Originally Posted by Ben johnson
Since the proof text verses in this point don't really address the doctrine of election I will put the focus on the argument that these verses demonstrate responsible grace.
I have made the assertion that responsible grace is nothing more than a fancy form of works-based salvation.
Let's take a look at the first proof text:
2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Due to the brevity of point three I can only assume that Ben's intent is to show that this verse somehow supports his position of responsible grace. But there is nothing in this verse that would even hint at such a thing to me. It is simply asserting that anyone in Christ IS a new creation. What this verse fails to do for Ben is show where it is required that we are to do something to maintain our salvation. If the responsible gracer would simply continue to read on in the text he or she would see that in verse 21 Paul makes the admonition of the Christian to be reconciled to God and verse 22 follows that up by listing the reason why Christ "became sin for us." Why? - so that in Him (Christ) we might become the righteousness of God.
It is important to notice that in this text that there is nothing listing what will happen if we fail to heed the admonition. The reason for that isn't because those who aren't reconciled to God will go to hell but because Paul is addressing folks who are already in Christ and are already new creations.
Again, as with the verses I've listed in many of the other points of Ben I've already addressed - there is a clear pattern of righteousness being a result of salvation not a means to it. In this passage you have the qualifier - we are saved (vs 17-19). You have the tasking - be reconciled(vs 20). You have the result - the righteousness of God (vs 21). It is not the other way around.
It's funny that Ben would use 1 John 4:16 to demonstrate responisibe grace:
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
It's even funnier when you go on to read the next two verses:
In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Those who hold to responsible grace can never have confidence on the day of judgement because by the very nature of that vile doctrine people have no choice but to live in fear. Why? Because though they are already saved they have to maintain that salvation by doing various things.
And to further prove my point that the requirement of responsible grace to maintain salvation is not a requirment for salvation - but a result of it - one only has to read one more verse (19):
We love because he first loved us.
3. Salvation is "being IN CHRIST" (2Cor5:17), and Christ dwelling in him. 1Jn4:16
Since the proof text verses in this point don't really address the doctrine of election I will put the focus on the argument that these verses demonstrate responsible grace.
I have made the assertion that responsible grace is nothing more than a fancy form of works-based salvation.
Let's take a look at the first proof text:
2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Due to the brevity of point three I can only assume that Ben's intent is to show that this verse somehow supports his position of responsible grace. But there is nothing in this verse that would even hint at such a thing to me. It is simply asserting that anyone in Christ IS a new creation. What this verse fails to do for Ben is show where it is required that we are to do something to maintain our salvation. If the responsible gracer would simply continue to read on in the text he or she would see that in verse 21 Paul makes the admonition of the Christian to be reconciled to God and verse 22 follows that up by listing the reason why Christ "became sin for us." Why? - so that in Him (Christ) we might become the righteousness of God.
It is important to notice that in this text that there is nothing listing what will happen if we fail to heed the admonition. The reason for that isn't because those who aren't reconciled to God will go to hell but because Paul is addressing folks who are already in Christ and are already new creations.
Again, as with the verses I've listed in many of the other points of Ben I've already addressed - there is a clear pattern of righteousness being a result of salvation not a means to it. In this passage you have the qualifier - we are saved (vs 17-19). You have the tasking - be reconciled(vs 20). You have the result - the righteousness of God (vs 21). It is not the other way around.
It's funny that Ben would use 1 John 4:16 to demonstrate responisibe grace:
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
It's even funnier when you go on to read the next two verses:
In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
And to further prove my point that the requirement of responsible grace to maintain salvation is not a requirment for salvation - but a result of it - one only has to read one more verse (19):
We love because he first loved us.