You are unworthy! Please go take a seat.

[MrsJoy]

from Matthew Chapter 7

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Above we see what is the true foundation and measure of all scripture.

it doens't say that.
it says that this verse sums up the law and the prophets.
ie if you treat as you would be treated you will not kill, commit adultery etc.
nowhere is this claimed to be the "foundation" of ALL scripture.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

it doens't say that.
it says that this verse sums up the law and the prophets.
ie if you treat as you would be treated you will not kill, commit adultery etc.
nowhere is this claimed to be the "foundation" of ALL scripture.

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. emphasis mine


for this is the law and the prophets. what is this? Answer: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: emphasis mine

 

[JWNEWMAN]

it doens't say that.
it says that this verse sums up the law and the prophets.
ie if you treat as you would be treated you will not kill, commit adultery etc.
nowhere is this claimed to be the "foundation" of ALL scripture.

Jesus said the Law and the prophets testified of him and that the law and the prophets were summed up in this: " whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them"

 

[Tinker Grey]

intricatic,

Thank you for a lovely discussion. I suspect from here we would go to issues as to how useful a symbol can be if it is merely a symbol and so forth.

Perhaps in another thread.

I hope you do go on to read some of those other books. I've used a section from "Reading the Bible ..." on Jesus is Lord to explain to the home group that meets in my house the significance of this phrase in the Roman world. From "Heart", I've used a section on 4 meanings for the word Faith -- for my homegroup, for the elders and pastor, and then to the whole church because the pastor asked me to present it as it complemented his sermon. I bought the book for a rather conservative friend who likes a challenging read. He's the pastor in charge of counselling at our church. He photocopied the chapter on "Thin Places" for the Weds. night class on spirtual gifts (based on the Networking book -- I've never read it) and a class on how to pray for people. (My friend has a hobby of studying Celtic Christianity -- "thin places", then, was about experiencing God all around you.)

I don't want to present that I agree with everything Borg says. But, I do enjoy his writing -- he presents his ideas quite clearly. And, I do find many ideas -- as apparently do you (c.f. purity system.)

Enjoy.

 

[MrsJoy]

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. emphasis mine


for this is the law and the prophets. what is this? Answer: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: emphasis mine

the law and the prophets are not all of Scripture.
it sums up the law and the prophets i.e.you will not
murder if you treat as you want to be treated.
the law and the prophets are not the whole foundation of the Gospel.

 

[intricatic]

intricatic,

Thank you for a lovely discussion. I suspect from here we would go to issues as to how useful a symbol can be if it is merely a symbol and so forth.

Perhaps in another thread.

I hope you do go on to read some of those other books. I've used a section from "Reading the Bible ..." on Jesus is Lord to explain to the home group that meets in my house the significance of this phrase in the Roman world. From "Heart", I've used a section on 4 meanings for the word Faith -- for my homegroup, for the elders and pastor, and then to the whole church because the pastor asked me to present it as it complemented his sermon. I bought the book for a rather conservative friend who likes a challenging read. He's the pastor in charge of counselling at our church. He photocopied the chapter on "Thin Places" for the Weds. night class on spirtual gifts (based on the Networking book -- I've never read it) and a class on how to pray for people. (My friend has a hobby of studying Celtic Christianity -- "thin places", then, was about experiencing God all around you.)

I don't want to present that I agree with everything Borg says. But, I do enjoy his writing -- he presents his ideas quite clearly. And, I do find many ideas -- as apparently do you (c.f. purity system.)

Enjoy.

Thank you for the recommendations and the discussion.

I'd only recommend 'Christianity is Jewish' by Edith Schaeffer, but only because I find that to be an absolutely fantastic book.

 

[WalkingforHim]

Hello Universalism. Heresy being passed as tolerance is still heresy.

It's not heresy to think that God actually listens and accepts the worship of the people he created.

 

[united4Peace]

talking and worshipping... are they one and the same? I'm talking to you on this thread and i'm talking to someone on IM right now but i can assure you i'm not worshipping either of you

I think what's more important is that one has a relationship with God.
If my relationship consists of Yelling at God one day, Crying on God's Shoulder's the next day, Being excited about what's going on in my life and telling God all about what's going on like a friend another day...or needing God as a parent (mother/father figure) another day then that is what is important.
I talk to God all the time as God and I have a close relationship, there has been times in my life however where our relationships been rocky and I didnt trust God to talk to as much as I do now about my life.
Therefore yes...anyone, Christian or nonChristian can talk and have an relationship with God. Anyone can go into God's house and seek God...God calls for all of us as we are all God's creation and God seeks for that special relationship with us all. God wants us to know God.

Our Church wouldn't turn away anyone. Anyone can participate...even those still questioning and seeking.
Even Christians Question and doubt at times in their life, doesnt mean that their relationship with God is any less than anyone else's.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

the law and the prophets are not all of Scripture.
it sums up the law and the prophets i.e.you will not
murder if you treat as you want to be treated.
the law and the prophets are not the whole foundation of the Gospel.

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets. They testified of him and that, to "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you is the law and the prophets.

God is Love. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. All men are our neighbors. Our ego dies when we walk in Love and, the Spirit of God flows from our inner-most being.

If you wish to know the purpose of all I say it is summed up in the above statements.

 

[MrsJoy]

It's not heresy to think that God actually listens and accepts the worship of the people he created.

Matthew15: 8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

 

[Tinker Grey]

Thank you for the recommendations and the discussion.

I'd only recommend 'Christianity is Jewish' by Edith Schaeffer, but only because I find that to be an absolutely fantastic book.

I'll put it on my list. Thanks.

 

[MrsJoy]

I think what's more important is that one has a relationship with God.
If my relationship consists of Yelling at God one day, Crying on God's Shoulder's the next day, Being excited about what's going on in my life and telling God all about what's going on like a friend another day...or needing God as a parent (mother/father figure) another day then that is what is important.
I talk to God all the time as God and I have a close relationship, there has been times in my life however where our relationships been rocky and I didnt trust God to talk to as much as I do now about my life.
Therefore yes...anyone, Christian or nonChristian can talk and have an relationship with God. Anyone can go into God's house and seek God...God calls for all of us as we are all God's creation and God seeks for that special relationship with us all. God wants us to know God.

Our Church wouldn't turn away anyone. Anyone can participate...even those still questioning and seeking.
Even Christians Question and doubt at times in their life, doesnt mean that their relationship with God is any less than anyone else's.

you are right and wrong.
A RELATIONSHIP is what you keep talking about.
someone either has or does not have this RELATIONSHIP.
you cannot be lost and have a relationship with God at the same time.
I cannot be married to my husband and not know who he is and not have a relationship at the same time.
you are either in a relationship or you are not.

 

[united4Peace]

you are right and wrong.
A RELATIONSHIP is what you keep talking about.
someone either has or does not have this RELATIONSHIP.
you cannot be lost and have a relationship with God at the same time.
I cannot be married to my husband and not know who he is and not have a relationship at the same time.
you are either in a relationship or you are not.

I am right and wrong in "your opinion"
or you could put ...
I disagree with you...just as Im going to put right now that I disagree with you as I feel in my opinion that you are wrong (not saying you are, just in my opinion).

The way I believe is different from you and there is no right or wrong...
you are free to believe what you do just as I am free to believe what I do, and God will be the only Judge.
I was raised to believe that God doesnt lose us..that God remains with us always.
That sometimes relationships can be closer, or they can be not as close but never the less they are still there.

There have been times in my marriage that my husband and I havent had a close relationship, and other times (most times Thank God) that we have.
There are those that divorce there spouses, yet they still have a relationship with the person, the relationship just changes.

 

[MrsJoy]

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets. They testified of him and that, to "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you is the law and the prophets.

to fulfill them. yes. to die to save us. yes.
Jesus did not send out His disciples to preach the law and the prophets , but the good news.

God is Love.

God is also holiness and justice.
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight...
Hebrews 12:14
Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
1 Peter 1:15
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
1 Peter 1:16
for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
2 Corinthians 7:1
Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Matthew 12:18
"Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Love your neighbor as you love yourself. All men are our neighbors. Our ego dies when we walk in Love and, the Spirit of God flows from our inner-most being.

no one has suggested not loving our neighbors or not loving period.
by the way, the only way to remain in His love is not through disobedience, but obedience.
John 15:10
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

 

[MrsJoy]

I am right and wrong in "your opinion"
or you could put ...
I disagree with you...just as Im going to put right now that I disagree with you as I feel in my opinion that you are wrong (not saying you are, just in my opinion).

The way I believe is different from you and there is no right or wrong...
you are free to believe what you do just as I am free to believe what I do, and God will be the only Judge.
I was raised to believe that God doesnt lose us..that God remains with us always.
That sometimes relationships can be closer, or they can be not as close but never the less they are still there.

There have been times in my marriage that my husband and I havent had a close relationship, and other times (most times Thank God) that we have.
There are those that divorce there spouses, yet they still have a relationship with the person, the relationship just changes.

but you are in a relationship with him and that was my point.
you are either in a relationship or you are not.
you cannot not know someone and be in a relationship at the same time.

 

[united4Peace]

but you are in a relationship with him and that was my point.
you are either in a relationship or you are not.
you cannot not know someone and be in a relationship at the same time.

Now see that is where our belief differs.
I believe we all know God and God knows us as we are all God's creation so we are all in a relationship with her already.
Have been from the beginning of time.
Before we were born.
God is everywhere at all times, God knows everything before it happens...Omnipresant, omniscient, and omnipotent.
I believe God knew us before we came to be and as a Creation of God we are a part of God,
therefore we all have a relationship with God whether we know it or not.
Some of us are just closer to God than others, some of us just take longer to realize that God is there...

 

[MrsJoy]

Now see that is where our belief differs.
I believe we all know God and God knows us as we are all God's creation so we are all in a relationship with her already.

scripture speaks many times of those who do not know God, the world, the lost:

John 15:21
They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.
John 17:25
"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
Galatians 4:8
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.
1 Thessalonians 4:5
not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God;
2 Thessalonians 1:8
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

 

[united4Peace]

First Im only going to address the last...
1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
I believe everyone has love in them, therefore everyone knows God, and as I said I believe we are all a part of God as being God's creation.

2nd, I dont take the Bible literally. I dont rely on the Bible for my faith. People can throw around versus left and right to argue a point with, well that is NOT what the Bible was meant for. The Bible was written by humans, not by God (though inspired just as writings of today are still inspired by God - that is my opinion).
The Bible is a book of myths, poetry and history in the interpretation of the person writing the history down.
Im not about to pretend though that I understand the whole Bible and am not about to read into all these versus as Im not and Im not going to pick versus here and there and use them against another.

Peace to you however.
End of conversation as I can see its going no where

 

[koban4max]

Let's say I am going to a home fellowship. I'm not a believer but am interested in spiritual things and drawn by the Spirit to hear the word of God. There's an extra guitar sitting there and I pick it up and begin playing along with the others during worship. I'm good musician so the accompaniment is quite complimentary.

Afterwards the director of music comes up to me and says. "You play very well, however, my God tells me I shouldn't throw pearls before swine or have fellowship with the works of darkness. Therefor till you get saved, sanctified and join the church, you are welcome to come and have a seat but you can't play an instrument with the others because you are unclean (not washed in Jesus blood) and therefor unworthy to participate. You see God doesn't accept your attempts to worship him, in fact till you accept Jesus he can't even hear your prayers. To him you are vile and loathsome. Allowing you to take part in the "music ministry" is a profanity in the eyes of God, sorry! Loved your playing style, nice! God Bless! Hope to see you next week."

WHat the? HAHAHAH

 

[MrsJoy]

First Im only going to address the last...
1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
I believe everyone has love in them, therefore everyone knows God, and as I said I believe we are all a part of God as being God's creation.

even though all the other scriptures I posted said otherwise.
if everyone had love then this verse would not have been necessary.

2nd, I dont take the Bible literally.

Proverbs 30:5
"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Psalm 19:9
The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

I dont rely on the Bible for my faith. People can throw around versus left and right to argue a point with, well that is NOT what the Bible was meant for. The Bible was written by humans, not by God (though inspired just as writings of today are still inspired by God - that is my opinion).

exactly.
your human opinion, and one you will one day have to answer for.
how sad

The Bible is a book of myths, poetry and history in the interpretation of the person writing the history down.
Im not about to pretend though that I understand the whole Bible and am not about to read into all these versus as Im not and Im not going to pick versus here and there and use them against another.

Peace to you however.
End of conversation as I can see its going no where

if it is mythes and poetry then why are you here.
this part of the forum is for believers.