Women: career & family

[Cherub8]

Moreover, as pointed out before, sometimes there is little choice.

I agree.

 

[okiemommy26]

I did not expect her to conform. I encouraged her to follow the path she thinks is right, and never once passed judgement on her. While I personally believe her plans are not from God, I also gave her the benefit of the doubt.

How do you know her plans are not from God. The only plans from God you know are your own. You don't know what God is telling her to do unless she tells you. Yeah you gave her the benefit of the doubt but it doesn't mean you actually believed her.

 

[PaladinValer]

How do you know her plans are not from God. The only plans from God you know are your own. You don't know what God is telling her to do unless she tells you. Yeah you gave her the benefit of the doubt but it doesn't mean you actually believed her.

I double what Okiemommy26 says and back her up entirely. Who are you to tell us what God thinks? Are you suddenly better than and holier than Job? Are you more righteous than he was? I highly doubt it, and boy did he get a thrashing for his insolence directly from God Himself.

Paying lip service to a person you supposedly loved is absolutely inforgiveable. How dare you! Have you no shame? It is this kind of pietism that causes extreme forms of feminism. You want that kind of feminism to end? You need to change yourself because you fuel the fire.

If you truly loved this person, you wouldn't have treated her like that.

 

[Shannonkish]

Cherub....

I think you are misunderstanding a few things.

First of all, just because a woman is in a career that does not mean that she is neglecting her "wifely duties" or her family in any way. You equate have a career with that. That would be similar to someone equating blacks with criminals (note, I am not equating them, I am using this as an example) It isn't always true.

Yes, there are women who neglected their familes for the sake of a career, just as there are men who have done the same. But just because some black people have committed crimes does not mean the whole of the black race are criminals. It is a sterotyping. What you are doing is sterotyping women who have careers and a family.

Your claim that 99% of the time women who have careers neglect their families is NOT an accurate statistic and I would advise that any statistics used be supported with objective evidence.

As someone who will have a career and a family, I believe that it is entirely possible for a woman to have both and succeed at both.

Your ideals and chosen lifestyle are great and I don't think that anyone here is trying to attack you or tell you that you are making the wrong decisions. However, your lifestyle choices are not for everyone. As a woman, I see things a lot differently than you do and I know that my lifestyle choices will be different than yours. You cannot come here and expect those of us who disagree with you to change our lifestyles or expect us to completely understand your lifestyle choices.

At the same time, you can't be closeminded about other lifestyle choices.

 

[Cherub8]

I double what Okiemommy26 says and back her up entirely. Who are you to tell us what God thinks? Are you suddenly better than and holier than Job? Are you more righteous than he was? I highly doubt it, and boy did he get a thrashing for his insolence directly from God Himself.

It's a shame that you pass judgement upon me, especially considering you know so little of the situation - only what I've stated thus far. She not once said her plans are from God. Yet I respected her wishes nonetheless and did not attempt to persuade her to do otherwise. In fact, I encouraged her.

Paying lip service to a person you supposedly loved is absolutely inforgiveable. How dare you! Have you no shame? It is this kind of pietism that causes extreme forms of feminism. You want that kind of feminism to end? You need to change yourself because you fuel the fire.

I did not pay lip service. I gave her the benefit of the doubt and encouraged her to follow her heart. God had brought the relationship to an end, and I wanted to close it on the best terms possible.

If you truly loved this person, you wouldn't have treated her like that.

I treated her with respect. I'm far from perfect, but by God's grace we managed to bring the relationship to a close with not a harsh word spoken. We both encouraged each other to what God wants us to do, while both being hurt. So, I think it was actually ended rather gracefully. I am not the monster you accuse me of being.

Yet I suspect that she was, to some degree or another, disregarding God's authority. She made numerous conflicting statements in regards to her view on gender roles. There were other circumstances as well, but none which I care to share. Just know that I held none of that against her. I encouraged her, said that I'll remember her, and pray for her always - the end.

 

[Cherub8]

Shannonkish, fair enough. We shall agree to disagree.
Currently, I don't think this conversion is going anywhere but down hill...

 

[Shannonkish]

Cherub, I think a lot of the reason it is going downhill is because you are taking a defensive position and feel as if everyone is attacking you. I have not seen one person attack you yet, but your posts indicate that you feel attacked.

 

[Cherub8]

I feel that I am being attacked. I got blasted without delay in the other topic. Responses have often been heavily emotional and judgemental. If you look back, you'll see that I spent time and applied the Bible, yet almost every response to me thus far has been based on pure emotion - not the Bible. I see no reason to continue this, because it is accomplishing nothing constructive. This wasn't supposed to be a political debate.

 

[Shannonkish]

I got blasted without delay in the other topic.

The other topic and this one are different topics.... with different people in them. Therefore you cannot base your feelings of being attacked in this topic on those of the other topic.

This is the internet. You cannot read emotion into words on the screen. What you see as anger, someone else may see as cheerful. Therefore, one must not use emotion or assume emotion in posting on the internet!

Every response has not bee pure emotion. I have seen no emotion in any of the posts in this thread, other than yours. If you look back, we have all spent time and applied the bible as well as our personal thoughts, convictions and experiences.

No one has judged you in this topic. Perhaps this judgement you are feeling is more of a guilt feeling that comes from yourself rather than those in this forum? (Sorry, speaking as a psych major)

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Yep, I think feminism was a GOOD thing. Yes, like everything else, it had it's faults, but without it - I couldn't vote, hold property, be taught in a place of education, and my job (nursing) would still be held as a job for prostitutes and 'women of low morals'. I also wouldn't be on the forum - because I'd be illiterate. We also wouldn't have had such developments as radiotherapy for cancer patients (Marie Curie), star classification systems (Annie Cannon), the banning of DDT in the USA (Rachel Carson), the isolation of Glucose and problems when it doesn't function properly (Gerty Cori), the discovery of DNA's density and spherical shape (Rosalind Franklin) or have had the building blocks for Workplace Health and Safety (Alice Hamilton). I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

Without feminism (which allowed women to be educated the same as men, and allowed them to pursue more 'masculine' careers), many things we take for granted nowadays would not have occurred.

And yes, you did not 'single out' ONE particular person, but in essence you did. Your tone states that any of us women who choose to work outside of the home (your ex-fiance included) after marriage and then after children, are wrong, and those of us whose husbands want to stay at home are also wrong. Have you ever heard of working from home for men? MANY jobs in the computer fields allow people to work from home now - would you have a problem with a man who chose to stay at home, and managed to make a career out of it as well?

A lot of people say a blanket statement like 'feminism is bad', without realising the initial goals of it, and what we would be without if these women hadn't fought for equality when it came to education and career. Most think of the radical feminists, which crop images up of unwashed, hairy, cropped haired lesbians! Trust me - I know a lot of women whose ideas would be in essence 'feministic', but they don't look like that!

Cherub, how is it, when my children are at school from 8:30-3pm, and I'm working from 9-2, that I am not being a good wife or mother? How can you say that not teaching them at home is a bad idea, when I certainly DON'T have the ability, nor the patience, to teach them according to what my state's board says is required for each grade? I've seen a lot of home school kids become very insulated, and are unable to achieve the grades later on to get into degrees that they REALLY want. I do not want to do that to my children - if my daughter wants to get into medicine, I don't want want my lack of ability to teach her past the basics of chemistry and physics to stop her!

Cherub, I have no problem with you stating that that is what YOU want your wife to want as well (and if you find her - WOW! It would be a very rare woman - at least in Australia - who would do that), but when you start saying that anything OTHER than that idea is wrong, well, um, I've read my bible, and it's got LOADS of examples of happy women who are married, and yet still are fulfilling themselves outside of the home, each and every day.

Sasch

 

[Thithy]

I have a question for you. Let's say I get married (which one day I do plan on doing), but I don't really want kids, however, my husband does. This is something that he could not live without. So me the good wife Submits to her husband and has a couple children. Would it be so horrible of me to continue my career and him to stay home (or be home more often) than me? Let's say my job pays much better than his. Would it be wrong for me to work and him to not? I know you have said you find it an abomination for that to happen, but I don't like kids. I don't want to stay home, but since I did by Godly duty by submitting to my husband and having them is that a problem? Maybe God has called him to stay home. Maybe he's much better and teaching children than I would be. I think it would be wrong of me to stay home with the children all day long.
Maybe I'm a bit biased because that's how I was raised. My mom pursued her career while my dad did work as much and was home with me and my brother. Are you saying that my family is an abomination? (Just curious, not being defensive, just want to understand the way you think, which I think I'm figuring out more and more as I read more posts). Personally I prefered it this way. My dad is much better with children than my mom. In fact our situation is one very similar to what I described above. My mom never really wanted children but my dad kind of did (he didn't pressure her though).

I'm just curious why you see it as so wrong for the father to raise the children. I understand that you believe the bible says it's this way, but the way men and women think today are so radically different from back then. A women wouldn't dream of working then, whereas now it's become a norm.

Well I think I've gone on for long enough now. I'll enjoy reading your response.

 

[the_man]

My dream is to marry a homemaker and start having children right away - that, I know, is a desire the Lord has placed on my heart.

This, I believe, is a handcuff for those of us that have read you OP. I say that because no one is going to argue with you once you say that this 'is a desire that the Lord has placed on your heart' (i.e. to have kids right away).

If your future husband can take care of you and your family, what purpose is there in working outside the home? That is what I want to know. I just do not understand why this has happened to me.

Well, the first quote that I pointed out would explain why it's happening to you no? It's not like this girl said that she didn't want children at all, she said she didn't want them right away. And since that is something God has put on her hurt, then ofcourse meeting a woman who doesn't desire such is not going to work out. Since it's a desire God has placed on your heart, He will bring along the woman He wants you to marry and she will desire the same thing.

 

[sweetlambofgod]

some women want to work!

 

[Thithy]

I can kind of see where he's coming from. There is a HUGE difference between working and having a career. Working implys just having a job, whereas a career means someone who is looking to move up in the business they are working in. Maybe I'm dumb but that just now hit me. Maybe it will help clear some things up for other people. He's not talking about the mom who's working at min. wage trying to get money to put food in her kids mouth, he's talking about (or I'm assuming) the women who wants to for example be the ceo of a company someday, or any other high up position.

 

[Cherub8]

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

He's not talking about the mom who's working at min. wage trying to get money to put food in her kids mouth,

That is correct.
Sascha's mom is the perfect example.

he's talking about (or I'm assuming) the women who wants to for example be the ceo of a company someday, or any other high up position.

Precisely. As I said awhile back, I think it's great if a mom can find a way to generate income. I think this is reflected in Proverbs 31. What I oppose, however, is the career, because I view it as outside of God's plan for wives.

 

[Cordy]

That makes even less sense to me. Think about these ideas in reality. A family needs or chooses the mother to work. Is it better for the family if the mother has to work over 40 hours a week in two jobs, (while the dad might have to do the same) just so they can barely pay the bills, while, of course, not being able to spend much time with their kids because she is wasting her day in menial labour. Or, might it perhaps be better for a woman to have a little education under her belt, so that when she works (whether she needs to or wants to), she can work more reasonable hours, yet be able to provide more amply for the family and also be able to spend time with her kids?

I am honestly shocked that anyone would wish the former on a family. Yet, saying that a woman should not pursue an education or have a career limits her options and often puts them in that position. A career and education will provide greater opportunity for the second, but simply jumping out unprepared into the work force will provide the first.

 

[Cordy]

I would be very interested to learn about your own upbringing, cherub8 – to learn how you were raised in regards to parents working, schooling situations etc?

 

[Cherub8]

mbams, it depends on how much a person is willing to place their trust in God. He has shown in the Bible what He intends for husbands and wives. Do you know better than God? Perhaps instead of taking a pragmatic approach to everything, we should trust in the Lord. If your husband were called into the mission field, but money was a concern, would you discourage him from fulfilling his purpose based on the pragmatic facts of the situation? The Christian life is not a pragmatic one; in fact, it defies all human reasoning.

How was I raised? I was raised both ways. The first eight years of my life were terrible. Care to guess under which arrangement that was? My parents made the best of the situation, but it was terrible nonetheless.

 

[Cordy]

Cherub8,
Just because people trust in the Lord doesn’t mean they throw their brains out the window. We are not called to sit idle and say “the lord will save me”. He provides for us in ways like giving us brains, able bodies, talents, and the ability to work! You seem to insinuate that by me not agreeing with you, I don't trust God or believe the Bible. That is not in the case, as I think I have made clear in my posts. I just don’t believe the Bible says what you state. I also believe that God wouldn’t contradict Himself. If women were never supposed to have careers or work, and that it is the abomination you say it is, then why do so many need to do it? Why does God provide jobs for women who need money? Why are so many blessed as a result of their workings?

I am a descendant of a long line of proletariat women. We have learned that you can spend as much time on your knees as you want, but don’t expect things to fall from the sky. Sometimes things do, but if we only look for such kind provisions, we miss out on appreciating many practical blessings and provisions. We have been blessed with many gifts and provided with the ability to work, and we should make good use of what God has given us. My parents were poor and needed money. They prayed about it, and God provided my mom with a career – one that gave her flexibility to work her schedule around raising me.

I am also curious as to why you started this thread. You said you wanted to know how women plan on having a family as well as career. Yet, when they have answered you, no matter how wonderful their answers explaining how it would work, you have basically said that women who try to pursue both are wrong - that all of as career women are wrong. What is the point?

 

[Thithy]

Oh dear, now I've found myself between a rock and a hard place. I can see where you (cherub8) are coming from. However from the way I'm taking it, it almost seems that you plan on working and having a wonderful career while your wife goes around and takes care of the children, educates them, and cleans the house, pays the bills, and does whatever else a stay at home mom would do, while you go to work and come home and then do what?

Can I turn the question around for you? How do you plan on having a career and raising a family at the same time? I very much believe that children need not only an active mother, but also an active father in their life.

I'm also curious as to why you want to homeschool your children and for how long? I don't see anything wrong with it but I personally prefer sending the children to school. Not only will they become booksmart, but people smart. In the sense that they will be able to relate well with others, and learn it easier than someone who was homeschooled their whole life. I never when to public school, I attended private Christian school my entire life, and I feel that they helped enstill values in me. Not just the school, my parents were the most influencial, but by going to a Christian school I had an easier time keeping with my faith. And now that I"m going to a public college I can relate to all the people well, along with having a very stable faith.

But I guess my real question is how do you plan on raising a family and pursing a career at the same time?