride Day celebrated recently, nor have I seen liars Pride Day either.

All sex outside of marriage, but the only sexual sin publically celebrated and politically defended is the sin of homosexuality.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[babygurl2006]

well u know ive read and thought about this one. i do agree that homosexuality is a sin,but-dont throw your pearls to swine-just rememer, what would jesus do, say. and yes everyone sins, and telling a white lie is just as bad as homosexuality, a sin is sin. we should all pray and repent our sins, for others as well as ourselves.ask for conviction everyday of your life, for everyone. witness what is right, and if no one hears, be still- and pray

 

[David Brider]

Here are some verses from scripture that, have with in them good definitions from which we may work.
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. (Lev 18:22)
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.(Lev 20:13)

I think the law of the Old Covenant gives us a pretty good working definition of homosexuality.

Interesting.

First of all, do you realise that neither of those passages could actually be said to define the meaning of the word "homosexuality"? Seriously. Read them again. See what they actually say.

Secondly, do you genuinely think that homosexuals should be put to death? That's one of the big problems with taking passages from from the Old Testament and applying them nowadays. I wonder what would happen if every Christian who relies on the OT for their case against homosexuals/homosexuality decided to go the whole hog and put those people to death..?

Thirdly, seem to be making the assumption (assuming you really do believe that those passages offer a definition of "homosexuality") that "homosexuality" is the same thing as "homosexual sex". That's a fairly common equation, but it's not quite accurate, AIUI. A better definition would be "being physically and/or sexually attracted to people of the same gender as oneself". Which (unlike the two passages you cited above) would also include lesbianism (lesbians always seem to be excluded by the Bible - I think they get a pretty poor deal, really). But more importantly, it allows for the fact that one can be a homosexual without engaging in homosexual sex. That's an important distinction, because the assumption seems to be made that all homosexuals are guilty of transgressing Biblical law on the matter. The reality is that they aren't.

Still all sex outside of marriage (between a man and a women) is SIN. Therefore ALL homosexual sex is sinful, just like ALL heterosexual sex outside of marriage.

And yet I notice that no Christians are as vociferous in their condemnation of those who take part in other forms of extra-marital sex - or indeed of those who take part in other sins - as they are in their condemnation of homosexuals. Why is that, I wonder?

Those "Christians" who defend and excuse homosexual sexual relationships are defending SIN. It is no different than me defending premarital sexual relationships or adulterous sexual relationships.

I neither defend nor excuse homosexual relationships. But, there are a number of factors which make me hesitant to condemn them:

1. When it comes to non-Christian homosexuals, I'm not convinced that Biblical morality is meant to apply.
2. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. So why single out one particular sin and make an issue of that?
3. There are sins that seem far worse than two people having sexual intercourse. There are people out there killing and raping and stealing and lying and deceiving, and committing all manner of atrocities against their fellow men and women. Let's get a sense of proportion.
4. I'm pretty sure that the best way of interpreting the verses in the Bible that speak of homosexual sex, is a pretty straightforward interpretation. But, there is enough debate among scholars over the precise meaning of the words involved to make me wary of assuming that my interpretation is necessarily the right one.
5. There are homosexual Christians who are able to combine their faith in Christ with their sexuality, and often with an active monogamous sexual relationship. If they've prayed through the issues involved and talked them through with their pastor, then I'm not really sure that any words of criticism or caution from me would really do any good, and indeed they may do more harm than good.

David.

 

[Maccie]

1. When it comes to non-Christian homosexuals, I'm not convinced that Biblical morality is meant to apply.
2. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. So why single out one particular sin and make an issue of that?
3. There are sins that seem far worse than two people having sexual intercourse. There are people out there killing and raping and stealing and lying and deceiving, and committing all manner of atrocities against their fellow men and women. Let's get a sense of proportion.
4. I'm pretty sure that the best way of interpreting the verses in the Bible that speak of homosexual sex, is a pretty straightforward interpretation. But, there is enough debate among scholars over the precise meaning of the words involved to make me wary of assuming that my interpretation is necessarily the right one.
5. There are homosexual Christians who are able to combine their faith in Christ with their sexuality, and often with an active monogamous sexual relationship. If they've prayed through the issues involved and talked them through with their pastor, then I'm not really sure that any words of criticism or caution from me would really do any good, and indeed they may do more harm than good.

Oh, if only all posts were as thoughtful, loving, sensible, literate and Christian as this one! <sigh>

 

[ReformedChapin]

Oh, if only all posts were as thoughtful, loving, sensible, literate and Christian as this one! <sigh>

If you support sin, sure why not.

Although I do see wisdom in some of his words, it's still based on sexual perversion. Comtemporary christians need to stop with the worlds philosophies and see the Gospel for what it is. Justification of debate between the schoolars isn't an excuse for sin.

 

[ebia]

Adulterers are not trying to push justify their sin's. They usually hide them.

Sin is less bad if you hide it?

I have not seen Adultery Pride Day celebrated recently, nor have I seen liars Pride Day either.

How about a business fair where companies that exploit 3rd world workers are displayed. Or where consumption (gluttony) is encouraged. In every western country you could say that every day is gluttony-pride day.

All sex outside of marriage, but the only sexual sin publically celebrated and politically defended is the sin of homosexuality.

You seem to be forgetting, say, remarriage after divorce - politically supported - and promscuity - publically celebrated? And what about all the non-sexual sins "publically celebrated and politically defended" such as greed, exploiting the poor, etc, etc, etc. Sins far more clearly harmful than consentual sex.

You can claim all you like that you are treating all sins the same, but it's clear that you are not.

 

[Maccie]

If you support sin, sure why not.

You mean only posts that support sin are clearly loving, Christian, etc.?

Are you saying that REAL Christianity is harsh, unloving, rude, judgemental, etc. etc.?

I think you've got your knickers in a twist over this one!!!

 

[Imisssteve]

homosexuality is not a sin ignorance is though.

 

[ReformedChapin]

You mean only posts that support sin are clearly loving, Christian, etc.?

Are you saying that REAL Christianity is harsh, unloving, rude, judgemental, etc. etc.?

I think you've got your knickers in a twist over this one!!!

No, I mean to say that Christianity is composed of more than the postmordern "loving" concept. The postmodernist epistimological concept of love is not the same as the biblical concept of love.

I'll give you one example. God corrects us because he loves us, he lets us suffer for spiritual growth. Postmodern love is based on "tolerance," lets accept everyone for everything. This is a growing problem since these teachings plauge the church. For example most postmodern christians can't accept the biblical concept of loving the sinner but hating the sin...this is the issue with homosexuality. Not only that but they start justifiying their sin, as "feeling" or "God made them that way" even if they can't support it with scripture. Or they use the strawman argument which is what you are doing, putting words into my mouth or circular arguments "how would you feel that if they told you, you couldn't marry a woman" which goes under the assumption that homosexuality is natural although there is no proof and that sin is determined by feeling. They have an exogetical theology, it's no longer about what scripture says..it's what you want scripture to say.

If there is no objective truth to the bible? Why believe it at all?

 

[ReformedChapin]

homosexuality is not a sin ignorance is though.

When you can use scripture to back that up I'll believe you. But I will agree with you that most christians are ignorant and their christain philosophy is more based on tradition/feelings than on scripture.

 

[ebia]

No, I mean to say that Christianity is composed of more than the postmordern "loving" concept. The postmodernist epistimological concept of love is not the same as the biblical concept of love.

Perhaps, but the concept of love portrayed by some conservative Christians is so unloving as to make the concept worthless.

I'll give you one example. God corrects us because he loves us, he lets us suffer for spiritual growth. Postmodern love is based on "tolerance," lets accept everyone for everything.

This is creating something of a straw-man. That's not the argument of most (any?) people here. However, God's love does extend to allowing people to do the wrong thing - Christ never forced anyone to follow him or his commandments.

This is a growing problem since these teachings plauge the church. For example most postmodern christians can't accept the biblical concept of loving the sinner but hating the sin...

Because it is almost always a cover for "hate the sin and pay lip-service to loving the sinner". I've yet to meet anyone who uses the term and goes on to make it work in a valuable, Christ centred, way.

this is the issue with homosexuality. Not only that but they start justifiying their sin, as "feeling" or "God made them that way" even if they can't support it with scripture.

Not all facts are provable from scripture alone - to try and force scripture into that role is to try and force it into a role for which it was never intended by God.

Or they use the strawman argument which is what you are doing, putting words into my mouth or circular arguments "how would you feel that if they told you, you couldn't marry a woman" which goes under the assumption that homosexuality is natural although there is no proof

Define natural.

and that sin is determined by feeling.

No, sin is determined by harm. Or, put the other way around, by failing to meet at least one of the two great commandments. So, how does a monogomous, faithful, permanent, loving, consentual homosexual relationship break one of those commandments - without reference to any other command (since any other command must, itself, follow from the great two)?

They have an exogetical theology, it's no longer about what scripture says..it's what you want scripture to say.

IMO, that's what those who oppose all homosexual relationships - eg yourself - are doing.

If there is no objective truth to the bible? Why believe it at all?

Because God speaks to us through it. I don't believe the bible becaue it's true - I believe it because (and only to the extent) that God speaks through it. God is the point, the purpose, the authority and the truth - not the bible.

 

[ebia]

When you can use scripture to back that up I'll believe you. But I will agree with you that most christians are ignorant and their christain philosophy is more based on tradition/feelings than on scripture.

And others base theirs more on prejudiced interpretations of scripture than on Christ.

 

[Be11e]

Actually christainity is about Christ.

And different christains seemd to have a different concept of love..they often confuse it with romanticism and relativism.

Corinthians 13:4-7
[BIBLE]
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
[/BIBLE]

Love is Christ's Golden rule. Love others as you love yourself. God IS love. In this situation surely the most loving thing to do is not judge and harrass, but give the hand of friendship and prayer.

Yes those things are sins as well. However, we never see anyone prancing about preaching that "liars are made in God's image to don't pick on them". "Adulterers are a creation of God and are therefore beautiful, leave them alone". Even if people don't go to extremes, you will still never get something like "even though it is a sin to murder, we shouldn't be to hard on them, we need to love them not condemn them, leave them be". However, with homosexuals, people always tend to be defensive about the situation. That is why I made this thread, to point that out. We shouldn't be defending wrong, just as Cajun Huguenot pointed out, we could be leading someone down a very dark path once we be "politically correct" and "tolerate" their sin. Just something to think about...

I think threads like this can be leading people down a dark path too...giving people the impression of Christians as hypocrites - don't judge one another, love one another. And then look what we do! Yes adulterers and murderers are beautiful creations ... the Lord can accept adulterer's and murderers - the story of the adulteress springs to mind. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This forum is full of stones being thrown.