Worldliness

[imperfectchristian]

Hi Twigy,

It all sounds nice what you have said above, but I was never taught that "holiness" is brought about "by our own effort and ability to live Godly", and I don't think anyone else was taught that either. That sort of belief and attitude comes from false teaching and the doctrines of demons of philosophy of empty deceit and milk.

I was certainly taught that growing up to varying degrees, and I think you would be suprised how many others have been led to believe this which is one of the major reasons many people avoid God and the church....because they feel they cannot live up to it. I know this is the reason I avoided the church for a long time.

As far as it being demonic...I would not give the devil so much credit nor would I paint those who teach such things in such dark terms...I think it is more so a lack of understanding. As for it being milk...it is anything, but that...seeing it is a harsh and heavy doctrine.

"Faith" comes from hearing HIS WORD, not from quickneing our mortal bodies, and salvation has nothing to do with "holiness".

The Holy Spirit is the one who quickens our mortal bodies and one cannot divorce salvation from holiness as if they are totally separate things and be in keeping with Scripture. They are much more a part of each other than modern some well meaning parts of protestant Christianity proclaims.

I was taught that "holiness" is a character of being holy, a form of Godliness through being righteous, sinless, forgiving, loving, patient, self-controlled, faithful, gentle, good, kind, joyful and peaceful, which are HIS two commandments and the "Fruit of the Spirit".

I would agree.

And I would say that if we all majored in HIS two Commandments and the Fruit of the Spirit, then what else could anyone say about our "character".

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

I would agree with this as well. However there is a fatal flaw in modern Christian thinking. It is the flaw of self effort to bring about the desired results. 1st Corinthians 13 touches at the heart of this issue.

Speak in tongues of men and angels

Faith to move mountains

The gift of prophecy

The understanding of mysteries

Giving our body to burned

etc...

Without love they are ultimately worthless just as you pointed out...but where so many get tripped up is in what gives us the ability to love.

It is the principle of the Spirit filled life. A person gets Spirit filled not by loving, but by truly believing, receiving and walking in God's love.

When we truly believe, receive and walk in God's love for us, these the other qualities of the Christian life come as a direct result.

What truly defines legalism is not unrealistic expectations of ourselves and those around us, but expectation itself in relation to our standing with God. Many Christians have no problem accepting the part where faith justifies us, but many Christians do have difficulty with the part of faith sanctifying us.

Holiness, salvation and the "Spirit filled" life is not about what we can do, but living in the revelation knowledge of what God has already done. This place is entered into, walked in and lived out by genuine faith.

The reason God made the children of Israel roam the wilderness for 40 years, was not because of their inability to be holy (although at times that tended to be a result), but the inability to enter by faith.

Most Christians are still roaming in the wilderness of self sanctification, instead of receiving the sanctification that comes by faith.


1st John 4:10

10 "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."

When we begin to live everyday by the Power of the indwelling Holy Spirit renewing to us the revelation knowledge of this truth, then we will automatically enter by faith into that which God has made available to us. A sanctified and holy life, full of grace, love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, self control...a joy unspeakable and full of glory.

 

[Giver]

Holiness, salvation and the "Spirit filled" life is not about what we can do, but living in the revelation knowledge of what God has already done. This place is entered into, walked in and lived out by genuine faith.

(2 Corinthians 5:9-10) “So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

 

[imperfectchristian]

(2 Corinthians 5:9-10) “So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

How about some context to that Scripture.


2nd Corinthians 5:6-21

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.


16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Giver]

How about some context to that Scripture.


2nd Corinthians 5:6-21

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.


16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

That only confirms; if a person knows God they will not sin. If a person continues to sin they are not being led by the Holy Spirit. Lets keep is simple. One can not be of God and sin.

 

[imperfectchristian]

If a person continues to sin they are not being led by the Holy Spirit.

I agree with this part. The rest of what you said I think needs to be rephrased.

 

[razzelflabben]

That only confirms; if a person knows God they will not sin. If a person continues to sin they are not being led by the Holy Spirit. Lets keep is simple. One can not be of God and sin.

when we do word studies we find that to know does not mean the same thing as being saved, or introduced to someone. To know God means to be intimate with Him, which is where the Holy Spirit comes in.

Ah well, studying the word seems to be a lost art.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Dear Giver,

I owe you an apology. When you first started posting here, I must be honest, your posts annoyed the fire out of me. However, your posts have helped me see how I have held a grudge over past hurts in certain areas and how it had impaired my walk with the Lord.

I don't agree with all of your viewpoints...or perhaps it is the way you convey some of your viewpoints (i'm not sure), but I do want to thank you for sharing here. You have been a blessing to me.

 

[JimB]

The only occurrences of “worldly” in the KJV are Titus 2.12 and Heb. 9.1 . According to Vine the word is kosmikos"pertaining to this world," is used (a) in Heb. 9:1, of the tabernacle, AV, "wordly," RV, "of this world" (i.e., made of mundane materials, adapted to this visible world, local and transitory); (b) in Tit. 2:12, ethically, of "worldly lusts," or desires.

To be “worldly” is to set your affection, not on things above, but on the things of this earth (Col. 3.2, below).

1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him. (Colossians 2)
​

~Jim

“We were made not primarily that we may love God but that God may love us, that we may become objects in which the divine love may rest ‘well pleased.’” ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[Giver]

Dear Giver,

I owe you an apology. When you first started posting here, I must be honest, your posts annoyed the fire out of me. However, your posts have helped me see how I have held a grudge over past hurts in certain areas and how it had impaired my walk with the Lord.

I don't agree with all of your viewpoints...or perhaps it is the way you convey some of your viewpoints (i'm not sure), but I do want to thank you for sharing here. You have been a blessing to me.

I appreciate you words apology, thank you. My wife keeps reminding me that I am not the most sensitive person in the world. I try to explain to her that is probably why Jesus chose me to give the word that I am giving. A sensitive person would just be hurt too much. Jesus had me in training for many years. I was a successful life insurance agent.

 

[Leah]

I think your question is one of the most important thing we all need to ask of ourselves.

(1 John 3:17-19) “If a man who was rich enough in this world’s goods saw that one of his brothers was in need, but closed his heart to him, how could the love of God be living in him, how could the love of God be living in him? My Children our love is not to be just words or mere talk, but something real and active; only by this can we be certain that we are children to the truth, and be able to quieten our conscience in his presence, whatever accusations it may raise against us, because God is greater than our conscience and he knows everything.”

Personally I believe being of the world is; wanting things the world has to offer: Possessions, power, improper sexual pleasures, self-pride, trusting in army/police, trusting in money. There are probably more things that describe one being of the world, but I believe living in a Christian community that is being led by the Holy Spirit would eliminate most of what keeps a person in the world.

THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTION.

 

[Leah]

Holiness is an ongoing work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in each our lives as believers in Jesus that we are to co-operate with.

Where many Christians go wrong is that they are taught that holiness is brought about by our own effort and ability to live Godly. This is a futile approach. The only way we can each be sanctified and made more holy is in yielding to and following the leading of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Because of the weakness of our sinful nature, we are not able to bring about holiness in ourselves through our own self discipline and keeping of rules and laws.

Rather we are to yield to the Holy Spirit's leading and work in our lives.

The same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells within the believer. and if that same Spirit indwells us then that same Spirit will quicken our mortal bodies. We enter into this work in the same way that we received salvation from our sins....through faith.

I'm beginning to understand this more and more, even in the midst of my mess-ups.

Thank you for posting this.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

Hi Twigy,

It all sounds nice what you have said above, but I was never taught that "holiness" is brought about "by our own effort and ability to live Godly", and I don't think anyone else was taught that either. That sort of belief and attitude comes from false teaching and the doctrines of demons of philosophy of empty deceit and milk.

"Faith" comes from hearing HIS WORD, not from quickneing our mortal bodies, and salvation has nothing to do with "holiness".

I was taught that "holiness" is a character of being holy, a form of Godliness through being righteous, sinless, forgiving, loving, patient, self-controlled, faithful, gentle, good, kind, joyful and peaceful, which are HIS two commandments and the "Fruit of the Spirit".

And I would say that if we all majored in HIS two Commandments and the Fruit of the Spirit, then what else could anyone say about our "character".

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

*red - yes it did.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

I think your question is one of the most important thing we all need to ask of ourselves.

(1 John 3:17-19) “If a man who was rich enough in this world’s goods saw that one of his brothers was in need, but closed his heart to him, how could the love of God be living in him, how could the love of God be living in him? My Children our love is not to be just words or mere talk, but something real and active; only by this can we be certain that we are children to the truth, and be able to quieten our conscience in his presence, whatever accusations it may raise against us, because God is greater than our conscience and he knows everything.”

Personally I believe being of the world is; wanting things the world has to offer: Possessions, power, improper sexual pleasures, self-pride, trusting in army/police, trusting in money. There are probably more things that describe one being of the world, but I believe living in a Christian community that is being led by the Holy Spirit would eliminate most of what keeps a person in the world.

THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING MY QUESTION.

Hi Imana, but can you hear what Giver just said? Even Giver's sign line is excellent!

 

[Jesus Is Real]

Dear Giver,

I owe you an apology. When you first started posting here, I must be honest, your posts annoyed the fire out of me. However, your posts have helped me see how I have held a grudge over past hurts in certain areas and how it had impaired my walk with the Lord.

I don't agree with all of your viewpoints...or perhaps it is the way you convey some of your viewpoints (i'm not sure), but I do want to thank you for sharing here. You have been a blessing to me.

The only occurrences of “worldly” in the KJV are Titus 2.12 and Heb. 9.1 . According to Vine the word is kosmikos"pertaining to this world," is used (a) in Heb. 9:1, of the tabernacle, AV, "wordly," RV, "of this world" (i.e., made of mundane materials, adapted to this visible world, local and transitory); (b) in Tit. 2:12, ethically, of "worldly lusts," or desires.

To be “worldly” is to set your affection, not on things above, but on the things of this earth (Col. 3.2, below).

1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him. (Colossians 2)
​

~Jim

“We were made not primarily that we may love God but that God may love us, that we may become objects in which the divine love may rest ‘well pleased.’” ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

Excellent - for both gentle men.

 

[Seeking Him]

Remember what Paul said about the world. That he boasted in the cross of our Lord, by which he was crucified to the world. He had such confidence in the power of the cross, by which we die to the world. This was a real experience for him, one that he truly lived! If he could, so can we.

I think the more we hear and receive the impartation of the power of the cross, we'll experience being crucified to the world more. What the Almighty did for us in His death, makes us more than conquerers. His graces flow towards us from the cross, its real, and it's for us.

 

[Leah]

Remember what Paul said about the world. That he boasted in the cross of our Lord, by which he was crucified to the world. He had such confidence in the power of the cross, by which we die to the world. This was a real experience for him, one that he truly lived! If he could, so can we.

I think the more we hear and receive the impartation of the power of the cross, we'll experience being crucified to the world more. What the Almighty did for us in His death, makes us more than conquerers. His graces flows towards us from the cross, its real, and it's for us.

Its great that you mention this because God brought something to my attention the morning before while I was reading Romans 7 & 8 and just a couple of hours ago.

All my sins, from the least to the greatest of them (regardless when I sin), have been crucified on the cross. And because I've accepted Christ and Lord and Savior, I too have been crucified with Him. I don't have to try to do anything to earn His forgiveness nor heaven. Although I still see to it that I do right (since the bible says that no one born of God sins because His seed is in him/her), all I have to do now is rest and live by faith. God, through His spirit, does the rest. My actions does not now nor will they ever save me (since the whole message of the cross is to exclude all boasting in self), but sure enough is evidence of my living faith in Christ.

It seems so amazing to me because all this time I thought I had to do stuff to get God's attention and do what He promised. But little did I realize that all that He promised was right there under my nose and all I had to do was grab hold of it. And I said to myself "God.....is it really that simple? I don't have to do anything anymore except rest and believe?" And at first, it was hard for me to fully accept that, cuz all this time I was, in all actually, depending upon my own works for the promise and to be justified. But Christ did it all already not only for me, but for everyone. All we have to do is believe. To even think that we have to do something to earn God's grace and all His promises is...wrong, in a number of ways! None of us can do any greater than what Jesus already did. Isn't that what the bible teaches and aint this what the gospel is? While your actions don't save, nor entitle you from anything, they are proof of just how much faith you have in Christ (we should remember this when we interact with people, especially) And genuine faith, in Him, can't be dead to morality or barren to good works.

I guess because of God helping me out with this, spreading the gospel won't be as difficult now. Cuz its kinda hard to share something you don't even understand, yourself. Right?


However, I still have another question now. If its all that simple, then how come there's still so many people without Christ??

 

[Leah]

And one more thing: the cross also teaches me to understand that no one is a better or greater christian than the next person just because you don't do all that 'bad stuff' they do or if you do 'more good things' than what they do. All sins, from the smallest to the biggest, have been crucified.

 

[Seeking Him]

And one more thing: the cross also teaches me to understand that no one is a better or greater christian than the next person just because you don't do all that 'bad stuff' they do or if you do 'more good things' than what they do. All sins, from the smallest to the biggest, have been crucified.

I agree, amen! For years I was never taught anything about the finished work of Christ on the cross. I knew I had experienced it as a convert, but then quickly I became confused,. I was hearing teachings that were oriented towards the "self" and focus was always put on what I had to do rather than learning about the full provision of the New Covenant. It was draining and I wasn't receiving spiritual life. Then I started hearing the good news all over again. All that Christ did for me. From that, I learned, comes the spiritual power to live the life God wants me to live. The cross is the power of God! Instead of head knowledge, it started to become heart knowledge.

Your so right, it is the simplicity of the gospel, like Paul said. When the rivers of living water are flowing out of us, we are truly in union with Christ, and He becomes so real!

 

[razzelflabben]

I agree, amen! For years I was never taught anything about the finished work of Christ on the cross. I knew I had experienced it as a convert, but then quickly I became confused,. I was hearing teachings that were oriented towards the "self" and focus was always put on what I had to do rather than learning about the full provision of the New Covenant. It was draining and I wasn't receiving spiritual life. Then I started hearing the good news all over again. All that Christ did for me. From that, I learned, comes the spiritual power to live the life God wants me to live. The cross is the power of God! Instead of head knowledge, it started to become heart knowledge.

Your so right, it is the simplicity of the gospel, like Paul said. When the rivers of living water are flowing out of us, we are truly in union with Christ, and He becomes so real!

I am not sure I should be getting into this right now, but I am confused, can you all clarify for me?

I believe that righteousness and Godliness are things that only come through the Lord, by way of the Holy Spirit, but that that doesn't remove from us the need to obey, and submit to that Spirit. To which I have been told by some here that I am wrong, we have nothing to do because Christ did it all on the cross. So I come here and read a post very much like I would have written which says that though I need to obey and learn to submit, it is the power of God revealed within and through me that the power to be obedient comes from the Holy Spirit. Of which the poster was told, that is right, but I am told I have it wrong. Which is it that some of you all are promoting, that there is nothing, no responsiblities we have, or that the responsibility is twofold, my responsibility to allow God to work through me? I really can't follow what you all are trying to get at....

 

[Giver]

I agree, amen! For years I was never taught anything about the finished work of Christ on the cross. I knew I had experienced it as a convert, but then quickly I became confused,. I was hearing teachings that were oriented towards the "self" and focus was always put on what I had to do rather than learning about the full provision of the New Covenant. It was draining and I wasn't receiving spiritual life. Then I started hearing the good news all over again. All that Christ did for me. From that, I learned, comes the spiritual power to live the life God wants me to live. The cross is the power of God! Instead of head knowledge, it started to become heart knowledge.

Your so right, it is the simplicity of the gospel, like Paul said. When the rivers of living water are flowing out of us, we are truly in union with Christ, and He becomes so real!

(1 Peter 4:16-19) “However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.”