Wrath of God

[lawndartboy]

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What is the wrath of God from an EO perspective? How does Gods judgement fit into the thereputic model that EO teaches?

 

[Macarius]

The wrath of God, like the hand of God, is an anthropomorphism - a poetic technique to describe the experience of God's absence (when it feels like God is mad at us, even though it is we who have left God).

God's wrath is, in otherwords, a direct extension of His love. In His love, He grants us free will that we may freely love Him, but He doesn't revoke that when we choose to reject Him through sin - instead, He allows us to know the consequences of our poor choices. Quite possibly, God could (and often does) withhold the full consequences, because He is patient and merciful; when we experience those consequences, it can feel like God is NOT being merciful (though He always does this in such a way as to call us back to Him) - hence we describe it as His wrath.

But it isn't as if God's emotions change - as though He had emotions like humans do, or wrath like humans do. God is love. That never changes; we change, though, so sometimes we experience that love as wrath (think like how a child sometimes experiences the discipline of their parents as "wrath" even though it is honestly and truly an act of love on the part of the parent).

Hope that helps.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[inconsequential]

One metaphor that helps me is to imagine God's will is like a great river, it's current flowing as He wishes. If we work together with His will we can really go far, however, if we struggle to go our own way, His will can seem violent and wrathful but God hasn't changed. Someone please correct me if there is anything wrong with that metaphor.

 

[ProScribe]

Fr. John Matusiak at OCA answers these questions with a EO perspective:

OCA - Questions &amp Answers . . .

 

[ProScribe]

More specifically here: info@oca.org

 

[ArmyMatt]

God is dispassionate, so when we read of His wrath, we must remember that it is not like He is pacing in heaven, wringing His hands and furrowing His brow (forgive the crude imagery), but rather, His wrath is His love in the face of evil and wickedness.

 

[Nanopants]

God is dispassionate, so when we read of His wrath, we must remember that it is not like He is pacing in heaven, wringing His hands and furrowing His brow (forgive the crude imagery), but rather, His wrath is His love in the face of evil and wickedness.

Fascinating.

Is that an Orthodox view or personal belief?

 

[Dorothea]

The wrath of God, like the hand of God, is an anthropomorphism - a poetic technique to describe the experience of God's absence (when it feels like God is mad at us, even though it is we who have left God).

God's wrath is, in otherwords, a direct extension of His love. In His love, He grants us free will that we may freely love Him, but He doesn't revoke that when we choose to reject Him through sin - instead, He allows us to know the consequences of our poor choices. Quite possibly, God could (and often does) withhold the full consequences, because He is patient and merciful; when we experience those consequences, it can feel like God is NOT being merciful (though He always does this in such a way as to call us back to Him) - hence we describe it as His wrath.

But it isn't as if God's emotions change - as though He had emotions like humans do, or wrath like humans do. God is love. That never changes; we change, though, so sometimes we experience that love as wrath (think like how a child sometimes experiences the discipline of their parents as "wrath" even though it is honestly and truly an act of love on the part of the parent).

Hope that helps.

In Christ,
Macarius

This and Matt's post are the best explanations I've heard about God's wrath! I really like this post!

 

[Dorothea]

Fascinating.

Is that an Orthodox view or personal belief?

Yes, I believe it's the Orthodox POV.

 

[Ceridwen]

God's wrath is, in otherwords, a direct extension of His love.

How can this be biblical? Doesn't the Bible actually say that God's sternness runs opposite to his kindness? Doesn't it say that God hates people and curses them? This doesn't sound like a wrath of love. How far away from the clear language of the Bible can Orthodox Bishops go in providing an "interpretive gloss" on the Scripture?

Proverbs 3:32-33 (New International Version)
The LORD detests a perverse man but takes the upright into his confidence. The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous.

Romans 11:20-22 (New International Version)
Branches were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.​

 

[Nanopants]

How can this be biblical? Doesn't the Bible actually say that God's sternness runs opposite to his kindness? Doesn't it say that God hates people and curses them? This doesn't sound like a wrath of love. How far away from the clear language of the Bible can Orthodox Bishops go in providing an "interpretive gloss" on the Scripture?

Proverbs 3:32-33 (New International Version)
The LORD detests a perverse man but takes the upright into his confidence. The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous.

Romans 11:20-22 (New International Version)
Branches were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.​

The way I've come to see it is that love is not passive in the face of actions which are contrary to it. For example, if God self-sacrificially loves us, and that's the kind of love a man has for his wife (using a crude example to prove a point here), is it really love if the man could stand by doing nothing, passively loving his wife while her enemies inflict harm on her?

I'd say that's not love at all, and the real love of God has a harsh side to it that some would describe as vengeance, but not in the human sense, because God is always merciful even when inflicting harm on others.

That may or may not be contradictory to the Orthodox view, and I'd like to see if it is, so hopefully someone can expound on that a little.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

This and Matt's post are the best explanations I've heard about God's wrath! I really like this post!

 

[Macarius]

Fascinating.

Is that an Orthodox view or personal belief?

Orthodox view.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

How can this be biblical? Doesn't the Bible actually say that God's sternness runs opposite to his kindness? Doesn't it say that God hates people and curses them? This doesn't sound like a wrath of love. How far away from the clear language of the Bible can Orthodox Bishops go in providing an "interpretive gloss" on the Scripture?

Proverbs 3:32-33 (New International Version)
The LORD detests a perverse man but takes the upright into his confidence. The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the home of the righteous.

Romans 11:20-22 (New International Version)
Branches were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
​

These are not some new or innovative teachings. this is what the Church has taught from the beginning. I encourage you to read Macarius' post again above.

Also you are free to ask questions here and to fellowship, but debating and/or disrespect towards EO teachings or clergy/members is not allowed here.

 

[Megaloskhemos]

God is dispassionate, so when we read of His wrath, we must remember that it is not like He is pacing in heaven, wringing His hands and furrowing His brow (forgive the crude imagery), but rather, His wrath is His love in the face of evil and wickedness.

The wrath of God, like the hand of God, is an anthropomorphism - a poetic technique to describe the experience of God's absence (when it feels like God is mad at us, even though it is we who have left God)...

This might just be a reaction to word choice on my part, but at least the parts I've emphasized in bold here seem to be a bit more of a scholastic lean than I'm used to in Orthodoxy.

Both of these explanations seem to not give enough attention to the reality of God's energies. I know that there's a range of ways that the term "dispassionate" can be used, so perhaps there's a bit of semantic ambiguity happening here.

Any kind of clarification would be helpful.

 

[Macarius]

These are not some new or innovative teachings. this is what the Church has taught from the beginning. I encourage you to read Macarius' post again above.

Also you are free to ask questions here and to fellowship, but debating and/or disrespect towards EO teachings or clergy/members is not allowed here.

It's ok (at least to me) - I didn't take her post to be a debate, but to be an honest question of how we see the view that I posted as reconciled with the Biblical image of God, with a few passages she saw as particularly contrary.

To continue the discussion: I'll need to wait until after this next week to do a thorough answer (finals this week, and my child is due to be born any day now); but I think we can start by asking a couple questions:

1) Does God change? For reference, take a look at 1 Samuel 15 where God both repents and is said not to repent. What is meant by "repent" in the first sense (that which God does) and not in the second sense (that which God does not do, because He is God)?

2) Does Scripture say anywhere that God IS wrath? Or does it simply describe God as "having" wrath? E.G. is wrath an ATTRIBUTE of God or merely a description of some of God's actions?

In contrast, does Scripture describe God as BEING Love? E.G. is love an actual ATTRIBUTE of God (part of God's nature) rather than merely a description of God's actions?

If we answer these two questions, we can begin to see how an Orthodox view of God's wrath stems from the complexities of the image of God presented in Scripture. We do not deny God's wrath (I hope my view didn't trigger associations with semi-universalist liberalism; the EO aren't that), but we understand it as one description among many that is useful for humans seeking to understand God's actions. EG we can FEEL as if God is acting wrathful towards us (and it is proper to phrase this as saying "God's wrath is upon us"); we teach similarly about the doctrine of hell (hell is the consequence of our voluntary rejection of God - it is God's love, which we experience as wrath).

I know that isn't a complete answer, but hopefully it helps.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[Macarius]

This might just be a reaction to word choice on my part, but at least the parts I've emphasized in bold here seem to be a bit more of a scholastic lean than I'm used to in Orthodoxy.

Both of these explanations seem to not give enough attention to the reality of God's energies. I know that there's a range of ways that the term "dispassionate" can be used, so perhaps there's a bit of semantic ambiguity happening here.

Any kind of clarification would be helpful.

ενεργια just means "work" - God's energies are His activities (what He does); we know God by what He does, which sometimes is wrath (e.g. allowing us to reject Him) and sometimes mercy; but God IS love (ontologically - yeah, that is a bit too scholastic... perhaps I should say the ουσια of God is love?)

I suppose I was using western poetic terminology (anthropomorphism); that would give it more of a scholastic / academic flare than intended, but the word is just so darned convenient for expressing what I mean

 

[SoulFoodEater]

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

What is the wrath of God from an EO perspective? How does Gods judgement fit into the thereputic model that EO teaches?

The whole point of this verse is "what does it mean to believe in the Son?" This is what's really important. Its all about how we believe in Jesus. Believing in Jesus is a transforming and deifying experience, not a simple rational affirmation. It takes an inward renewal and change in order for a person to have true faith in the Son of God. This change of course is brought about by the Holy Spirit and in Christ's Orthodox Church. It is also only in this Orthodox Church that the "knowledge of the Son of God" (Eph 4:13) exists whereby we can have this faith that saves us from God's wrath. So my answer would be that you must be Orthodox in order to have true faith in Christ and in order to know Him, and thereby be saved from God's wrath.

It was in these verses of Epesians chapter 4 that St Paul was referring to the Orthodox Church as the only way a person could have true "knowledge of Christ". Just read carefully it and you'll understand what I mean. It says that Christ gave us "pastors and teachers" in the ancient Church to teach us the "knowledge of Christ". It this "knowledge of Christ" which leads us to true faith in Him which saves us from God's wrath.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Ephesians 4



Many people say they believe that Jesus is the Son of God incarnated to save us but few actually know what true faith is. Faith in the Son of God must be brought about by a true knowledge of Him revealed by proper pastors and teachers, but most of all by the operation of Divine Grace working secretly in the inner chambers of the heart - which is the spiritual center of the human person.

 

[Nanopants]

2) Does Scripture say anywhere that God IS wrath? Or does it simply describe God as "having" wrath? E.G. is wrath an ATTRIBUTE of God or merely a description of some of God's actions?

Well this comes close:

The LORD [is] a man of war (Exd 15:3)

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Well this comes close:

The LORD [is] a man of war (Exd 15:3)

My text reads The Lord brings wars to nothing; the Lord is His name. (Orthodox Study Bible)