You guys seriously need to chill out.

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Punchy

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This is not a contest to see how much of a "creationist zealot" or "atheist blowhard" you can be. Everyone should try to chill out and not take things so personally. There is, and always will be, great mysteries in this universe that are beyond our understanding, whether or not you believe in a personal God. Can we just promise to love each other and get along?

Peace.
 
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automan

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This is not a contest to see how much of a "creationist zealot" or "atheist blowhard" you can be. Everyone should try to chill out and not take things so personally. There is, and always will be, great mysteries in this universe that are beyond our understanding, whether or not you believe in a personal God. Can we just promise to love each other and get along?

Peace.


How long would you love me if I taught your kids that Batman & Robin were real people?

It is their right to believe what they like, but when they want to fill the heads of children
with their beliefs to the detriment of sanity and the general good, someone has to step in.
 
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Punchy

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How long would you love me if I taught your kids that Batman & Robin were real people?

It is their right to believe what they like, but when they want to fill the heads of children
with their beliefs to the detriment of sanity and the general good, someone has to step in.


That's not very charitable, man. That's a bit harsh. What about "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Besides, atheism is detrimental to sanity and the common good, just look at how communism turned out.

Peace.
 
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automan

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That's not very charitable, man. That's a bit harsh. What about "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Besides, atheism is detrimental to sanity and the common good, just look at how communism turned out.

Peace.

So I can rely on your 'Charity' to let me do whatever I like can I?
and I will love my neighbour as long as my neighbour remains sane and on this planet.

So you think seeing things for what they are is 'detrimental to sanity and the common good,'
you would prefer me to live my life according to some fairy story.

Communism was not brought about by the lack of religion, it was basically an idea that if everyone pulled
in the same direction great things could be done, unfortunately not everyone wanted to pull in the same direction so it went belly up, religion only got in the way of that idea.
 
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Tomk80

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That's not very charitable, man. That's a bit harsh. What about "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?
If I start espousing creationism for the same reasons that creationists do, I hope someone shoots me in the head. Point blank. I mean it too.

When my neighbours try to force creationism as some kind of "science" and want to force it into public schools, I see no reason to "love them as myself". Tolerance has it's limits, and when an intolerant form of cultism like creationism tries to force itself into public life, such limits are reached. I live in the Netherlands, where this isn't much of an issue. Yet every once in a while the ghoul of creationism rears it's ugly head even here. In my opinion, there can be no other response to this then to try to force it back into oblivion as soon as possible.

I try to moderate my tone in these debates, because I think persuasion is not reached by insult. I can have no respect for creationism, but I can have respect for individual creationists and will happily discuss these issues without insults. But a line crosses for me when these people start ignoring the evidence that is there, invoking the miracle escape. I have noted that this line is reached for me rather more quickly the last few months, which is why I tend to be less active on these forums.

Besides, atheism is detrimental to sanity and the common good, just look at how communism turned out.

Peace.
Look at how the Netherlands or Sweden turned out, which both have some of the lowest percentage of religious people in the world.. Unlike some other countries I could think of but will not mention (ok, I'm thinking of the United States), we have lower crime rates, higher wellfare, healthcare for all, an education system that rises above that of a third world country and all those things while maintaining a competitive economy. I have lived in the United States for half a year and would like to return there, but not for reasons that supposedly would have to do with religion. There is a sense of openness in America for new ideas that is harder to find in the Netherlands. But that sense of openness is not found in the strictly religious circles. Looking especially at the fundamentalist movement, values that I would consider moral such as tolerance of other groups of people, striving for universal wellbeing and freedom from oppression seem to be completely absent in the fundamentalist movement. Indeed, when I gave some examples of the standpoints of the religious right in America, even several of my fundamentalist christian friends in the Netherlands thought these people were misguided in their reading of scripture.

Perhaps you should consider that the issue is more complicated than religious or non-religious?
 
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AV1611VET

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If I start espousing creationism for the same reasons that creationists do, I hope someone shoots me in the head. Point blank. I mean it too.

...

Look at how the Netherlands or Sweden turned out, which both have some of the lowest percentage of religious people in the world...

Interesting remark, Tomk80.

[SIZE=-1]Suicide rates among Highest GNP Nations. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Gross National Product (GNP) ...Sweden, 14.7. Germany, 13.8. Norway, 13. United States, 11.8. Netherlands, 9.6 ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]www.mcdl.org/Stats/gnpsuicide.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Interesting remark, Tomko.

[SIZE=-1]Suicide rates among Highest GNP Nations. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Gross National Product (GNP) ...Sweden, 14.7. Germany, 13.8. Norway, 13. United States, 11.8. Netherlands, 9.6 ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]www.mcdl.org/Stats/gnpsuicide.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Without pretending knowledge about the subject, I would consider the fact that old people are the most likely group to commit suicide, and that the nations with the highest suicide rate are the ones with the highest average life expectancy. That alone would be enough to explain the data.

Besides, note that the completely secular Netherlands have a lower suicide rate than the overwhelmingly religious United States.
 
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AV1611VET

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Besides, note that the completely secular Netherlands have a lower suicide rate than the overwhelmingly religious United States.

Christians have the best life expectancy:

[bible]John 3:16[/bible]
 
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AV1611VET

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Why did I assume that you were going to produce something besides Bible quotes...

Because I quoted from the Internet something that showed an interesting corelation between what Tomk80 said, and the suicide rate in Sweden?
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Because I quoted from the Internet something that showed an interesting corelation between what Tomk80 said, and the suicide rate in Sweden?
...implied that atheism and secularization lead to depression and suicide, and ignored my criticism of your supposed correlation.
 
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Tomk80

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Interesting remark, Tomk80.

[SIZE=-1]Suicide rates among Highest GNP Nations. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Gross National Product (GNP) ...Sweden, 14.7. Germany, 13.8. Norway, 13. United States, 11.8. Netherlands, 9.6 ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]www.mcdl.org/Stats/gnpsuicide.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar pages[/SIZE]
Due to winter depression, yes. Look at where the US is, fourth on the list. And less high on the hemisphere (so longer light exposure during winter, resulting in less winter depression per capita). Interesting for such a highly religious country, no?
 
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Tomk80

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Because I quoted from the Internet something that showed an interesting corelation between what Tomk80 said, and the suicide rate in Sweden?
Also note that I never meant that religion as a bad thing perse. What I did mean was that the relation between well-being and religion, as well as morality and religion, is not a simple one-on-one relationship. There are many other factors involved. I myself am of the opinion that people would do the things they do without religion just as much as with. Religious dogma's would just be replaced by a different dogma, such as communist dogma.
 
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Contracelsus

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If the shoe fits, eh?

Well, to be fair, in the U.S. the highest divorce rates are invariably in the religious "red states", the highest crime rate cities are usually in "red states", etc.

So while the truly pious may not commit suicide as much, they don't seem to be happier.:)

They seem a violent lot who want others to live up to the virtues they can't muster for themselves.
 
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Contracelsus

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Actually I think debate boards let people blow off a lot of steam. People tend to say things in the anonymity of the internet that they'd never say to a real person they disagree with.

I agree we really should get along if possible. And your point is well meaning.

I think it misplaced on a debate forum...most of us probably come here to release tensions from biting our tongues all day around our cow-irkers and not saying the stuff that's in our brains.

I personally hope that no one believes a word I type unless they check it for themselves. I don't mind taking a verbal swing at someone, but it is just that...a type-written "swing" on a "debate board".

Hopefully no harm no foul!
 
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Tomk80

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Looking into this further, it is interesting to note that within the United States, the most secular region of the US, namely the Northeast, has the lowest suicide rates:
Regional crude suicide rates were highest for persons residing in the West (14.1 per 100,000 population), followed by the South (13.1), Midwest (11.4), and Northeast (9.3). After adjusting for age, race/Hispanic-ethnicity, and sex, rates remained highest in the West (14.7), followed by the South (13.1), Midwest (10.9), and Northeast (8.6). All regional rates were significantly different from the total U.S. adjusted suicide rate (11.8 per 100,000 population) and from each other. Adjusted suicide rates were approximately 70% higher in the West than in the Northeast (rate ratio {RR}=1.7) (3).

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00049117.htm

On the other hand it is interesting to note that high levels of religiosity show an inverse correlation with suicide. In other words, those who are actively religious show a lower suicide rate compared to those who are less actively religious or non-religious.
(for example: http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/155/5/413).
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Looking into this further, it is interesting to note that within the United States, the most secular region of the US, namely the Northeast, has the lowest suicide rates:


Source: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00049117.htm

On the other hand it is interesting to note that high levels of religiosity show an inverse correlation with suicide. In other words, those who are actively religious show a lower suicide rate compared to those who are less actively religious or non-religious.
(for example: http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/155/5/413).
This could also be due to the condemnation of suicide by the majority of Christian denominations.
 
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