Wrath of God

[Nanopants]

My text reads The Lord brings wars to nothing; the Lord is His name. (Orthodox Study Bible)

Interesting. Mine was based on the Masoretic text, but I honestly don't know how reliable it is.

 

[Megaloskhemos]

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[Megaloskhemos]

Well this comes close:

The LORD [is] a man of war (Exd 15:3)

My text reads The Lord brings wars to nothing; the Lord is His name. (Orthodox Study Bible)

Interesting. Mine was based on the Masoretic text, but I honestly don't know how reliable it is.

Nanopants' version is the Masoretic and Ortho_Cat's is the Septuagint. The Septuagint is technically older than the Masoretic, but it's hard to say which variant of the verse is more formally similar to what the original Hebrew might have said.

However, the Greek word translated in the OSB as "bring to nothing" is "syntrivo" which literally means to "tred down" or "crush." It's a fairly violent word.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I was really on a roll with my journey to Orthodoxy but a tremendous speed bump came my way---wrath....then predestination....then the doctrines on hell....and ultimately atonement. I'm coming to the realization that I'm more of a Roman Catholic than I ever realized...What was a 90% chance of conversion about 2 months ago is now about 30% I'd say.

There is just too much in the Bible that speaks of God's wrath, IMHO, in a non-therapeutic manner. God punishes, has wrath and anger and fury, and I feel that Augustine and Anselm are often quite true to Scripture. I am having real trouble adjusting to the mindset of the East on these matters.

Revelation 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!”

Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Romans 12:19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.

Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.

The priesthood of Israel's blood sacrifices and the Scapegoat point toward an appeasement of wrath and attempt to satiate God's wrath until the Saviour comes. Isaiah 53 shows this facet of things as well.

I think the Orthodox responses, however, on this thread are very well-done and helpful in analyzing this topic. Very helpful. Mercarius's post is excellent though I'm still of a very Western mindset on this...

 

[Nanopants]

There is just too much in the Bible that speaks of God's wrath, IMHO, in a non-therapeutic manner. God punishes, has wrath and anger and fury, and I feel that Augustine and Anselm are often quite true to Scripture. I am having real trouble adjusting to the mindset of the East on these matters.

Now I'm confused on the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy on this issue.

I thought Augustine promoted impassibility, which suggests that God does not experience emotions, as if God is disconnected in a sense from happenings of this world.

 

[truthseeker32]

I was really on a roll with my journey to Orthodoxy but a tremendous speed bump came my way---wrath....then predestination....then the doctrines on hell....and ultimately atonement. I'm coming to the realization that I'm more of a Roman Catholic than I ever realized...What was a 90% chance of conversion about 2 months ago is now about 30% I'd say.

There is just too much in the Bible that speaks of God's wrath, IMHO, in a non-therapeutic manner. God punishes, has wrath and anger and fury, and I feel that Augustine and Anselm are often quite true to Scripture. I am having real trouble adjusting to the mindset of the East on these matters.

How do you define wrath?

What differences do you see between the RCC and EOC on the teachings of hell, predestination, and wrath?

 

[ArmyMatt]

God punishes, has wrath and anger and fury,

we don't deny this. anger and wrath are very real aspects of love, when love is confronted with evil or rebellion. so God will punish and chasten those who struggle against Him, but that act of punishment is His love, exposing and condemning and judging the sin. it can be an awesome and terrifying thing to be with one who loves you.

 

[Nick T]

we don't deny this. anger and wrath are very real aspects of love, when love is confronted with evil or rebellion. so God will punish and chasten those who struggle against Him, but that act of punishment is His love, exposing and condemning and judging the sin. it can be an awesome and terrifying thing to be with one who loves you.

Indeed, it is certain elements in the West, not the East, with their hellenistic philosophical ideas of the impassibility of God that deny his wrath truly exists.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

ya we know that God is love from the bible, that is his nature. His nature cannot contradict itself. Nowhere in the bible does it say that God is wrath, or God is anger, etc. Love is much more than an emotion, it is a state of being for God, in communion with the Holy Trinity.

 

[SoulFoodEater]

I was really on a roll with my journey to Orthodoxy but a tremendous speed bump came my way---wrath....then predestination....then the doctrines on hell....and ultimately atonement. I'm coming to the realization that I'm more of a Roman Catholic than I ever realized...What was a 90% chance of conversion about 2 months ago is now about 30% I'd say.

There is just too much in the Bible that speaks of God's wrath, IMHO, in a non-therapeutic manner. God punishes, has wrath and anger and fury, and I feel that Augustine and Anselm are often quite true to Scripture. I am having real trouble adjusting to the mindset of the East on these matters.

The Eastern Fathers also spoke about God's wrath as being real, this wasn't just for the West. But the Eastern Fathers all did not agree in what they said doctrinally, the only thing they all really agreed upon is Nicene Creed, because this is the most important doctrine. The Holy Fathers (east and west) all had different interpretations of the Scriptures, they also had different interpretations of the wrath of God.

Revelation 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!”

Sola Scriptura is a heresy according to Eastern Orthodoxy, we don't take all of the Bible and especially the book of Revelation literally; Eastern Orthodoxy rejects Sola Scriptura.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Indeed, it is certain elements in the West, not the East, with their hellenistic philosophical ideas of the impassibility of God that deny his wrath truly exists.

hmm do we not assert impassibility of God also? I just never put much thought to this, but it seems that some in this thread have suggested that God does not have emotions, etc. except in the person of Christ.

 

[Nanopants]

The impression I'm getting this far is that the Orthodox view is that God is love and is unchanging, except perhaps in that the manifestations of love in this physical realm can appear to be very different, and wrathful in some cases.

 

[Nick T]

hmm do we not assert impassibility of God also? I just never put much thought to this, but it seems that some in this thread have suggested that God does not have emotions, etc. except in the person of Christ.

Listening to Fr. Hopko, the difference appears to be in the essence-energies distinction; while we agree that God's essence is impassible and unknowable his "modes of operation", that is the way he interacts with the world, are just as much real. Basically the way God operates in the world are not just analogies but rather very real and very divine. So while wrath cannot be an attribute of the Divine essence when we experience God's wrath (which as others have explained is in fact another form of the Divine love) we are still experiencing God in a very real way.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Very lucid and helpful analysis, Matt. Thanks.

we don't deny this. anger and wrath are very real aspects of love, when love is confronted with evil or rebellion. so God will punish and chasten those who struggle against Him, but that act of punishment is His love, exposing and condemning and judging the sin. it can be an awesome and terrifying thing to be with one who loves you.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Listening to Fr. Hopko, the difference appears to be in the essence-energies distinction; while we agree that God's essence is impassible and unknowable his "modes of operation", that is the way he interacts with the world, are just as much real. Basically the way God operates in the world are not just analogies but rather very real and very divine. So while wrath cannot be an attribute of the Divine essence when we experience God's wrath (which as others have explained is in fact another form of the Divine love) we are still experiencing God in a very real way.

I see, so what we call wrath is our experience of God, and not a description of his nature, as he knows himself?

 

[Nick T]

I see, so what we call wrath is our experience of God, and not a description of his nature, as he knows himself?

I think it would be more accurate to say that what we call wrath is a part of God's divine energies aka his modes of operation (the way he operates in the universe) but not his essence. Both his essence and energies are wholly divine and both truly exist but we can only experience his energies.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

of course, yes...

 

[Ortho_Cat]

But then is Divine Love a part of his essence, as he knows Himself?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Me putting up some quotes from Scripture doesn't mean I believe in Sola Scriptura. Hopefully I'm not a heretic LOL...We all quote Scripture in here all the time (that's a good thing!) without necessarily ignoring the Fathers, Tradition, and other factors...

The Eastern Fathers also spoke about God's wrath as being real, this wasn't just for the West. But the Eastern Fathers all did not agree in what they said doctrinally, the only thing they all really agreed upon is Nicene Creed, because this is the most important doctrine. The Holy Fathers (east and west) all had different interpretations of the Scriptures, they also had different interpretations of the wrath of God.




Sola Scriptura is a heresy according to Eastern Orthodoxy, we don't take all of the Bible and especially the book of Revelation literally; Eastern Orthodoxy rejects Sola Scriptura.

 

[Ceridwen]

anger and wrath are very real aspects of love, when love is confronted with evil or rebellion. so God will punish and chasten those who struggle against Him, but that act of punishment is His love, exposing and condemning and judging the sin. it can be an awesome and terrifying thing to be with one who loves you.

But the Bible teaches that God answers evil with evil: "The LORD will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you." Joshua 23:15 (New International Version). If the Bible is true, how do these words describe God's loving illumination or loving punishment?

The LORD will bring on certain people all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed them.